Scions documentation

[xienwolf]

Wouldn't be too hard to add it to the Interface while viewing the Scions Capital (I think). Just would need to decide on precisely where and what kind of a graphic to utilize.

 

[Vehem]

Thanks! I keep forgetting to add that to the doc above.



It's supposed to still be there - I've got the notifier in the same place as always.

confused: Is anybody else seeing the spawn chance show up in the top-center message area each turn? .)

I disabled that as it looked like a debug message. Can re-add it with a quick string to say what it actually is (people seeing a decimal number appear per turn without knowing what it was would assume it was a bug)

 

[Tarquelne]

Are there any things (such as what mana I have) that affects what it does? Also I read in the pedia that it provides 3 mana but I have yet to see this?

Some more details:

It is indeed completely random - nothing you can do influences the selections. The "3 mana" is 3 total - initial death + 2 more. Though actually sometimes it's only 1 more, and sometimes it can give you 4 mana total, but 2 will be Death. You should never get 2 of the same building. (New feature, not exhaustively tested.) Finally, not all mana types are available. "Life" for example.

You always get the main Keep building, and it's always the same.

Random Building 1: Always a mana building. They'll have slightly different stats. It'll be Force, Entropy, Shadow, Chaos, Body, Mind, Enchantment, Ice, or one of the elements.

Random Building 2: As above, but 3 more possibilities: Alcinus' Trove (2 PA resources), the Schola Furo (extra xps for Adepts), or a Death mana building with better than usual stats that gives 2 death mana.

Random Building 3: 50% nothing, 25% Alchemist's tower, 25% Military Abattoir.

Random Building 4: 50% nothing, 25% Noxious Smell, 25% Corrosive Spills

Erm ...Vehmen and me thaught it is a forgotten debug message and removed it just before the release of the initial version.

Ack! I wonder why I still see it?! Pulled from old FF 043 directories? They're all renamed, but that's the only thing I can think of...

Maybe we should make it display somewhere else instead of showing the chance every turn as a message.

That'd be good. But the interface python files fill me with fear and loathing.

EDIT: Ok, just re-downloaded the main mod and now the message section is commented out. I must have been using the final pre-release version. ("Ack!", but a different, less-confused "Ack.")
Given that, though, if you want to put the message back in it's easy enough.

The file is CutomFunction.py in the python directory.
As of patch C the lines are 1154 - 1156. Just remove the "#" sign commenting them out.

#			if pPlayer.isHuman():
#				message = "%0.2f" %(iSpawnChance)
#				CyInterface().addImmediateMessage(message,"")

 

[hbar]

Didn't know if this was bug or WAD (I'm guessing bug) but playing with the Scions last night - granaries, smokehouses, and herbalists were available to build. I thought that was kind of strange, but the first post in this thread implies that they shouldn't be available. I was playing with an AI teammate (same game I reported the Alcinus bug, BTW Cassiel got copies of all three super-scions) if that would make a difference.

I don't think Cassiel got any Awakened, but I'd hate to think what would have happened if he used the city-subverter's ability to turn an enemy population into a reborn...

What are the requirements for the Thau... tower? I didn't even know it could be built. Is there a Scions strategy thread anywhere? They are a bit difficult to pick up out of the gate.

 

[Tarquelne]

- granaries, smokehouses, and herbalists were available to build. I thought that was kind of strange, but the first post in this thread implies that they shouldn't be available.

Yep - well after the "1.31" documentation was made a new mechanic was added: Scion cities with too much unhealth get hammer/happiness penalties 'cuz all the living people -servants and such - are upset. (Whiners. Necropolis will pretty much fix that, btw.)

Several of the health buildings were again made available to give the Scions so way of avoiding the penalty.

I was playing with an AI teammate (same game I reported the Alcinus bug, BTW Cassiel got copies of all three super-scions) if that would make a difference.

It would have worried me if he hadn't, because that would have meant I was wrong about the source of the bug.

I don't think Cassiel got any Awakened,

Good to know. (Totally separate bug if he had.)

What are the requirements for the Thau... tower? I didn't even know it could be built.

Just Knowledge of the Ehter. With that you get Alcinus, and he builds the Thaumaturge's Keep with a spell. You can put it in any city outside the capital.

Is there a Scions strategy thread anywhere? They are a bit difficult to pick up out of the gate.

Not really - the former Scions thread is here, in the mods forum. Given it's sheer size and the fact that it stretchs back to very early versions I doubt it'd be very helpful.

I'll be improving the documentation in the first post, though, and will include a faq/guide in addition to the categorized list that's up there now.

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm... Didn't know that the Emperor's Mark spell was removed. Wish I had remembered before I took out the Mazatl... Half my continent is made up of their old cities, so now I'm unable to build my legate army of doom. I can see not wanting the Emperor's Mark to be spreadable, but is there any reason to tie Legates and Revenants to both the Temple of the Gift and the Emperor's Mark? The temple is already unbuildable by Korrina, so leaving them with just that would keep her from building any while also allowing you to build the disciple units in your conquered cities.

Edit: Woot, 300th post.

 

[Tarquelne]

but is there any reason to tie Legates and Revenants to both the Temple of the Gift and the Emperor's Mark?

Hmm... not really. "It makes sense" is more important than anything against it, I think. I'll remove the restriction.

 

[Tarquelne]

Suggestions for Scions entries in the "concepts" section of the pedia?

There should be a section on Awakened spawning. Anything else?

 

[MaxAstro]

The council members could definitely use a section explaining their abilities and the requirements to get them, all in one place, as well as the Dark Council itself.

Speaking of, what does the Corrupt Quartermaster spell actually do? I've never been able to figure that one out, and last I checked it's pedia entry is... not helpful.

Also a section on the differences between Korrina (Still used to calling her Alexi...) and the Emperor might be helpful.

Something on Haunted Lands might also be in order.

 

[Jean Elcard]

I know the Scions are your baby Tarquelne, but maybe we should think about changing the mechanism for Awaken spawning a little bit and make it non-random. Something similar to the Great People bar could work. Accumulating points until an Awakened leaves his grave. Maybe it's just my dislike for randomness, but me personally would like it to be more predictable. What do you think? Could this work?

This idea came to me after reading some comments about extreme bad luck.

EDIT: We could also add a nice tooltip windows to the bar to display all the factors affecting the current accumulation rate.

 

[Master_Hugian]

How do you get Haunted Lands? Last game i tried to find out with no luck. I agree with Awakened spawning similar to GP though, I dislike it being completely random as I may end up with far to little population.

 

[MaxAstro]

I like the randomness of it, but an element of being predictable mixed in with the randomness might be good.

OH! Awakened spawning could use the Great General bar, since nothing else does right now. Would require completely rewriting the mechanics for that, of course. But if you went with that and then, for example, had a random value that it increased by each turn, plus a static value based on the spawn chance...

Dunno, just a random idea.

 

[ShadowDrgn]

I know the Scions are your baby Tarquelne, but maybe we should think about changing the mechanism for Awaken spawning a little bit and make it non-random. Something similar to the Great People bar could work. Accumulating points until an Awakened leaves his grave. Maybe it's just my dislike for randomness, but me personally would like it to be more predictable. What do you think? Could this work?

This idea came to me after reading some comments about extreme bad luck.

EDIT: We could also add a nice tooltip windows to the bar to display all the factors affecting the current accumulation rate.

In my current multiplayer game, I got my first awakened on turn 63 (normal speed). I had to build 2 shrines and hook up 4 artifacts to my capital before it spawned. I really like the Scions, but Civ already has enough make-or-break random elements without tying your method of growth to chance.

I also noticed that a few units require God King. Should those be changed to require Aristocracy now?

 

[Tarquelne]

How do you get Haunted Lands? Last game i tried to find out with no luck.

Ghostwalkers need Necromancy.
Creepers need Feral Bond. (It allows A Ghostwalker to feed them, and only a fed Creeper can create a HL tile.)
Redactors can do it as soon as they arrive.

I like the randomness of it, but an element of being predictable mixed in with the randomness might be good.

I like it random, too. I like wondering from turn to turn whether one will pop up, and how I'll cope if one doesn't. I enjoy a run of good luck... and also a run of bad luck. Then I prioritize Legates, look for fights, and scramble for more Luxuries, or maybe Body mana.

Some ideas if it seems more player control is needed.

1) Safety-net events triggering if your pop is too small. The Events grant some Awakened or Reborn.

2) Events that allow you to "earn" A/Rs. The simplest example of which would be....

3) You get some Awakened for achieving certain techs - maybe the techs that grant Councilors. So that'd be 4 extra Awakened by the time you get Feudalism. (I think Melante is generally the last one gained.)

4) Allow Legates to be built earlier, and/or increase the odds to "capture" a Reborn.

5) Make Pelemoc's Subversion spell cheaper.

6) Make the "small population" spawning odds boost last longer, or have a greater effect.

7) Add a whole new way to increase the spawn rate. # turns at peace? # of open borders?


I don't like the idea of having Awakened gained like GP. Much too mechanistic/predictable for my taste. As far as the Great General bar goes - I'm holding out for re-introduction of Great Generals.

=====
Oh yes:
Corrupt Quartermaster: Gives 1 unit in tile the "Corrupt Quartermaster" promotion. It costs the unit's owner 1 gold/turn and lasts, on average, long enough to cost them more than it cost you to cast the spell.


God King and unit requirements: Hmm... I don't think so. God King it still appropriate. The MoPs and Praetorians are both very much expressions of the Emperor-centric religion.

 

[Valkrionn]

Agreed, I prefer it random. Makes for an occasional game with constant spawns that turn you into a power house, or the occasional game, like the one I'm on now, with just enough spawns to keep my capital up... Luckily, I started next to the Mazatl, and had Korrina the Red lead an army of Legates on them... Leaving the top half of my continent empty so I can allow the barbarian hordes to feed my Legates, generating quite a few reborn. The only issue I can really think of would be Korrina's spawning... Since she can not build Legates, those games where chance isn't in your favour can be tough. Maybe allow her a more expensive version of the Legate, but no upgrades? That way, your legates can hold you over until you get some Cathedrals built...

 

[deadliver]

Randomness is our friend.

 

[odalrick]

5) Make Pelemoc's Subversion spell cheaper.

Or make it not teleport Pelemoc back to the capital. The risk of war is enough to discourage spamming. Or vice versa.

He could get a spell or ability that targets the old and sick. Essentially the ones that die naturally so that there are no repercussions with the targeted civilization.
Just give it a long casting time to have a chance to create one reborn. Say 15 turns for a 25% chance. Maybe even add a little temporary happiness.

Another way to make Awakened more predictable would be to drastically increase the spawn chance, but make the maximum number spawned more restrictive and increasing.

Say that spawn chance is [10%, 25%] while total pop is lower than maxpop.

maxpop starts at some map size dependant number, add number of patrian artifacts, Kyorlin temples, cenotaphs et etcetera (the current spawn modifiers), number of techs researched * map size modifier.

 

[Valkrionn]

Or make it not teleport Pelemoc back to the capital. The risk of war is enough to discourage spamming. Or vice versa.

He could get a spell or ability that targets the old and sick. Essentially the ones that die naturally so that there are no repercussions with the targeted civilization.
Just give it a long casting time to have a chance to create one reborn. Say 15 turns for a 25% chance. Maybe even add a little temporary happiness.

Possibly make it only available in unhealthy cities, so he culls the sick and dying, leaving a healthy city behind?

 

[odalrick]

Well, people die all the time regardless. But it could certainly have bonuses in unhealthy cities.

 

[Tarquelne]

Or make it not teleport Pelemoc back to the capital. The risk of war is enough to discourage spamming. Or vice versa.

I think that's a good idea. The other costs do seem like enough of a break. (And if the target city is close it's not much of a break anyway.) The teleportation seems more annoying than anything else.

He could get a spell or ability that targets the old and sick.
...
Just give it a long casting time to have a chance to create one reborn. Say 15 turns for a 25% chance. Maybe even add a little temporary happiness.

Possibly make it only available in unhealthy cities, so he culls the sick and dying, leaving a healthy city behind?

That's a neat idea. I'll see if I can do that...