Scientists create deadly strain of influenza virus, apocalypse averted... for now

Such a virus would burn itself out rather quickly once quarantine laws came in effect.
I doubt that. Quarantine laws can only be applied if a person is diagnosed as sick. Until then (period of incubation), plenty of time to get others sick. Who again will have time to get others sick and so forth. If we don't have a vaccine SAP, such a virus surely could kill massive amounts of people.
But you are right of course that it wouldn't be the apocalypses, as the plague comparison demonstrates.
 
I don't know what the purpose of this thread is. That we should restrict science for reasons of morality? We already do that. That we should teach scientists about ethics? We do that, too.

Also, the comment about it being "scary" that a government has access to this dangerous bio-weapon is also a bit specious because governments all over the world already have access to much more powerful weapons of destruction.

I mean, there are definite potential humanitarian applications for this research. Winner, you shouldn't presume these scientists are evil Mad Doktors simply because they didn't write a long-winded statement saying "we do this only for the common good and heartily condemn genocide." It's assumed that they already care about those things because they're humans. And more scientists are ethical than you think, especially when you consider much of the pure-science types aren't thinking about how to kill their next human test subject, but how their research will benefit all of humanity.

Think about it before you make a loaded scare-thread that seems like a call to Dark Ages more than anything else.
 
1) Should such research be even done? In civilian facilities? With a rather minimum security? What if some nutjobs broke in, stole samples of the virus, or the infected animals, and used it as a doomsday bio-weapon?
Yeah, because viral samples don't need to be refrigerated and can be replicated without a modicum of lab equipment. Starting a pandemic is as simple as swiping a vial and spraying the contents in some poor schmuck's face.

Also infuriating how people don't seem to know the concept of Biosafety Levels. Look it up, and note the security precautions involved. :rolleyes:

2) If it's so easy to recombine influenza strains in order to create deadly forms of it, how come no terrorist group has done it yet? Are the jihadist too stupid to do this, or do they just need more time?
A virology lab isn't something easy to construct without tipping off a few agencies.

3) Has this story been hyped (oh yes).
It's the mainstream media. What are you going to tell me next, water is wet? I'd love to read the actual paper, but I can't find it anywhere yet.

4) What preparations have you made, if any, to survive the inevitable "big" influenza pandemic that will kill hundreds of millions of people worldwide and bring our civilization near collapse? (loaded question, I know) :scared:
Using more sanitizer than usual, I guess.
 
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1) Should such research be even done? In civilian facilities? With a rather minimum security? What if some nutjobs broke in, stole samples of the virus, or the infected animals, and used it as a doomsday bio-weapon?

In first nowhere is written that it was a minimum security facility.
A civilian facility doesn't mean low security.
For example the CDC labs have extremely high security and the chance of accidental release are pretty much zero.
There are specific rules about security in facilities handling virus... it's not like your average high-school biology lab.

It's pretty much impossible for a single nutjob to enter and steal anything.
A military commando is somethings else.


Should this research be done?
Yes, categorically.
As the article explains this is an experiment to understand how the flu virus evolve and mutates.
The experiment will allow scientist to know better the mechanism that can make the current strains of flue more dangerous and hopefully it will give us enough knowledge to be able to restrain them.

With this knowledge we can also be more able to create vaccines for coming strains of flue.
Putting our head inside a hole in the ground (e.g. no experiments) is not the way to find cures and vaccines.
 
With this knowledge we can also be more able to create vaccines for coming strains of flue.
Putting our head inside a hole in the ground (e.g. no experiments) is not the way to find cures and vaccines.
I think you nailed it here. Our best shot on the long run is probably to get really awesome in creating vaccines to be prepared for a natural or intended virus attack. Just that the price is to increase the risk of the latter by doing so.
 
Questions for discussion:

1) Should such research be even done? In civilian facilities? With a rather minimum security? What if some nutjobs broke in, stole samples of the virus, or the infected animals, and used it as a doomsday bio-weapon?

I would say a cautious yes. With any disease, one of the very first things to look at is "what mechanisms are feasible for that disease to use to become worse?" - often mechanisms by which they can become drug-resistant, deregulated in proliferation, etc. And the way to do that is by trying your hardest to actually make these super-diseases so you can find out the how, and then develop methods for stopping it when it happens out in the real world. That's really the most useful way of doing it, which is usually fine as long as it stays in a confined laboratory environment.

Making new viruses is a standard part of lab procedure in a lot of labs. Often they sound very scary. If you say "I've made a virus for a leading cancer-causing mutation and put it into the HIV virus shell", people go ballistic - realistically though, it's probably less dangerous than half the stuff you've got under your sink, because these things normally have built-in safeguards (knocking out a bit that makes the nastiness but isn't involved in the proliferation, for example). Is the one in the article similarly safeguarded? I don't know, and I don't know enough about the specific virus to know if that's even reasonable. I would hope that they would take every possible precaution to make a "safer" version (that proliferates the same but doesn't kill you, for example) before going further with it.

In addition, "civilian facilities" in this case would be the equivalent of Physical Containment Level 3 at the minimum or almost certainly Level 4 (that's the Australian system, but I'm sure the Netherlands has a roughly equivalent one); neither of these are your chemistry lab from undergrad. PC3 requires a very significant level of safeguard, and PC4 are extremely rare and very well-safeguarded facilities for serious stuff like dangerous infectious diseases (I think there's only one in Australia). It would be hard for something to get out of PC3 by accident, but probably easy enough by malice from an insider. If you just broke in and didn't know exactly what you were looking for and exactly where it was, we'd be talking real needle in a haystack stuff. PC4? Not so much, I don't think - that's a level that involves showering to go in and out, airlocks, bunnysuits etc (all the movie stuff), and you certainly wouldn't be able to easily smuggle a sample out, even as an insider.

2) If it's so easy to recombine influenza strains in order to create deadly forms of it, how come no terrorist group has done it yet? Are the jihadist too stupid to do this, or do they just need more time?
Making new viruses is potentially an easy, routine and run-of-the-mill part of normal laboratory procedure. If you have a lab and access to scientific facilities and supplies, no problem at all. But getting access to this stuff without the resources of the international scientific community? Not so much. There are so many things that you need, that you can't get access to if you're not a lab. Getting the DNA you need in the first place, in the form you need it, is going to be a massive challenge. Then plenty of very specialised reagents, and a lot of very specialised, very expensive equipment of the sort you can't just "acquire". And then of course you have to know what you're doing and spend years optimising etc, and overall it's not the sort of thing that's feasible from a cave in the mountains with a bunch of jihadis who, not to stereotype, seem to me not to usually be big on their medical science knowledge. It would really have to be an officially-sanctioned lab in a rogue nation, but even then the amount of stuff needed from elsewhere would very likely raise a lot of red flags.

3) Has this story been hyped (oh yes).
Of course, it's a science story in the media. Usually there's no more than a passing relationship with the actual truth. I'd be interested to find the actual paper though and see what the actual story is.

4) What preparations have you made, if any, to survive the inevitable "big" influenza pandemic that will kill hundreds of millions of people worldwide and bring our civilization near collapse? (loaded question, I know) :scared:

Years of training have meant that I can spend long periods of time playing games like civ on my own; maybe just sit it out until it all blows over?
 
1) Should such research be even done? In civilian facilities? With a rather minimum security? What if some nutjobs broke in, stole samples of the virus, or the infected animals, and used it as a doomsday bio-weapon?

The labs with that biosafety level have normal alarm systems, keycode access, and some freezers, rooms, benches etc. are sometimes additionally locked.
Besides the already provided points that it's too difficult, it's also dumb. It alarms the safety authorities in the area. It would be saver to go with chemical plant toxins, ricin, T2 or some other sort of trichothecene (okay, takes longer, but not that noticable).
Or you make an inside job, that's more likely, and there it doesn't make much a difference what type of facility it is.


And for what purpose this research...understanding genetics, possible applicability in retro viruses...well...basic research. The benefit is in most cases not obvious.
 
I'm just wondering how they came up with a 60% mortality rate? Presumably they're test subjects were not people.

:hmm: where does the 60% mortality come from? Not from the articles I am sure. The second one even specifically states that the original strain had likely a lower mortality rate since only the severe cases were ever reported and the new strain while as lethal to ferrets doesn't even state how lethal it is to these animals.

60% is the official mortality rate for H5N1 infections in humans. Yes, the real rate may be lower, possibly because the milder cases go unreported. However, there are differences between varieties of this virus - the Indonesian one kills 80% of people in whom it is identified. The worst Ebola strain (Ebola Zaire) has 90% mortality rate.

EDIT: Here's the official press release from Erasmus Medical Centre pages:

Avian influenza could evolve into dangerous human virus

Erasmus MC researchers have discovered that the H5N1 influenza virus (bird flu) could develop into a dangerous virus that can spread among humans. To achieve this in a laboratory, they introduced a number of mutations to the virus that could also occur in nature.
Pandemic
The discovery will enable scientists to recognize in time when a virus becomes a threat to public health, thereby possibly preventing a pandemic.

Transmissible
Of the 600 people who have to date been infected with the H5N1 virus worldwide, 60 per cent have died. Avian influenza cannot be spread from one person to another by sneezing or coughing. Scientists worldwide have been concerned with the question whether the virus could change into a virus that can spread among humans. “We have discovered that this is indeed possible, and more easily than previously thought”, says Ron Fouchier, researcher at Erasmus MC. “In the laboratory, it was possible to change H5N1 into an aerosol transmissible virus that can easily be rapidly spread through the air. This process could also take place in a natural setting.”

High security
The discovery is important as it could prevent a severe pandemic from occurring. Fouchier: “We now know which mutations to watch for in the case of an outbreak and we can then stop the outbreak before it is too late. Furthermore, the finding will help in the timely development of vaccinations and medication.”
Erasmus MC met the highest possible safety standards in this study. No risks were taken with regard to humans or the environment. The experiments were carried out in a special high security laboratory. A permit was granted by the Ministry for Infrastructure and the Environment (I&M) for the study. In addition, the safety was monitored by international experts, partly because the study was commissioned by the American National Institutes of Health (NIH).

Date published: 27 November 2011

Looks like I was wrong (or rather phrased it badly) about the "minimum" security. This changes nothing about why I started this thread. It's often been hyped in the media, but the truth is that in order to produce a really nasty biological weapons, you don't really need that much. It's certainly far cheaper and easier than to produce a decent nuclear arsenal.

Such a virus would burn itself out rather quickly once quarantine laws came in effect. It would disrupt our economies no doubt, but hardly apocalyptic.

:lol: Quarantine laws, against influenza... well, good luck. It has never worked and it never will, not with something that spreads like normal, seasonal flu. By the time WHO and governments understand this is serious, the virus will have already spread too much to be stopped by travel bans and whatnot.
 
Yeah, because viral samples don't need to be refrigerated and can be replicated without a modicum of lab equipment. Starting a pandemic is as simple as swiping a vial and spraying the contents in some poor schmuck's face.

Also infuriating how people don't seem to know the concept of Biosafety Levels. Look it up, and note the security precautions involved. :rolleyes:

Oh shut the front door, will you? I know perfectly well what biosafety levels mean, so go patronize someone else. I am talking about security from a deliberate attempt to get the virus out.

It's the mainstream media. What are you going to tell me next, water is wet? I'd love to read the actual paper, but I can't find it anywhere yet.

And I hope you won't.

I don't know what the purpose of this thread is. That we should restrict science for reasons of morality? We already do that. That we should teach scientists about ethics? We do that, too.

The purpose is to inform about this.

I mean, there are definite potential humanitarian applications for this research. Winner, you shouldn't presume these scientists are evil Mad Doktors

I am not saying anything like that. Why do people always jump to conclusions? I am about the last one who would want to stop legitimate research. My concern here is that any civilian research centre is basically capable of producing what I presume is a viable extremely dangerous virus. Think about the consequences of that.

Think about it before you make a loaded scare-thread that seems like a call to Dark Ages more than anything else.

This really is CFC OT at its finest :shake: Jesus Christ people... just... no, I am speechless.
 
Ehhhhhhhh wanting to limit the potential for a freaking pandemic is anti-science how?

Winner said:
And I hope you won't.

Mmm. The ability to engineer a potential pandemic isn't one of those skills we want floating around let alone the result. Then again, I'm all for free dissemination of smallpox and bubonic plague to all comers.

tl;dr i'm all 4 terrorism enabling in the guise of scientific freedom!

SS-18 ICBM said:
Yeah, because viral samples don't need to be refrigerated and can be replicated without a modicum of lab equipment. Starting a pandemic is as simple as swiping a vial and spraying the contents in some poor schmuck's face.

Yeah, I might have said the same thing about piloting a large commercial aircraft or an architectural degree holding terrorist a while ago.
 
I doubt that. Quarantine laws can only be applied if a person is diagnosed as sick. Until then (period of incubation), plenty of time to get others sick. Who again will have time to get others sick and so forth. If we don't have a vaccine SAP, such a virus surely could kill massive amounts of people.
But you are right of course that it wouldn't be the apocalypses, as the plague comparison demonstrates.
Well... the plague was very close to an apocalypse. :)
For example the "back death" destroyed entire communities and to a large extent also the old social order in medieval Europe.
That was in the middle-age when people did not travel so much, towns were smaller, and there was a huge traveling distance between them (relatively to the speed of travel): all factors that contained the spread of the virus.

If the incubation time is shorter than the average travel time, the spread of the disease is controllable.
For example Ebola is an extremely scary virus, 90% death but its virulence limits its diffusion (people die before they can infect to many others in a low density population area).
On the opposite side of the scale you a virus like HIV with incubation time of years: a single infected can potentially infect a huge number of people.



However, today in the western world, a virus with a 60% death rate can be "apocalyptic" if the conditions are right (difficoult to find a vaccine, relatively long incubation time, aerial transmission).

Lets see the worst case scenario:
Spoiler :
In such case a huge number of people would get sick at the same time... imagine a rapid spread to all big towns in Europe and North America: millions of sick, economic collapse (sick people not working, plus quarantine, plus people to scared to get infected), and inability of health system to cope with the sick people.

It will also cause a disruption of transport for food: how do you get food in central London during a strict quarantine?

Such pandemic will not wipe humanity away, but surely will have a dramatic impact on all our society.


This is why scientist have to work on studying all possible diseases, experiment on mutations, and find the best way to stop them.
 
Oh shut the front door, will you? I know perfectly well what biosafety levels mean, so go patronize someone else. I am talking about security from a deliberate attempt to get the virus out.

The lab I'm currently working at works with seasonal flu. Just. Normal. Seasonal. Flu. And there's already tons of locks and key card authorizations required. And getting into the animal testing wing is another level of security.

Like someone said, not your high school biology laboratory. :rolleyes:

And one more thing: the BSLs also specify the security protocols involved, not just safety guidelines. You really do have no idea what you are talking about.

Ehhhhhhhh wanting to limit the potential for a freaking pandemic is anti-science how?

I think it already got explained how vital the research is to understanding viral mechanics. You'd do well to read some of the posts here. :)

Yeah, I might have said the same thing about piloting a large commercial aircraft or an architectural degree holding terrorist a while ago.

And that's the same level of difficulty as breaking into a BSL-3 lab, protecting and cultivating the samples, and managing to release them alerting any law enforcement agencies...how?

This really is CFC OT at its finest :shake: Jesus Christ people... just... no, I am speechless.
I'm also speechless at people talking out of their ass about subjects they don't have any experience in.
 
@wolfigor
Good points. I feel there is a certain hubris present, which on an instinctive level tells people that our great civilization could never be really kicked in the ass by such a virus, but people forget that we never actually had to deal with such a thing and hence there are no empirics found in our great history. So anything can happen.
 
I read the article (in Science Magazine) and it is rather short on details. All one can say clearly is that these Dutch scientists were able to manipulate the activity of influenza virus altering only 3 or so genes, and were able to produce a virus that spread faster and was more often lethal. How often is not clear to me from the article.

What I certainly doubt is that the virus is capable of causing an apocalypse, if for no other reason than that one could manufacture a vaccine to that strain as easily as any others.
 
This should only be done if there is a huge benifit to medicin from doing so. If it will save many lives it is worth it. Also it should be highly regulated and done in a high security environment.

Scary that this can be done so easily.
 
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