Science

[Txurce]

I see your point regarding rfxmills' proposal. As a frequent science player who favors tall over wide, I'm not sure there actually is a problem with the status quo. And the AI aside, I would think that adding more science buildings is a less risky adjustment than giving science to villages, especially since we have recently already made the acquisition of gold more attractive. But I support you taking the bolder, more creative approach, and look forward to playing with v154.1, no matter what it comprises. We're still dealing with a residual problem in late-game AI gpt, but pretty much all of your changes have worked out sooner or later.

 

[Thalassicus]

I suspect the basic problem is too few options for science in the early game. It's mainly population and libraries until the medieval era.

I would think that adding more science buildings is a less risky adjustment than giving science to villages

What if we add a new tier 1 science building to stand alongside monuments as a prerequisite to libraries? It would let us de-emphasize population (the goal of this thread), and have the nice effect of giving us more choices in the early game. The building could represent some fundamental form of passing down knowledge between generations... storytelling, perhaps? From before written history to modern times, our species has relied on oral traditions for transferring knowledge.

It could be an abstract concept instead of a concrete building. The "National Epic" is not a physical structure... this new building could be some kind of precursor to it.

 

[Txurce]

I think that would be the most entertaining way to go, and you're dead on as to what it would be. The storytelling "building" or NW could be The Philosopher's Stone, the Story Circle, etc. These would definitely come before libraries, and force you to make a hard choice between a science building block and everything else you can do at game start. Because it's so early, it would not be an easy choice at all... which is a good thing.

 

[mitsho]

And what would that new building do exactly?

Spontaneously I would have proposed something related to clay tablets. Those collections were very common in the fertile crescent. Unfortunately we nowadays call them Libraries or Archives (see for example the one of Ashurbanipal). You could always pull the library earlier and add an Archive later on, or the other way around.

Otherwise I would suggest something with Inscriptions in it. But then we are back at the monument, because those are practically monuments... Burial grounds/cemetaries are also a possible building. Maybe that can take over the culture aspect? (And it makes sense that ceremonial burial enhances those ).

What about a Mausoleum or a Cenotaph?

I think the most simple way would be to just name it archive I guess, but I am still not convinced we need one.

 

[wobuffet]

If we're going the new building route, I'd say make it a Scriptorium (a place of work for scribes) and put it before the Library.

 

[gunnergoz]

If we're going the new building route, I'd say make it a Scriptorium (a place of work for scribes) and put it before the Library.

Which sort of assumes one has mastered Writing. Nothing wrong with that, but perhaps we want something even earlier? An "Elders' Lodge" or somesuch, where oral histories are formally "gathered" and disseminated? That would surely predate writing and an early society that settled down to either hunt, fish or farm would need some sort of ongoing repository for its knowledge. AFAIK, this typically was through the formalization of an council of elders or shamans who kept communal knowledge going over many generations by storytelling and mentoring.

 

[Txurce]

Which sort of assumes one has mastered Writing. Nothing wrong with that, but perhaps we want something even earlier? An "Elders' Lodge" or somesuch, where oral histories are formally "gathered" and disseminated?

Exactly. That's why this suggestion (or mine, earlier) seem to make more sense. We're looking for something that has nothing to do with writing (other than preceding it).

 

[gunnergoz]

Exactly. That's why this suggestion (or mine, earlier) seem to make more sense. We're looking for something that has nothing to do with writing (other than preceding it).

Then may I propose we have...The Hair Salon. It is commonly known that most human knowledge begins there as rumors shouted through a hair dryer helmet.

 

[rfxmills]

I wasn't playing this mod back when you guys made the decision about scientists being OP, but I don't really see the problem with science being influenced by how many scientists you are willing to devote to it. In the yield thread example 15% of science coming from scientists isn't that high in my opinion. Also in that example if only half the citizens had been in villages the total gold/science and relative contribution of the merchant/scientist would have been roughly the same.

I quite like the tier 1 science building from a gameplay point of view. However it's a bit tricky to fit in with a realism point of view, the vast majority of oral tradition is cultural.

Would setting up a stone circle as a science alternative to the more cultural monument work?

• Stone circle would be used for some beginner's astronomy and gathering people to pass on knowledge.
• Monument would be used as the centre piece for rituals and worshipping.

Villages received an indirect buff in v154 when you increase hammer costs and decreased purchase costs. I think adding science to them as well could be a bit too much, unless you take something away.

 

[Seek]

I don't personally see a need for a science building before Libraries, they are available quite early. What does seem to be missing is a science building in the Industrial era, which - if we go with village science - I envision augmenting science on villages (it would allow us to move the Scientist from the observatory to a universal building as well). A tier-4 building would benefit tall empires more readily than wide - I think we have to keep wide/tall balance in mind as we proceed here; if we make a change as drastic as this, it would be a mistake not to implement it with as much polish and thought as we can (simply adding more food to Tradition or the Aqueduct strikes me as an uninspired hotfix).

 

[Thalassicus]

Here's a revised plan. #1 deals with the main topic of this thread, while #2 and #3 relate to other things that have been bothering me.

1. Move some science from population to a building:
   • 1 per 1 basic science income per city (was 2 per 1).
   • 1 per 1 from new science building available at turn 0.
     This buffs tall empire science, since they tend to be more developed, with more buildings.
   • 25% Library.
     .
2. Equalize start locations:
   • 15 per player (was 5).
     This buffs tall empire science, since it does not depend on number of cities.
   • Adjust tech costs to keep early pace unchanged, and slightly speed up modern era techs (feedback elsewhere said modern era's too slow).
     .
3. Make villages more similar to cottages:
   • 1 1 Villages (was 2 gold) and unlock with Pottery (was Trade).
   • Moved Markets to Trade and reduced cost & effect.
     This avoids a problem that will happen in G&K. The classical era is twice as wide, so the Medieval era and Markets come much later in the game. Trade is also a more realistic place for markets since early markets relied on barter instead of currency.
   • Moved a Merchant slot from Granary to Lighthouse.
     This avoids having 2 easily accessible merchant slots in the ancient era.

 

[Txurce]

Here's a revised plan. #1 solves the main topic of this thread, while #2 and #3 solve other things that have been bothering me.

1. Move science from population to a building:
   • 1 per 1 basic science income per city (was 2 per 1).
   • 1 per 1 from new science building available at turn 0.
     This buffs tall empire science, since they tend to be more developed, with more buildings.
   • 25% Library.
     .
2. Equalize start locations:
   • 15 per player (was 5).
     This buffs tall empire science, since it does not depend on number of cities.
   • Adjusted tech costs to keep early pace unchanged, and slightly speed up modern era techs (feedback elsewhere said modern era's too slow).
     .
3. Make villages more similar to cottages:
   • 1 1 Villages (was 2 gold) and unlock with Pottery (was Trade).
   • Moved Markets to Trade and reduced cost & effect.
     This avoids a problem that will happen in G&K. The classical era is twice as wide, so the Medieval era and Markets come much later in the game. Trade is also a more realistic place for markets since early markets relied on barter instead of currency.
   • Moved a Merchant slot from Granary to Lighthouse.
     This avoids having 2 easily accessible merchant slots in the ancient era.

There's a lot here, and a lot that looks good to me. #1 is what we discussed yesterday, focused to provide the option of negating the pop nerf. Making the library pop-based further boosts the value of a large pop. My initial impression is that the Storyteller is powerful enough to justify being relatively expensive (or, maybe more interestingly, have higher-than-usual maintenance: do you want a drain on your treasury so early?)

#2 is a moderate boost to tall civs, and a slight adjustment to late science is probably going to make the game more fun as well.

#3 makes sense to me from a gameplay perspective; one beaker per village is not OP by any means, but encourages early construction of villages, which you now allow. It also potentially allows these early villages to pay for the upkeep of the Storyteller building (as per above). This creates a genuine choice - farm or village - for players like myself who wouldn't have thought twice about it before... and you did it without forcing my hand by stacking the deck. (This had been my fear.)

I like the historical reasoning behind the adjustment to markets, and only wish there was as much history behind the shift of villages to Pottery (but we can't have everything). One suggestion: shape Markets early on so they can accommodate a boost with Currency.

All in all, I can't wait to try out something like this over the weekend.

PS: I'm assuming that one big reason for not adding more science buildings late in the game is that they are coming with G&K.

 

[Thalassicus]

This places Science with 5 mainline buildings, more than any other yield (production has 2 for comparison). I think 6 might be excessive. If public schools and research labs are not sufficient for late game science, I'd rather buff them than add another new structure.

Both pottery or animal husbandry feel like decent places to unlock villages. My instincts leaned me towards pottery from the start. I'm not really sure why. It might be because libraries are a peaceful player's focus, whereas militaristic players focus more on revealing horses/iron.

 

[Txurce]

This places Science with 5 mainline buildings, more than any other yield (production has 2 for comparison). I think 6 might be excessive. If public schools and research labs are not sufficient for late game science, I'd rather buff them than add another new structure.

Both pottery or animal husbandry feel like decent places to unlock villages. My instincts leaned me towards pottery from the start. I'm not really sure why. It might be because libraries are a peaceful player's focus, whereas militaristic players focus more on revealing horses/iron.

Pottery strikes me as more balanced than AH as well. I've always looked at it as a gateway tech (unless I'm building a quick granary), but this gives them all a lot.

I'm hoping that with these changes you can kick back and just fine tune while you prep for G&K. By the way, RA's in G&K don't kick in until Education. That's a great place for it. If they also toned down GS, vanilla should be a lot better.

 

[Zaldron]

Do you feel the aqueduct buffs are not enough to counterbalance building fewer farms? I think population is primarily limited by happiness, not food.

I actually hadn't seen the aqueduct buffs in my first read-through. I want to play 154.1 a few times before I draw conclusions.

However, I find that in my tall games (3-4 cities) food is *by far* the limiting growth factor industrial and beyond. I often have 60-80 happiness by the mid-end of industrial and I would easily trade 20 GPT to grow one pop a turn in my (30 pop) capital for 40-50 turns because of the museum and public school combined with NW multipliers.

 

[Zaldron]

I see your point regarding rfxmills' proposal. As a frequent science player who favors tall over wide, I'm not sure there actually is a problem with the status quo. And the AI aside, I would think that adding more science buildings is a less risky adjustment than giving science to villages, especially since we have recently already made the acquisition of gold more attractive. But I support you taking the bolder, more creative approach, and look forward to playing with v154.1, no matter what it comprises. We're still dealing with a residual problem in late-game AI gpt, but pretty much all of your changes have worked out sooner or later.

I'm also a tall peaceful player and want to echo agreement with pretty much everything you wrote here!

 

[Zaldron]

What if we add a new tier 1 science building to stand alongside monuments as a prerequisite to libraries? It would let us de-emphasize population (the goal of this thread), and have the nice effect of giving us more choices in the early game. The building could represent some fundamental form of passing down knowledge between generations... storytelling, perhaps? From before written history to modern times, our species has relied on oral traditions for transferring knowledge.

I''d be happy to try this out in a beta. What benefit(s) would it provide?

 

[Txurce]

I''d be happy to try this out in a beta. What benefit(s) would it provide?

Keep reading, my friend.

 

[rfxmills]

I like the way this is going more, only thing I'm not sure about is:

1 per 1 from new science building available at turn 0.

This seems a pretty powerful turn 0 building, especially compared to a monument.

One suggestion: shape Markets early on so they can accommodate a boost with Currency.

I like the idea, which you could do to the library at printing press as well perhaps. How about:

• 1 per 1 basic science income per city (was 2 per 1).
• Turn 0 Science building (snappy name) 4. Monument provides 4.
• Library 1 per 1 (+ 15 to 25% at Printing Press).

It's a slow start, getting better as the game goes on.

 

[Txurce]

That's a good alternative to my suggestion to make the Storyteller expensive.

We should also keep in mind that building a science building on t1 (or anywhere near it) is a risky proposition.