Scions documentation

[Methuselah]

Now I have no idea what you're talking about.

The infernal have:
<CivTrait>TRAIT_FALLOW</CivTrait>


So no matter who you play Infernal as, they will always have fallow. You have assigned it to your two leaders rather than the civ, so playing with unrestricted leaders would allow someone to bypass it.

 

[Valkrionn]

From a gameplay perspective, I would really be inclined to say drop Arcane. Ever since Korinna lost her good spellcasting abilities, I've never been really tempted to go down the arcane path. All the Emperor's really needed stuff is on other paths, and Alcinus is a joke because of how unreliable he is. Also, I find charismatic REALLY useful. The early happy boost is nice, and the reduced XP costs help with the relatively small number of units I usually have.

The Emperor's Mark is very flavorful, but also fairly powerful. The other thing that really seems to help the Scions is their ability to start the game with two cities. That can't really be helped due to how their spawn mechanics work, but it does give them a very strong edge.

My thoughts exactly. IMO, give Korrina Arcane, as the Risen Emperor requires you to go down that path to build him.

About the Emperor's Mark, I'd probably be pushing a cultural victory quite easily this game regardless, just not nearly as fast... the +2 in the beginning adds up to quite a bit over time. The main thing I like about it is the ability to knit your empire together that much easier... Maybe have reduced culture from it after 100 culture? gets you to a three ring city, which is more than enough.

 

[Tarquelne]

Ever since Korinna lost her good spellcasting abilities, I've never been really tempted to go down the arcane path.

Yeah, I miss that too, actually... I can't remember exactly why it was dropped, but I think a lot of it was that it was too clearly the best path.

All the Emperor's really needed stuff is on other paths, and Alcinus is a joke because of how unreliable he is.

What do you think it'd take to "fix" Alcinus? Would a lot less unreliable do it? I think it's fun that he is unreliable to the point of going barb and joining other civs, but I don't think the churn needs to be nearly so high. Or, for that matter, that going barb be inevitable.

Also, I find charismatic REALLY useful.

Pretty much exactly why I'm considering dropping it. I take your point, though.

The other thing that really seems to help the Scions is their ability to start the game with two cities. That can't really be helped due to how their spawn mechanics work, but it does give them a very strong edge.

Do you think having them start with 1 pop 2 city would be an improvement? I think that could be fairly easily arraigned.

 

[Tarquelne]

The infernal have:
<CivTrait>TRAIT_FALLOW</CivTrait>


So no matter who you play Infernal as, they will always have fallow. You have assigned it to your two leaders rather than the civ, so playing with unrestricted leaders would allow someone to bypass it.

Ok - sounds like I can do that. I didn't know it was possible.

 

[Methuselah]

Do you think it would have been simpler for you to simply suggest that? I do.

But where would be the fun in that?

 

[Tarquelne]

My thoughts exactly. IMO, give Korrina Arcane, as the Risen Emperor requires you to go down that path to build him.

Ah - interesting point.

The main thing I like about it is the ability to knit your empire together that much easier... Maybe have reduced culture from it after 100 culture? gets you to a three ring city, which is more than enough.

Yeah - the ring thing is really the point, not having it help cultural victory. There should be some way to limit it...

 

[xienwolf]

You don't need to block the Scions from building farms because for the Scions no tile will provide ANY food, so they will automatically be unable to build any farms anywhere (requires that the tile provides at least 1 food already IIRC), and the DLL was tweaked in one of Kael's latest patches so that Fallow Civs automatically ignore farms anyway.


Dowsing: All it does is make all resources visible for you. Unfortunately it seems not to update the actual appearance of the tile, so you have to turn on the Bonus Markers, I keep on trying to fix that and keep on failing, but I know it CAN be done somehow.

The extra tidbit in the pedia is informing you that you can build an improvement on the resource and get a nice yield bonus on the tile. Mainly this is important for Mithril and Pearls (if you happen to have 3 Pearls in your workable tile range and a city capable of cranking the ritual out in decent time it becomes worthwhile to keep casting it so that the pearls remain visible and you gain some NICE bonus commerce off the tiles)

 

[MaxAstro]

What do you think it'd take to "fix" Alcinus? Would a lot less unreliable do it? I think it's fun that he is unreliable to the point of going barb and joining other civs, but I don't think the churn needs to be nearly so high. Or, for that matter, that going barb be inevitable.

Do you think having them start with 1 pop 2 city would be an improvement? I think that could be fairly easily arraigned.

On the topic of Alcinus: Right now, all I ever do with him is teach him some spells the AI knows how to use and send him in the general direction of someone I dislike in the hopes that he'll do some damage when he goes barb. The chance of him going barb at any point really makes me hesitant to use him for anything important.

A couple ideas: He could be given Crazed instead of Mad, especially with the new mechanic for Crazed. I like the idea of him occasionally randomly running off to hit something, and probably getting himself killed in the process (which then sends him to another civ, leaving the theme of his madness).

Alternatively, he could have a promotion with a duration that degrades to Mad. Perhaps even with a (not readily available) way to extend the duration, such as killing a living unit. So that if you work for it you can keep him sane, for a while.

(I like Crazed better, actually. The more I think about it, the more it sounds like fun to have him randomly wander off to find something to kill, but otherwise be a perfectly reliable spellcaster.)

Also on the note of Alcinus: The Dagger is really not useful because of how impossible it is for a Martyr to survive to the needed level. My personal preference would be for the Emperor's Dagger to be straight up built rather than upgraded, but with a national limit of one.

Also on the note of Scion spellcasters: The whole necromancy thing is not very useful, in my opinion. Banefire, for example, is a horribly weak spell that requires you to risk the life of your caster to be able to cast it once. I haven't seen the Wraith Lord necromancy spell... but that's because I've never had the opportunity to be safely attacking with a Wraith Lord. Could be that it's entirely worth it. But Banefire, at the very least, seems very outclassed by pretty much every other combat spell.

On the starting cities thing: That would only be a method of slowing it down, since you could still just found a second city with your first Awakened. But that would probably help, yes. Any amount of slowing down the Scions' incredibly fast early game would help.

EDIT: And I would certainly support Korrina having Arcane.

 

[Tarquelne]

You don't need to block the Scions from building farms because for the Scions no tile will provide ANY food,

Excellent. That won't interfere with the "can build" python allowing Farms on grains, will it? (If it's already in the dll the answer is "No.")

Alternatively, he could have a promotion with a duration that degrades to Mad. Perhaps even with a (not readily available) way to extend the duration, such as killing a living unit.

That's a good idea, but..

(I like Crazed better, actually. The more I think about it, the more it sounds like fun to have him randomly wander off to find something to kill, but otherwise be a perfectly reliable spellcaster.)

...I agree. I've no experience with the new Crazed but it sounds like an excellent thing to try for Alcinus.

Also on the note of Alcinus: The Dagger is really not useful because of how impossible it is for a Martyr to survive to the needed level. My personal preference would be for the Emperor's Dagger to be straight up built rather than upgraded, but with a national limit of one.

I've been meaning to ask about that. I'd already lowered the MoP's chance to die-when-sucessfull and don't want to do it again, but I do think needing to run through a bunch of MoPs to get the Dagger isn't fun. Directly build able is probably the best solution. (And, yes, limit 1.)

Also on the note of Scion spellcasters: The whole necromancy thing is not very useful, in my opinion. Banefire, for example, is a horribly weak spell that requires you to risk the life of your caster to be able to cast it once.

IMO most other spells of that type are terribly over-powered... but it doesn't look like that's going to change anytime soon.

So here's what I'm thinking:
Make the after-combat promotion allowing Balefire/Hand of the Reaper last longer.

Make at least Balefire more powerful - the idea being that it becomes worth the (often slight) risk, or perhaps more importantly the opportunity cost.

On the starting cities thing:... But that would probably help, yes.

Ok...

Any amount of slowing down the Scions' incredibly fast early game would help.

What do you find fast about it? Getting pop, culture, the good ol' warrior rush... ?

With regard to the rush I've been thinking about making Bonus Pay more expensive - 2 maybe 3 gold.

EDIT:
Emperor's Mark culture limit:

One or both culture points going obsolete with a specific tech is the easiest way I know of to limit the building. Eh? Suggestions for a tech?

 

[Valkrionn]

Alcinus with Crazed sounds good, actually... if he 'dies', he'd forget himself and adopt the civ of whoever he happens to find, while if victorious his mind will settle and he'll remember who he is supposed to be serving. Also prevents him from attacking you..... Just had him go barb a second time after he came back to me on his own... Had the Raider promotion on him. Not pleasant... Destroyed my Reagent plantation.

I'd probably say a tech limit on Emperor's Mark could be put on one of the culture techs, as they're required to build Reborn as it is... Festivals, maybe?

 

[MaxAstro]

What do you find fast about it? Getting pop, culture, the good ol' warrior rush... ?

With regard to the rush I've been thinking about making Bonus Pay more expensive - 2 maybe 3 gold.

EDIT:
Emperor's Mark culture limit:

One or both culture points going obsolete with a specific tech is the easiest way I know of to limit the building. Eh? Suggestions for a tech?

The main thing that makes the Scions powerful early game is that they are nothing but production, and they don't have to build settlers. They can spend their early turns (when everyone else is trying to grow to size 5) pumping out workers, and expand to two or three cities while they're at it.

...Ironically it occurs to me that one of the things that would most slow their early game is to take the ability to found cities away from the Awakened. I'm not exactly sure how you'd then go about having the Scions found new cities, but they definitely gain a lot of early game power from the fact that they are basically handed new cities on a silver platter more or less whenever they need one. If they actually had to spend production in some form to found a city, that might help.

I am kind of just making this up as I go along based on personal experience, though. I can't honestly say for certain that the Scions need to be weakened. I'm just giving ideas for how to go about it if they do.

As for the culture thing: I agree that it should be limited somehow, but reducing it at a certain tech seems like a poor idea. You should not be disadvantaged for researching a tech, IMO. Just flat out reducing it to 1 culture instead of 2 might be enough, actually.

 

[Tarquelne]

Alcinus with Crazed sounds good, ...Also prevents him from attacking you..... Just had him go barb a second time after he came back to me on his own... Had the Raider promotion on him. Not pleasant... Destroyed my Reagent plantation.

Hmm... I would miss his attacks. I'll try to work in the *occasional* barbarian rampage. Maybe just have one or more of the barb civs be a valid target - I'll ask xienwolf about it.

...Ironically it occurs to me that one of the things that would most slow their early game is to take the ability to found cities away from the Awakened. ...
I'm not exactly sure how you'd then go about having the Scions found new cities,

Yeah, there's the rub. Awakened got the ability to found cities when I realized Settlers were such cheap first population points. And a really expensive Settler is just a specialist Awakened. I could make it so that only built Awakened can found cities... or only spawned ones. But I think people generally get both anyway...

The 2 cities at start thing can be a noob trap, so I'll change that... later other things can be adjusted.

As for the culture thing: I agree that it should be limited somehow, but reducing it at a certain tech seems like a poor idea. You should not be disadvantaged for researching a tech, IMO

I agree in principle, though I like leaving the full +2 intact for the very early game... I'll see if I can find a good rationalization for a tech reducing or removing the culture.

 

[Methuselah]

I agree in principle, though I like leaving the full +2 intact for the very early game... I'll see if I can find a good rationalization for a tech reducing or removing the culture.

Considering they already have an improved monument (which was designed to provide early game culture), why not just flat out remove it?

Or, make it grant a percentage increase perhaps?

 

[Valkrionn]

Considering they already have an improved monument (which was designed to provide early game culture), why not just flat out remove it?

Or, make it grant a percentage increase perhaps?

Percentage increase would be the exact opposite of what is needed. Would be too weak in the early game where it's desired, while granting a massive boost late game. Rather, why not just nerf the culture on the Shrine to Kylorin? Drop it to 1 culture, and the Emperor's Mark bonus is absorbed.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I see the people posting on this thread have their minds set about "limiting" the scions. No one takes into consideration that I might not receive an awakened for 40 turns. In the meantime my cities are not growing. When I get the Awakened I have to decide: +1 pop or a new city? Meantime any other civ grows insanily fast with their flooded plains / grassland resources, farms etc + popping up a settler in any of their cities while I get 1 point of either population or settler every, at best, 15 turns average. The other civs can get 3 settlers or more out of their cities during the same time + increase their population by 2 or points in most them, again at the same time.

So, please! You want to make Scions pathetic? Go on, remove the mark of the emperor then, have them unable to expand at all. Imagine the fun of watching the others growing and expanding and yourself crippled.

Or even better, why don't you make them just like any other civ? There is no cuincidense I was attracted to this civ for their unique mechanics, although I have to say already disadvadageous from a growth point of view, it seems there is always someone that will consentrate on the positive points of a civ, disregarding the negative ones, and will actually ask for nerfing this civ for one reason or the other.

It appears that noone really uses Aristocracy, or at least noone considered answering this question. The bazzaar was promptly nerfed without even discussion. OK, 500% may sound overpowering, but was it when someone played the game? At the point you have the tech, the other civs multiply like rabbits, you have the option to concentrate your production points to get some population out, and even then, much slower than any other civ + 1 population for every 4 cities max. Of course there are the positives of the Scions, but these exist to balance this significant handicap.

So, I know it is not in my power to prevent the obviously inevitable nerfing, but at least I can express my protests.

I would rather concentrate on how to make Korrina more useful as a leader rather than nerfing the Emperor. Also, I would give more incentives down the Arcane line. In my current game I avoid the arcane line, since it does not really offer anything. I went all the way the hunting line and disciple line to fanatisism and religious law. The randomness of the mana + the bad side effects of the Thaumatourgy guild, really encourages for the Disciple line for spell casting and getting reborns from combat, instead of arcane line with limited benefits in the very long run. As much as the Scions are concerned, Arcane does little to help arcane units to get experience fast, in the FF mechanics...

Sorry for the sarcastic tone of the first part, but I really think considering why the Scions are given these benefits in the first place, in a discussion for stripping them even the last out of them, does worth it.

@Xienwolf: You mean that you can actually harvest these resources for 5 turns even when you don't have the tech!?! OMG, that would be awasome!! Please verify this!! I will have the ritual cast constantly if it is true!!

 

[Methuselah]

I see the people posting on this thread have their minds set about "limiting" the scions. No one takes into consideration that I might not receive an awakened for 40 turns.

The exact same can be said about the Infernal. Notice how they don't have any overpowered stuff, nor can they even build pop?

 

[Vehem]

The bazzaar was promptly nerfed without even discussion. OK, 500% may sound overpowering, but was it when someone played the game?

That one was overpowered, there's no doubt. I did the Math for it when if was first discussed and it was providing massive benefit compared to any other building available to any other civ.

Some of the others I'm not so concerned about - though the civ is strong vs AI due to the fact the AI has never seen a civ like them. They don't understand Haunted Lands too well, don't appreciate the fact that the Dark Councilors can mess with their cities without causing war (sometimes) etc...

 

[Thunder_Gr]

@Methuselah: Yes, but they get all the dead having AV,OO,CoE religions. This can be up to hundreds in one turn, and Happiness and unhealthiness does not restrict their growth. And I am sure you knew the answer beforehand.

 

[Methuselah]

@Methuselah: Yes, but they get all the dead having AV,OO,CoE religions. This can be up to hundreds in one turn, and Happiness and unhealthiness does not restrict their growth. And I am sure you knew the answer beforehand.

That can be up to hundreds, but it can also be 0, if no civs are following those religions or stop warring.

So, please! You want to make Scions pathetic? Go on, remove the mark of the emperor then, have them unable to expand at all. Imagine the fun of watching the others growing and expanding and yourself crippled.

Not pathetic, just balance them against other civs.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

That one was overpowered, there's no doubt. I did the Math for it when if was first discussed and it was providing massive benefit compared to any other building available to any other civ.

No objection to the compared to any other building available to any other civ part, but, on the other hand, what about the multitute of benefits taken by food resources and farm improving techs the Scions never get?
Even whole civics become useless for them, like Conquest, Aristocracy, Agrarianism etc....