Second Leaders: Which Civs Need Them?

[Patine]

I think there were some good rulurs. Charles IV, for example, surely wasn't tyrant. He was mostly peaceful ruler, and during his reign Prague became centre of culture and arts.

Not if you define 'tyrant' in it's original Koine Greek definition...

 

[Xandinho]

Ok, this is a good mental exercise. I will list the possibility of each civ receiving an alternative leader someday in my opinion and then I will indicate the most possible leaders of each civ. Come on:

America - 90% (George Washington, Abraham Lincoln or Thomas Jefferson)
Arabia - 70% (Harun al-Rashid)
Australia - 40% (I don't know)
Aztec - 55% (I don't know. However, Acamapichtli can to be an option)
Brazil - 50% (Getúlio Vargas or Juscelino Kubitschek)
China - 95% (Wu Zetian or many others options)
Egypt - 99% (Ramesses II)
England - 95% (Elizabeth I or Henry VIII)
France - 95% (Napoleon or Louis XIV, I am inclined to think that we will see the first)
Germany - 95% (Bismarck is the better option to me)
Greece - 10% (I don't think that we will see another Greek leader)
India - 80% (Ashoka)
Japan - 75% (Oda Nobunaga)
Kongo - 40% (I think that the possibilites of Kongo get a second leader is low. However, I would like to see Ana Nzinga in game)
Macedon - 25% (Macedon was included because of Alexander, I don't think that we will see another leader of this civ)
Norway - 50% (I don't know)
Persia - 60% (Darius I or Xerxes I)
Poland - 60% (Casimir III)
Rome - 99% (Julius Caesar or many other options)
Russia - 95% (Catherine)
Scythia - 30% (I don't know)
Spain - 65% (Isabella)
Sumeria - 35% (I don't know)

But I would like to see all the above civs receive alternative leaders, with the exception of Greece and Macedon.

 

[Guandao]

Ok, this is a good mental exercise. I will list the possibility of each civ receiving an alternative leader someday in my opinion and then I will indicate the most possible leaders of each civ. Come on:

America - 90% (George Washington, Abraham Lincoln or Thomas Jefferson)
Arabia - 70% (Harun al-Rashid)
Australia - 40% (I don't know)
Aztec - 55% (I don't know. However, Acamapichtli can to be an option)
Brazil - 50% (Getúlio Vargas or Juscelino Kubitschek)
China - 95% (Wu Zetian or many others options)
Egypt - 99% (Ramesses II)
England - 95% (Elizabeth I or Henry VIII)
France - 95% (Napoleon or Louis XIV, I am inclined to think that we will see the first)
Germany - 95% (Bismarck is the better option to me)
Greece - 10% (I don't think that we will see another Greek leader)
India - 80% (Ashoka)
Japan - 75% (Oda Nobunaga)
Kongo - 40% (I think that the possibilites of Kongo get a second leader is low. However, I would like to see Ana Nzinga in game)
Macedon - 25% (Macedon was included because of Alexander, I don't think that we will see another leader of this civ)
Norway - 50% (I don't know)
Persia - 60% (Darius I or Xerxes I)
Poland - 60% (Casimir III)
Rome - 99% (Julius Caesar or many other options)
Russia - 95% (Catherine)
Scythia - 30% (I don't know)
Spain - 65% (Isabella)
Sumeria - 35% (I don't know)

But I would like to see all the above civs receive alternative leaders, with the exception of Greece and Macedon.

Henry Parkes for Australia?
Haakon Haakonsson for Norway?
Ateas for Scythia?
Ur-Nammu, Shulgi or Gudea for Sumeria?

I'll admit I first heard of some of the above leaders through Civ5 mods. That's what I like about mods, they introduced me to leaders and Civs I was unfamiliar with at first.

 

[Manifold]

America: Thomas Jefferson or Ike Eisenhower
Arabia: Al-Walid
China: Yongle
Egypt: Echnaton = Akhenaten ++ or Narmer
England: Oliver Cromwell or Robert Walpole
France: Cardinal Richelieu or Clovis
Germany: Charles V (HRR)
Greece: Agamemnon ++
India: Ashoka ++ or Akbar
Japan: Meiji
Rome: Scipio Africanus or Aetius
Russia: Ivan the Terrible or Nikita Khrushchev
Spain: Isabella ++

 

[Xandinho]

Henry Parkes for Australia?
Haakon Haakonsson for Norway?
Ateas for Scythia?
Ur-Nammu, Shulgi or Gudea for Sumeria?

I'll admit I first heard of some of the above leaders through Civ5 mods. That's what I like about mods, they introduced me to leaders and Civs I was unfamiliar with at first.

Yes, I thought about suggesting Henry Parkes to Australia (I also met him by Australian mods) but I know almost nothing about him and I do not know how Australians think about him. To be honest, I'm very unfamiliar with Scythia, and I've only heard of Tomyris more openly now that Scythia was included in the game. Haakon Haakonsson seems to be a good option for Norway, I would like a leader to bring some interaction with the Stave church.

 

[nzcamel]

...where the Prime Minister had the true power, and the President has a ceremonial figurehead who chose the Prime Minister and a few other duties.

"Chose". Mostly they have to pick the winner of the elections.

What leader prior to the early 18th Century wasn't a despotic tyrant?

Not many.

Henry Parkes for Australia?
Haakon Haakonsson for Norway?
Ateas for Scythia?
Ur-Nammu, Shulgi or Gudea for Sumeria?

That Haakon guy sounds like one of the bad guys from Dune lols

 

[IgorS]

I don't mind at all seeing other leaders for all the civs. What I care for is which leaders they choose. I would most like to see (if I had to pick just one for each)
America - Washington
Arabia - Harun al-Rashid
Australia - Parkes
Aztec - Ahuitzotl
Brazil - Kubitschek
China - Kangxi
Egypt - Ramesses
England - Elizabeth
France - Louis (XIV)
Germany - Bismarck
Greece - get rid of Macedon, make Alexander leader of Greece
India - Ashoka
Japan - Hirobumi (Meiji's Prime-Minister)
Kongo - Garcia (NOT Ana Nzinga - she was never leader of Kongo!)
Macedon - see Greece)
Norway - Haakon Haakonsson
Persia - Khosrow if we are are going for ancient Persia overall, Darius if we are going only with the Achaemenids
Poland - Jan Sobieski
Rome - Augustus
Russia - Catherine (NOT Ivan the Terrible, definitely NOT Stalin)
Scythia - Skilurus
Spain - Isabella
Sumeria - Ur-nammu

 

[Patine]

I don't mind at all seeing other leaders for all the civs. What I care for is which leaders they choose. I would most like to see (if I had to pick just one for each)
America - Washington
Arabia - Harun al-Rashid
Australia - Parkes
Aztec - Ahuitzotl
Brazil - Kubitschek
China - Kangxi
Egypt - Ramesses
England - Elizabeth
France - Louis (XIV)
Germany - Bismarck
Greece - get rid of Macedon, make Alexander leader of Greece
India - Ashoka
Japan - Hirobumi (Meiji's Prime-Minister)
Kongo - Garcia (NOT Ana Nzinga - she was never leader of Kongo!)
Macedon - see Greece)
Norway - Haakon Haakonsson
Persia - Khosrow if we are are going for ancient Persia overall, Darius if we are going only with the Achaemenids
Poland - Jan Sobieski
Rome - Augustus
Russia - Catherine (NOT Ivan the Terrible, definitely NOT Stalin)
Scythia - Skilurus
Spain - Isabella
Sumeria - Ur-nammu

I'm afraid I have to sharply differ on "get rid of Macedon and make Alexander the leader of Greece." The Hellenistic Empire under Alexander was VERY different in mentality, cultural mores, attitude, philosophy, viewpoint, etc. than the earlier Classical era of Greece - so much so that I must admit I couldn't help but find your pronouncement a bit jarring, even.

 

[Xefjord]

Honestly, I would have no issues dishing out 15 dollars or so for a "Warring States of the East" DLC which featured alternate leaders for China and Japan (And possibly Korea in the future) based off of their respective warring states periods. It could have 4 new alternate leaders, two for China and two for Japan. With leaders whom could place their capitals in northern Japan/China and Southern Japan/China (As both the inner central part of China is covered on TSL with Xi'an and central part of Japan with Kyoto). I think this could make East Asia as interesting of a place to be as Europe in regards to TSL games.

 

[Zaarin]

Honestly, I would have no issues dishing out 15 dollars or so for a "Warring States of the East" DLC which featured alternate leaders for China and Japan (And possibly Korea in the future) based off of their respective warring states periods. It could have 4 new alternate leaders, two for China and two for Japan. With leaders whom could place their capitals in northern Japan/China and Southern Japan/China (As both the inner central part of China is covered on TSL with Xi'an and central part of Japan with Kyoto). I think this could make East Asia as interesting of a place to be as Europe in regards to TSL games.

I would love such a thing as well. Seondeok of Silla, Gwanggaeto of Goguryeo, and perhaps Geunchogo for Baekje would be awesome. But I'm probably not in the majority in wanting to see that much of Korea in the game...I'd still love to see Seondeok lead Korea, though.

 

[Xefjord]

I would love such a thing as well. Seondeok of Silla, Gwanggaeto of Goguryeo, and perhaps Geunchogo for Baekje would be awesome. But I'm probably not in the majority in wanting to see that much of Korea in the game...I'd still love to see Seondeok lead Korea, though.

I love the Sinosphere dude, Japan, Korea, China, Vietnam. Preferably I would like to see like 5 alt leaders for Japan and China and 3 for Korea and Vietnam

 

[Patine]

I love the Sinosphere dude, Japan, Korea, China, Vietnam. Preferably I would like to see like 5 alt leaders for Japan and China and 3 for Korea and Vietnam

Yes, Vietnam is underrepresented. I'd suggest either Le Loi or Gia Long as leader there.

 

[Siptah]

I'm surprised that Bismarck is so popular. He was one of the most influential people of the 19th century, sure, and the picture we draw is usually rather positive. He had amazing diplomatic abilities and under his time in office, a lot of the things that constitute a modern state were crafted. His diplomatic abilities are as of now unused in civ iirc. So far so good, but I think we should have some new guy for Germany if they get a second leader.

Having Frederick Barbarossa makes another medieval emperor unlikely, even if Otto I and Fredrick II Stupor Mundi would be great options that could focus on different things than Barbarossa. And I don't want to go back further in time to look for leaders.
Emperors from later medieval or renaissance times to the Reichsdeputationshauptschluss of 1806 are between merely acceptable and undesirable in my eyes. Exceptions are Frederick II of Prussia, but I would not like him to lead Germany, if I'm honest and a non-leader named Martin Luther, who would also not be my choice.
After that we come to the time of the German Confederation. A nice touch would the the revolutionary leader Robert Blum, but from what I know, he is not very known outside Germany. But I guess he is still the best known, since the politicians of that era are mostly forgotten in the general public even in Germany.
I'm not particularly fond of the Emperors of Germany that followed in the second Reich of 1871, so I'm not commenting on them.
The Weimar Republic brings two great leaders and my favorites for second leader: Gustav Stresemann (my first pick) who would probably get a bonus for times of peace or shortly after a war, alliances or diplomacy in general. Friedrich Ebert on the other hand who could get bonus on changing politics, stronger governments of some sort, or for amenity bonuses.
The following Third Reich doesn't provide useful leaders for a civ game.
Although not my personal choices, I find Konrad Adenauer or Ludwig Erhardt acceptable. Probably giving even more production boost or a commercial bonus since the Wirtschaftswunder happened during their times of office. Willy Brandt would be a popular choice too, I guess, but he is probably too young.

 

[Uberfrog]

Aztec - Nezahualcoyotl - with a capital of Texcoco, he would be a really surprising and interesting variation - a Triple Alliance king who wouldn't be represented as a bloodthirsty maniac! Could have an ability where he can produce Great Works of Writing (he was a poet after all), and an agenda of spreading his religion (relatively) peacefully, and pursuing only joint wars. How refreshing would that be?!

India - Ashoka - I really feel there's an interesting ability in this guy. A guy who expanded his grandfather's empire over a vast area of the subcontinent, before converting to Buddhism. An early bonus for war that encourages rapid conquest up to a point, and then rewards you for pursuing peace after that. No idea of the details, but it would be unique. Of course he would also have the Pillars as a UB to build in conquered cities.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

. Haakon Haakonsson seems to be a good option for Norway, I would like a leader to bring some interaction with the Stave church.

I like Haakon, St. Olaf, and Magnus Olafson as alternate leaders for Norway who could gain better synergy with the civ's religious aspect.

 

[Siptah]

Generally, I'd prefer leaders, that hail from a different era of each civ and emphasize a different nature of the civ than the already present leader. But then again, the Greece precedent is not like this.

America - Donald Trump. He is still alive and his term isn't even over, so this is against Firaxis praxis till now. But since his first 100 days have been the greatest time in the country's history by far, they can't ignore him.
Arabia - My favorite would be Abu Bakr for a military leader, but he won't happen. Al Ma'mun could also be nice second leader.
Australia - Don't know enough about this.
Aztec - Auítzotl, maybe a conquering bonus?
Brazil - Don't know enough about this.
China - Don't want to go into this.
Egypt - My favorite would be the either Snofru for getting the most out of building things on top of Egypt's ability on floodplains or Akhenaten with a bonus for founding a religion.
England - I'd prefer a ruler from before the Empire, why not Alfred?
France - Louis XIV belongs into a game about big personality. Ability could go in lots of directions.
Germany - Gustav Stresemann with a bonus for peace/alliances/diplomacy
Greece - Already two leaders.
India - Akbar or Shah Jahan to get the Mughals into this civ that has been missing so far. Could be a different civ altogether as well.
Japan - Don't know enough about this.
Kongo - Don't know enough about this.
Macedon - Well, they could do Philip, but why would they?
Norway - Haakon IV
Persia - Abbas! This civ is a perfect example for someone who could do with a second leader, because it has different eras that were very different and civ has always focused on the very same thing so far. China and India fall in this category as well, but at least their leaders were from different eras and had different focus. A Safavid builder would be ideal here for making it different.
Poland - Don't want to go into this.
Rome - Trajan has a culture focus, so we need something else. Either Constantine with the religion cliché, that is exaggerated in most cases or a republican leader, like Cicero, Cato or someone else, there are enough examples. Some people mention Scipio Africanus which I think is a very bad idea: if we want a leader that was a war hero and tried to throw over the republic, we might as well chose the one that was successful with it.
Russia - Catherine is too close to Peter in time in my opinion. Boris Godunov would be a better and more different choice, but his ability can't be too good, or Russia would be OP. Alexander Newski and Iwan I. (more money!) might be fun newcomers as well.
Scythia - Madyes for even more warmongering. One of the Argippaioi for a different approach, but they are too obscure, like most scythian kings. Atheas is well known, but apparently very greek and, in my opinion, way too late. Tomyris is already from a late period of the scythian culture and people. Sadly, we don't know the names and much about the older kings of the 7th century, very Scythia had quite some impact.
Spain - Isabella for exploration. Earlier kings of parts of Spain might be interesting as well, like Fernando el Grande or Alfonso el Emperador. Alfonso el Sabio could be interesting as well.
Sumeria - Ur-nammu, Shulgi, anyone, but not Gilgamesh. Would even be happy with Sargon of Akkad... that's telling something!

 

[IgorS]

I'm afraid I have to sharply differ on "get rid of Macedon and make Alexander the leader of Greece." The Hellenistic Empire under Alexander was VERY different in mentality, cultural mores, attitude, philosophy, viewpoint, etc. than the earlier Classical era of Greece - so much so that I must admit I couldn't help but find your pronouncement a bit jarring, even.

The Hellenistic Empire under Alexander was part of Ancient Greek history, and therefore Alexander as a Greek leader is much preferable than having a separate Macedon civ. You have to remember that a civ in the game represents the entire history of a nation, and when it comes to Greece, we are talking about all of Ancient Greek history. This is why we have different leader abilities.

 

[Zaarin]

Aztec - Nezahualcoyotl - with a capital of Texcoco, he would be a really surprising and interesting variation - a Triple Alliance king who wouldn't be represented as a bloodthirsty maniac! Could have an ability where he can produce Great Works of Writing (he was a poet after all), and an agenda of spreading his religion (relatively) peacefully, and pursuing only joint wars. How refreshing would that be?!

That leader is already in game. His name is Gandhi.

England - I'd prefer a ruler from before the Empire, why not Alfred?

The problem is with England's design: the Anglo-Saxons were not a naval civilization. If we can have Alexander leading Macedon, I really think Alfred the Great ought to lead Wessex. I agree that I'd like to see someone from England's earlier history, though--Henry II or Henry V, perhaps.

Sumeria - Ur-nammu, Shulgi, anyone, but not Gilgamesh. Would even be happy with Sargon of Akkad... that's telling something!

Sargon is already in game; they just accidentally called him Gilgamesh. Actually, calling him Sargon doesn't make him any more accurate beyond the language; calling him Ashurbanipal might. I agree that there's a long list of Sumerian kings they could and should have chosen over Lugal Bilgamesh. (Choosing Bilgamesh would have been less problematic, however, had they at least made the civ resemble Sumer in any way, shape, or form...)

 

[Patine]

@Siptah - Donald Trump? Is that a joke?

 

[Siptah]

@Siptah - Donald Trump? Is that a joke?

My text was:

America - Donald Trump. He is still alive and his term isn't even over, so this is against Firaxis praxis till now. But since his first 100 days have been the greatest time in the country's history by far, they can't ignore him.

Do you really think this was meant serious?
Just to be clear: it was not. But I couldn't stand not doing it.