SCENARIO: The Vietnam War Deluxe; 1965-1975

[Fredeye]

Okay EJ I give up. What are the two F-4s doing at Tra Vinh? I've spent a sick day on the net searching for any unit or Navy/Marine airbase other than Da Nang. There were a few Airbases in Nam but not directly south of Saigon.

Oh, and I do like this scenario by the way.

 

[Fredeye]

If any unit creators are interested...nobody has yet made a C-7 Carabou, M-50 Ontos nor a silver B-57 Canbara.

I've added several units to my copy to spuce it up. An OV-1 Mohawk that moves like a LRRP. Some A-5 Vigilantes (Recon only) to some of the aircraft carriers and RF-101s as well. I've also added two B-57 Squadrons (Bien Hoa), F-104 (Thailand) and F-102 (Saigon, Danang) detachments. These are all produced by special buildings located in Saigon or Danang.

I removed all the F-100s from Thailand since Super Sabres were actually deployed to South Vietnam in individual squadron detachments (i.e Air Force Reserve) simular to what the USAF does today. I replaced them with preplaced F-4s and F-105s...if you want to build more you have to wait for the advance.

I want to explore riverine combat, but I'm sure that all control is going to be up to "house rules"

 

[El Justo]

hello to all that may have paid attention to this thread in the past

been a while since i've looked at these files...but i hope to revisit this old pet project of mine pretty soon some streamlining and fixes are in store. lots of new unit gfx too.

 

[Ranger54]

Sounds great El Justo!

I've enjoyed this scenario in it's current form. Some of the new unit gfx that are out would look great in it.

What specifics do you have in mind for the update beyond the new units?

 

[El Justo]

thanks i want to try and fix some of the nagging problems like the bombing runs where there's no message, non-use of settlers by charlie, and some other small things (building sheets, some civp entries, clarity etc). i want to try to simplify things, for lack of a better term

 

[Ranger54]

thanks i want to try and fix some of the nagging problems like the bombing runs where there's no message, non-use of settlers by charlie, and some other small things (building sheets, some civp entries, clarity etc). i want to try to simplify things, for lack of a better term

Roger that.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The scenario captures the conflict very well IMO and is an enjoyable play.

 

[El Justo]

oh there are a few nagging things nothing major in terms of the revision. kinda like when you go to the dentist for a clean up, pain and all (for me at least).

 

[El Justo]

december 1, 2011 update

i've had these files open on my refurbished HD now for a few days. plan is to first reset the resources, polish them up a bit, add some perhaps. i have a preliminary list that i need to finalize.

looking to modify the map a little, mostly terrain adjustments in the south.

will probably wipe out city size 1 cities for both NV and SV and make the pcx sheet blank for that size 1...and then place resources onto the tile where the cities sit. now, this is mainly for NV and the charlie base camps. always hated seeing those size1 cities along the HCMT. i have an idea in mind that i want to try out. will probably be the first image preview once i can finagle it all. plan for SV is to get rid of the dixie and yankee stations and replace them with a single land tile...with a resource covering it in its entirety (water+CV probably). all cv aircraft will likely be spawned here. so no more rebasing the cv planes onto the carriers. they'll be spawned and available right there in the locations of dixie and yankee stations in the china sea. wip though.

considering choke points along the HCMT. another wip, need to game test this one pretty good.

i'm reworking the railroad gfx with my gimp it's the highway gfx. trying to recolor and resize some. i am a novice with this stuff. but i think i can get it to look the way i envision it.

another topic on my development burner is a new set of victory conditions. i'm considering a number of alternatives atm and i hope to share them soon

 

[Ares de Borg]

Good news. I'm sure you will love some of the upcoming stuff Wyrm has to offer (keep an eye on the db in the next few days).

 

[Fredeye]

I've been experimenting with different things on this scenario. For instance, I removed all the S. Vietnamese cities that really weren’t cities. The only cities I kept were the ones with large airfields in 1965. After US involvement, the MACV Commander (with approval) decided where the airfields went. I marked the S.VN border with markers. With these changes you are very reliant on Reconnaissance units (aircraft and ground) and make it easier for VC and NVA units to infiltrate deep within S.VN.
I have added a few units like the F-101 Voodoo (Air Recon) and the WMIK as an M151 Mutt (Ground Recon). I was working on an Air Cav unit that combined all the elements of Air Cavalry (Rifle platoon, air artillery etc.) but I really haven’t put much time in this as I have other things going on. When I get spare time, I usually fire-up AOI.

 

[toy4080]

Looking forward to the update - as well as new units from Wyrm.

 

[El Justo]

thanks for the comments all. i may not respond directly to all posts but i surely read them and definitely take all valued opinions into consideration

one of things i want to try to simulate is the unknown that was so much of the battle for the americans in vietnam. by that i mean that i want to make it extremely difficult to conduct COIN op's in SV. of course, it's hard already. but i plan to introduce (i hope) a few new wrinkles.

first is to probably allow for culture flips. i'm going to have to do some work with this but i think i can get it right so long as i have to formula for culture flips at my side. it exists somewhere here on cfc (the actual algorithms used by the c3 designers).

second is to chop down the pre-placed culture values, get them down to single digits to start (except saigon and maybe a few other places in SV). it'll be as much a culture race, i hope, as a military race. map may look a little disjointed but it will fill in as the turns pile up.

been trying to formulate a more coherent set of victory conditions. and this is what i have so far:
2 types of victory - points (via unit kills and maybe some other variables) and mass regicide.

mass regicide is where you have to kill off all the King units in order to win. early brainstorming for me has NV starting with a bunch, all randomly placed via the editor setting. NV would then spawn some more over the course of the scenario. not sure what to use as these 'King' units. leaning towards war materiel at the moment. not sure yet, not even sure if this Mass Regicide theory would work. but it would put the SV side in a position to have to find the King units and kill them, likely with aircraft. not sure how to represent the SV King units. provincial chiefs? not sure. this is all very alpha-ish in its design form

worked over the weekend on a bunch of new resources and a new lineup. i'm actually making the icons myself scary, eh i got through about a half dozen of them so far. need to send them to my zen master first before i embarrass myself i'll post the new resource lineup in a day or two and hopefully some images. took me a few days to trim down the final roster of resources. it'll be 32 strat and luxury and a handful of bonus resources (maxed out on the strat and luxes at 32).

NV will probably get a few exclusive strategic resources, almost all of them placed up north in the red river delta. P-O-L, Rail Hub, NVAF Base, and Air Defense Stations (or something like that, ie radar, tracking etc). what do all of these have in common? they were all targets of american bombers. disconnect them from NV's trade routes and they won't be able to build special improvements and/or wonders that will likely spawn King units. one other special target for american bombers in NV, bridges, may be hard to simulate, or a little klunky. they were, however, probably the first targets, before P-O-L storage place, marshaling yards for rail cars coming in from china, and the air defense stuff. these resources will also be tied into the autoproduction wonders for NV. still all a WIP. so don't crush me yet

i'll probably add in some type of recon aircraft too.

i would like to try to experiment with unlocking the two sides from permanent war and mixing in a few hidden nationality units. definitely a WIP though. not even sure if it's feasible. the logic behind it is to encourage NV infiltration into SV via settlers (a broken feature of the last version). the AI will not expand it's empire with settler cities if it's at war...at least this is the gist i took from the last version. won't be able to get to this part until beta testing though.

forgot to mention this on previous posts but i am going to work on the SV biq first and then the NV one after that. some may recall that i had 2 biq files in the last version, one for SV and another for NV. there are subtle differences in each and i need to finish off one before moving onto the other one. so SV is leading off

 

[El Justo]

december 13, 2011 update

i managed to get a lot done over the last few days. first up is the new resource lineup. see attached. it's the first one. be kind on the quality of gfx i am a novice...although some came out pretty nice if i may say so most i made from scratch, others are by either Vuldacon or Pounder. here they are, from top left corner across.

row1: I Corps Tactical Zone, II Corps, III Corps, IV Corps (these replace the USA resource of old), Air Strip, Air Base, Fire Base, US Navy, South Vietnam, North Vietnam, Red River Delta, National Liberation Front

row2: P-O-L (petroleum, oils, lubricants; 2 are Vuldacon's, barrels are Pounder), Railway Hub, Radar Station, NVAF Base, Ho Chi Minh Trail Hub ( how cool is that? ), Port Facility (tough one to center on tile, Pounder's btw, not me), Village, Hamlet, Timber (Vuldacon), Cotton (V), Coal (V + mine gfx by Pounder), Thailand

row3: Rubber (V), Coffee (V), Sugar (V), Tobacco (V), Rice (V), Tea (V), VC Base Area I, and VC Base Area II (these last two may need some work), Fish [bonus resource]

i'll probably add a few more bonus resources to the end of the list.

quick hit on the potential game play ramifications for these new resources:

first 20 are strategic, last 12 are lux. all after that are bonus. this adheres to the 'dispel the phantom resources' protocol of lining all of the strat&lux resources into the top 32 (slots 0-31).

the CTZ resources will allow for the building of specific wonders (ie US and ally troop buildings) in specific areas. just another way to narrow down the focus.

air bases, air strips, and fire bases: sort of crappy gfx. did the best i could. would be tickled pink if someone out here in cyberspace thinks they can improve them here's the deal with them: AirBases that can be built by workers are invisible now (on the x_detect_airfield file. however, i intend to pre-place the worker-built airfields although there will be the resource gfx showing instead. this will allow for me to differentiate between air strips, air bases, and even fire bases (they had small runway strips capable of handling transport places and utility helos).

US Navy: kinda crappy, i know. my intention was to have it cover the entire tile (likely Plains, an island Plains tile, iow, single tile in middle of ocean). more blank/transparent tricks...blanking over city size 1 and using resource gfx to show instead which in this case, is the US Navy resource. it is intended to have it represent the two USN stations in the China Sea, Yankee and Dixie. it'll isolate carrier aircraft builds and could isolate some other naval builds as well. a WIP but conceptually, it seems like a go.

flags: most will be under cities. each of these were in the previous version; they just didn't have flag gfx to represent them (i used Gold for some reason). a huge aesthetic improvement in the long run. will be used like before to isolate certain builds, grant bonuses etc.

Red River Delta is specific to that region up north. liken it to a type of 'Industry' resource like with AoI. this region was the industrial heart of NV. will allow for some isolation stuff and bonuses.

National Liberation Front (NLF), aka Viet Cong, in English - South Vietnamese Communist (roughly, a shortened form). this is fka as the 'Ho hi Minh Trail' resource, that little hut thingy i used before. awful. much, much, much better now. these will be placed around SV and along the HCMT. be aware though - they'll be invisible to the SV player, at least until a certain point in the tech tree (little known fact about the Tet Offensive in '68: US & ARVN forces got a great deal of intel on VC sanctuaries after Tet. iow, their so-called uprising betrayed their positions and MACV was able to pinpoint their whereabouts and essentially destroyed the NLF/VC as a fighting forece after Tet).

P-O-L, Railway Hub, Radar Station, NVAF Base, Port Facility will be targets of opportunity for the USAF. most will be placed in the red river delta area, in the hanoi-hai phong corridor. these resources will probably be the required ones for a host of wonders for NV, especially king producing ones (in line with the mass regicide game mode) but also aircraft and air defense (mig's/SAM sites). again, this whole concept is a WIP. can't confirm anything yet but i eagerly await testing to see if this will fly.

lux resources are all indigenous to SE Asia. had to do a little digging and map examining to finalize the list. they'll enable resource-specific improvements like in AoI and my other stuff.

VC Base Area resources: two of them, one for grassy/jungle-ly/hilly terrain and another for mountainous. take a close look at them...as they will be what shows in place of size 1 city gfx. mash it all into the surrounding gfx...and it will be hard to see a WIP of course. but the intent is to fleece, or at least to play tricks on your eyes iow, finding VC Base Camps (ie size1 cities for NV along the HCMT and into SV) will not be easy.

screen2 is of IV Corps, south of Saigon and the Mekong Delta. i tidied it up some. airbase gfx don't look all that sexy. notice the chopped culture. Charlie owns the Countryside!

screen3: Mekong Delta, northern IV Corps. new rice paddy irrigation gfx looking fly on the AoI terrain

 

[El Justo]

been a while since i last gave an update. i've been kinda quiet here lately. but that means i'm busy working with everything. more time to mod rather than chat if you know what i mean.

i had been tweaking the map some around christmas. finished with the resources just prior to that. lately i've been working on the city improvements and wonders. i wanted to clean them up some, give both sides some balance, and to sort of streamline some things and remove any clunky-ness. xl spreadsheet package has helped with this. not much changes really. i tweaked it some, mostly the attributes of the buildings but not the lineup too much. some additions and subtractions but nothing wholesale.

my thinking for this part of the revision is to simplify the buildings for the player. by that i mean that i don't want to make it too confusing for the player.

as with many of my scenarios, there will be 'zones' of the map that have specific resources and allow for building certain improvements and wonders. there'll be the more urbanized areas like around saigon, hue, da nang, quang tri etc. and there's the areas outside of the urbanized spots, the countryside more or less. think mekong delta. there'll be a highlands region, sort of like the countryside regions. and of course, the areas occupied by the VC which will have the NLF resource. this is the ho chi minh trail region. all will have specific (and historic) city builds. north vietnam will have a similar arrangement as the south (a north vietnam resource, urban areas, countryside areas).


i should try and post a screen of the xl sheet i have. i just finished off the list last night and began modifying the buildings large and small sheets (grueling). for beta tests, i will have most cities on the map, in all regions, start out bare bones. the player and the AI will have to build them up. population for the cities will be controlled too via city improvements (ie countryside and highland cities for example won't be able to build the city imp that allows city size3). so the pop centers will be the bigger cities (mostly coastal lowlands for SV).
culture will be a bigger deal in this version. it was there for the last version but not balanced well enough for my tastes. culture will be bigger in v2 mainly b/c i want to try and see if culture flips can work. iow, the player will have to be extremely cognizant re building culture, especially away from the urban areas where charlie can make some hay. again, all historically accurate. the govt of SV basically only controlled the area around saigon and the coastal lowlands and parts of the highlands (which were bitterly contested and loaded with infiltration routes from the hcmt into sv). culture flipping will be a wip. so no promises. in a perfect world though, they're a no-brainer. it's the real hearts and minds campaign if you will

this'll all need a lot of testing to get it right. but i feel good about this r&d phase

 

[Ranger54]

How goes the battle El Justo?

 

[El Justo]

very well, sir thanks.

i am almost done with reformatting the buildings and wonders. i've done a good deal of gfx work with the buildings_large and buildings_small files. whole new files, many from scratch. it's tedious work but it will add to the in-game aesthetics and also be more descriptive. gone are the stock civ3 images.

i've also done a number on the map. scale remains the same but i scaled back some of the infrastructure things like irrigation and mines.

i'm about a week or so away from alpha testing

 

[Ranger54]

Thanks for the update.

I've recently picked up a collection of 50 documentaries made during the war. I've watched about a 1/4 of them so far. Strange looking back at how the Army/Navy/Air Force portrayed themselves back then. Going on about how the US was winning the war and would continue the fight until final victory. Too bad the government and people back home didn't see it that way. One of particular interest was one hosted by John Wayne. It pulled no punches in slamming the government for the restrictions placed on the military and forcing them to fight the war with one hand tied behind their back. Good stuff.

 

[El Justo]

another good one is McNamara's Fog of War. poor old guy finally had a chance to tell his side of it. very intriguing. lots of restrictions that drove the air force nuts. i am going to try to incorporate this some into the new version. wish me luck

 

[mrniceguy101]

I remember watching Wings over Vietnam that used to air on the Discovery channel as a kid and I remember even then being completely blown away by all the asinine rules of engagements that pilots had to abide by, if it's counter intuitive to a small child then you know it has to be all kinds of messed up.

 

[El Justo]

that was a good program it wasn't until Linebacker II that the AF got some leeway. that air operation may have been the most devastating prolonged bombing campaign ever. iirc, it was when the buffers were allowed to fly over hanoi, with devastating effects.