Science

[Txurce]

Excellent image. About the only downside is it looks a bit like the Great Prophets of G&K.

 

[gunnergoz]

Well, just in case we're going to keep the "Mentor's hall", I've made an icon.
A bit anachronistic (looks like it may belong in the classical era) but it's still better than the icons for the garden, the bank and scientific theory, those all look like they belong in the modern era.

I think its Methuselah telling the elevator operator to take him up to the penthouse...

Not that I could do better...

 

[gunnergoz]

Of course, we tend to romanticize the past a bit.
How we think they lived:

How they actually lived:

Won't stop me from playing though!

 

[Airny]

After some thoughts on the new early science, this is my conclusion:
1.) You screwed around with my builds! ;-)
2.) Why should I bother investing in research? Both building (MH and Lib) are not useful before you have around 10pop in your city.
3.) The village is really interesting, you can double your income/pop with it and therefore a player who wants to go early tech can quickly get his science up to 30 (at 5pop). Anyways the village finally brings back the strategic element of "how do I want to play?" because you can't do food/production but now it is food/production/science. I have to try it in some games.

 

[albie_123]

After a few playthroughs of earlygame, I fully agree with #2 above. Sure, it's probably a good long term investment to build a MH - but I always find myself drawn to more immediate gains. The quicker social policies of the monument ensures I always build it first.

I do think that a straight science bonus is better for the Turn 0 building, whereas the pop bonus is better off on the library.

Apart from the Turn 0 building in its current state, I love the new changes, especially the village. It really makes improvements feel like a choice now, instead of endless farms.

 

[Thalassicus]

What I'm trying to portray is a general term for these highlighted words:

"Historically significant systems of mentorship include traditional Greek pederasty, the guru disciple tradition practiced in Hinduism and Buddhism, Native American Elders, the discipleship system practiced by Rabbinical Judaism and the Christian church, and apprenticing under the medieval guild system."

The word "mentor" has existed since Greek times and also fits in the modern era. Names like "scriptorium" don't make sense in the pre-writing era. "Stone circles" aren't a common form of education in the modern era.

@sukritact
Could you post the psd file?

 

[Txurce]

The word "mentor" has existed since Greek times and also fits in the modern era. Names like "scriptorium" don't make sense in the pre-writing era. "Stone circles" aren't a common form of education in the modern era.

I think Mentors' Hall is more accurate, although it's no more common in the modern era than a Stone Circle. How about the Teaching Circle?

Out of context I also agree that it makes more sense for the MH to have a flat boost and the library a pop-based one, but agree with Thal that it would be a no-brainer throwing early science out of whack.

 

[Thalassicus]

I chose a tall bonus (per-pop) instead of a wide bonus (per-city) because a lot of this discussion focused on tall empires. I didn't want to change things too much, either.

this:
2 per 1 from pop

is close to this:
1 per 1 from pop
1 per 1 from building

 

[rfxmills]

Stone Circle - 120 - Available at Start

Science per Citizen: 1

Monument - 90 - Available at Start

Culture: 4

Stonehenge - 300 - Available at Calendar

Must be within 2 tiles of Grassland.
Great Engineer Points: 1
Free Building: Stone Circle

A grassland tile near the city gains the Stonehenge improvement, giving:
Science: 6
Culture: 3​

Luxor Obelisk - 300 - Available at Writing

Culture: 5
Border Expansion Range: 3
Great Artist Points: 1
Free Building: Monument

After a few playthroughs of earlygame, I fully agree with #2 above. Sure, it's probably a good long term investment to build a MH - but I always find myself drawn to more immediate gains. The quicker social policies of the monument ensures I always build it first.

I do think that a straight science bonus is better for the Turn 0 building, whereas the pop bonus is better off on the library.

Out of context I also agree that it makes more sense for the MH to have a flat boost and the library a pop-based one, but agree with Thal that it would be a no-brainer throwing early science out of whack.

I like Albie's ideas for the different buildings (flat bonus for turn 0 building, per pop for the library) and wonders to tie into them.

A flat science building isn't a no-brainer. Building it means you aren't building a monument, slowing down culture (liberty enhanced expansion) or a scout for some exploration or a worker for growth and happiness boosts.

I don't see how taking 1/ off base population then adding a building which gives 1/ and is available on the first turn changes anything?

 

[Thalassicus]

Building a structure requires or , while population is just there, without any extra investment. It's similar in theory and subtly different in practice.

Changing from a population bonus to a flat bonus would buff wide empires and nerf tall empires - not the goal of this thread.

 

[sukritact]

@sukritact
Could you post the psd file?

Of course! Here you go: http://www.sendspace.com/file/ym5eb8

 

[Txurce]

Building a structure requires or , while population is just there, without any extra investment. It's similar in theory and subtly different in practice.

I agree with this, but want to reiterate that population requires investments in happiness, as well as buildings like granaries, water mills, aqueducts, lighthouses, and so on. As such it requires constant monitoring. It is less passive than villages, which truly are one-and-done.

 

[Thalassicus]

A village is more passive than a citizen, but a worked village is more active than either a village or a citizen.

 

[Txurce]

You're right that a village is more passive than a citizen, but the village doesn't do anything without a citizen to work it. An improvement+1citizen is more complex than 1citizen alone.

My point is that sustaining a large, happy population requires considerably more effort than building and working villages (click to build, then click to work). It may require more effort than any other single aspect of empire management.

 

[Thalassicus]

To put it another way:

c = effort to sustain a citizen
v = effort to build a village
c+v = effort to sustain a citizen working a built village
​

Citizen+village must require more effort than a citizen. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[Txurce]

I don't see how that makes sense... could you explain it in more detail?

Population in general, staying happy, and growing to good sizes in tall and mid-size empires almost always requires aqueducts, and often granaries, lighthouses and maritime CS, as well as the occasional hospital. They always require colosseums, theaters, and often stadiums as well as CS happiness. All these pop-focused buildings require maintenance, which in turn require gold buildings, and sometimes villages.

I may have missed something, but you get the idea. Growing a population large enough to win a science victory takes a lot of effort and constant monitoring, and probably causes more problems than any other aspect of Civ. There's nothing passive about its care and feeding... and the only reason I do it all is because it gets me beakers. That's why although I'm happy to try the new system, I always object to categorizing the previous one as passive.

(Population also benefits from some SP's, but so does everything, so I'm skipping that aspect of it.)

 

[Thalassicus]

Say we're asked a question with four answers. The rules of the game can be A or B:

• If we answer the question we get $100. If we don't answer, we get a pineapple.
  This has 1 action: deciding to answer the question.
  It's an easy choice, unless that's a strangely expensive pineapple.
  .
• If we pick the correct answer we get $100. If we don't pick the correct answer, we get a pineapple.
  This has 2 actions: deciding to answer the question, and selecting from available answers.
  It's harder since we have to think about the answers.

The second ruleset requires more actions than the first. It's comparable to the choice we make in Civilization:





In situation A (left) we get 1 with any answer to the question of "how to assign a citizen." In situation B (right) we get 1 only if we pick the village answer.

• has 1 action, growing population
• has 2 actions, growing population and working a village

That's why I think of the second as more "active" than the first.

 

[Txurce]

That's true... but I didn't dispute that. The point of my last post was that there's nothing passive about population affecting science, because having a large, happy population is anything but passive. "That's why although I'm happy to try the new system, I always object to categorizing the previous one as passive."

On a side note, why does a negative budget with plenty in the till lower science? What does one have to do with the other?

 

[wobuffet]

For what it's worth, I'd prefer Town Hall as a building name. The present icon is awesome though .

 

[mitsho]

Yes! Good Suggestion!

Stone Circle doesn't work, since it's really strange to build it in the later ages.
Mentor's Hall is ok, since it does exist. But it nevertheless feels strange since we do have Public Schools later on.
Town Hall works since it's something imaginable for the early cities and it does exist later on. It's also where people get together to discuss stuff which leads to solutions and cooperating. New Ideas get brought up and tested, i.e. Science is created.

What would work as well is a Town Square, if you don't want the hall. I could also imagine a Keep. (Central tower to keep citizens safe = government = science).

Or, I'm going back to my first suggestion, rename the culture building (monument) into Cemetery and make the monument give science.

In the end, it doesn't really matter (though, nice icons)