Secondary Religions

[Valkrionn]

I've been thinking for a while that it might be nice to flesh out the religions followed by the Lizards and the Scions Emperor, and I believe I have thought of an easy way to do it. What if we created guilds, granting some small benefit and discoverable at, say, philosophy? This way the Cualli can be shown to worship Agruonn/Aeron, the Mazatl Kalshekk and possibly Omorr, and the Scions their emperor. The Scions already recieve +2 culture for their agnostic leader, so that could be moved to the guild effect, maybe make it automatically spread to newly constructed cities, but require it to be spread to conquered cities, the same way it is now? These 'religions' would mostly just add a bit of flavor to agnostic civilizations, and could also be used diplomatically if you add a relations bonus for spreading it to other civs, or even a penalty... I can see Pelemac spreading the Cult of the Emperor to a neighboring civ, converting population, and running off with them...

What do you think?

 

[Mailbox]

I think it would be better to add 7 "religions" that acted as guilds but with different benefits than real religions:

1) Stewards of Inequity (Mammon's Religion)
- Gives huge bonuses for the first city in each nation with it (including the headquarters), huge penalties for all other cities with it.
- Founded by building at "Currency"

2) The White Hand (Mulcarn's Religion)
- Gives production bonuses, access to units that can build special improvements that give use to tundra/ice tiles
- Founded with the "White Hand" ritual in Illian city that completes it

3) The Emrys (Cerdiwen's Religion)
- Research and magical bonuses, raises AC and causes demons/extraplanar creatures to be spawned at random
- Founded by special building at Sorcery

I can't think of others off the top of my head but I know that Kael has listed them at some point in the past.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

awesome post, I totally agree! I've always thougt that it would be sweet to add some more depth to all the other cults and religions in Erebus. many civs just don't fit with any of the major religions flavour-wise.

 

[Valkrionn]

I think it would be better to add 7 "religions" that acted as guilds but with different benefits than real religions:

1) Stewards of Inequity (Mammon's Religion)
- Gives huge bonuses for the first city in each nation with it (including the headquarters), huge penalties for all other cities with it.
- Founded by building at "Currency"

2) The White Hand (Mulcarn's Religion)
- Gives production bonuses, access to units that can build special improvements that give use to tundra/ice tiles
- Founded with the "White Hand" ritual in Illian city that completes it

3) The Emrys (Cerdiwen's Religion)
- Research and magical bonuses, raises AC and causes demons/extraplanar creatures to be spawned at random
- Founded by special building at Sorcery

I can't think of others off the top of my head but I know that Kael has listed them at some point in the past.

Those are good ideas... With the removal of the guilds, I can see quite a few of these minor religions taking their place. They would help add flavor to civs, and the bonus could be as small or large as is necessary.. I wish I'd thought of the White Hand one lol. Would help the Illians production capabilities.

 

[Mailbox]

The only bad thing is that those religions would mean that the evil gods would have more representation than the good/neutral gods.

 

[Valkrionn]

True, but that's more a result of the backgrounds of the different civs then anything else... Many more of them are naturally evil than good.

 

[BugReportage]

I think every angel should have their own religion and guilds might be the easiest way to do that without having HUGE balancing issues with so many religions. The problem is there's so many angels... >_>

 

[Mailbox]

I think 7 religions and 7 guilds would be the best way. Also some gods can be rolled together or ignored outright because of their worship practices.

7 religions: (2 Good, 3 Neutral, 2 Evil)


Junil - Order
Lugus - Emp
Kilmorph - RoK
Cernunos(?) - FoL
Danalin - OO
Esus - CoE
Agares - AV

7 Guilds: ( 3 Good, 1 Neutral, 3 Evil)

Amathanon(?) - Growth Guild
Sirona - Diplomatic/ Peace Guild
Nantosuelta - Enchanting Guild
Oghma - Knowledge/Research Guild
Mammon - Greed/Gold Guild
Mulcarn - Production/Stasis Guild
Bhall - War/Change Guild

Others: ( 1 Good, 2 Neutral, 3 Evil)

Sucellus (Too many good gods? )
Arawn (No Worship)
Dagda (Balance only, hard to work into a religion?)
Tali (No organized worship)
Camulos (No organized worship)
Aeron (Chosen of Aeron works fine as a promotion)
Cerdiwen (Too close to AV/Oghma imo)

Although this is just my list and I tried to give them a few different attritubes.

 

[Valkrionn]

I like those ideas, although I'd still opt for a Scion's guild also at the very least... Seems more interesting to me than a building in each city, even if it does the same thing.

A few of those guilds would be easy to work in as it is... Build Bazaar of Mammon to found his 'religion', Sirona's maybe as an event for visiting Sirona's Beacon? I don't know too much of the lore there to suggest anything better... Oghma should probably be the domain of the Kahdi, maybe only available if they choose to follow Oghma over Mammon? Mulcarn and Bhall should probably be founded by the Illians and Clan, respectively... Although it might be easier to balance if they're available to anyone.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

While Cernunnos is the most important god worshiped by the Fellowship of the Leaves, this religion also reveres Sucellus and Amathaon greatly. Amathon does not need another religion following him. Sucellus is now revered by all the gods as they see him as Nemed reborn, and his priests (the Druids) are already in the game.


Sirona's worshipers would be much more dedicated to helping the poor and the orphans rather than dealing with large scale political issues like diplomacy. Sirona's "guild" would probably provide health and lower the AC. I'm thinking this religious guild would be the Sisterhood of Sirona, as they are specifically mentioned in Perpentach's entry as the ones that ran the asylum where Perpentach grew up (that is, before he took control of every mind there). The Order of the Elohim greatly revere her too, but as that is a civ it probably shouldn't also be a guild. When first founded by Immanuel Logos, this group too was devoted mostly to caring for orphans. Diplomacy is more an Empyrean thing.

Actually, Diplomacy is mostly the role of Dagda. Kael has described the sphere of force/balance is very close to the sphere of Law, except that Law is about unilaterally enforcing standard laws and justice and keeping one's own oaths, while force is about making and keeping mutually acceptable agreements. Dagda's constellation event is the one that benefits diplomacy.


Although Ceridwen is awfully close to Agares, the fact that we know the name of her cult (the Emrys) and that it was actively involved in getting people to practice magic and convincing mages to join the Sheaim in their Armageddon rituals makes her seem like a good choice.

I'd say that Bhall is now at least as close to Agares as Ceridwen, as they even share a vault. I think Bhall is covered by the Ashen Veil.

I'm not sure Oghma should have a guild or many worshipers, as he wasn't even able to defend his vault and the worshipers whose souls had already moved on abiding there was being conquered by the forces of Mammon.


Arawn probably would be a bad choice, since his inaction discourages worship. Some (like the Sidar) hae tried to found cults following him, but his apathy didn't make it easy. They revere him, but thats not really worship.

 

[Tarquelne]

What do you think?

I think representing movements (cults, sects, or whatever) that fall short of an in-game Religion but have some significance via Guilds is an excellent idea.

Especially for the agnostics-that-aren't-really. Though note that the Emperor as leader has available most of the benefits (units and buildings) you get from a religion. (Hmm... but there's not really a religious Hero...) I guess they'd be reworked a bit and, for the Emperor, the "guild" unlocks a lot more than for any other civ/leader.

Should the Grigori get "Rampant Secular Humanism"?

Picking 7, I'd go with:

(in no particular order)
1) Lizards
2) Lizards #2
3) Scions
4) Mammon
5) Bhall
6) Mulcarn
7) Sucellus

The first one I'd drop from that list might very well be the Scions. It'd be neat if the Emperor's cult was so attractive it justified a secondary religion. OTOH, I think it at least as plausible to say the ties to nationalism are too tight.

I can certainly see my wish-list changing after exactly what these Guilds do gets worked out.

EDIT: Leaving out the "agnostics" guilds there's 4: It might be nice if 2 were associated with Evil, and 2 with Good, and a civ can't pick up a Guild with an opposing alignment.

 

[Mailbox]

Yeah, it's hard to balance the guilds so that the good/neutral/evil are balanced. Then how about:

( 2 good, 3 Neutral, 2 Evil)

Sirona - Health/Happy Guild
Nantosuelta - Enchanting/Production Guild
Dagda - Diplomacy/Balance Guild
Oghma - Knowledge/Research Guild
Tali - Culture/Happy Guild
Mammon - Greed/Gold Guild
Ceridwen - Magic/Research Guild

While Oghma isn't too active in worship, the fact that Mammon invaded his vault is a D&D fact and I'm not sure Kael has said it is canon for FfH (could be wrong). I'd prefer game balance to lore though, flavor should be second to gameplay issues. Also I'm not so sure Mulcarn would be too revered by anyone, although the case could be made that weak neighbors of the Illians might start worshipping winter out of fear (the main reason humans worshipped Mulcarn). Tali might not have organized worship but he would fill a nice niche as a culture and happiness guild as a carefree and fickle god.

Edit: I forgot about Cult of the Dragon. It would fill a nice neutral role instead of Tali or Oghma.

 

[Valkrionn]

Especially for the agnostics-that-aren't-really. Though note that the Emperor as leader has available most of the benefits (units and buildings) you get from a religion. (Hmm... but there's not really a religious Hero...) I guess they'd be reworked a bit and, for the Emperor, the "guild" unlocks a lot more than for any other civ/leader.

That's actually why I'd prefer to tie it to a guild, only available to the Emperor and possibly anyone he chooses to spread it to... As it is now, captured cities that should have no love for the Emperor can immediately begin building his temples and units.... If you tie them to a guild, instead, you have to actively work to spread his worship across the empire.

 

[BugReportage]

Just because Oghma's vault got raided doesn't mean he shouldn't be worshipped... People worship Agares and his vault is just a barren wasteland...

 

[xienwolf]

At first I was mildly curious why you would bother adding in other religions as Corporations instead of real religions, but I finally see the imoprtant difference. While you can have either one in a city, and spread either one with a standard unit, it is not possible to devote yourself to FOLLOW a corporation. So in that regard it starts to make sense.


Honestly... I think that I would move Esus and Empyrean over to being Corporations in that case. Neither one really seems much like something that a nation devotes itself to following. The first is already touted as being almost worthless to follow, but amazing to have. And the second is such an "ideal" concept that it is hard to think anyone follows it without a secondary agenda in a world like FfH.


So the goal would be not to design religions similar to the current ones, but to design the religions which are observed instead of worshipped.

 

[BugReportage]

Exactly, having that many religions is rather overwhelming I think. But having a few religions and then other minor religions that aren't really as defining but provide their own set of defining features can really give the user control when it comes to refining a civ to their play style. Besides, it gives us a chance to actually see the worship of more than just a handful of angels. Reading fluff and lore is one thing, actually having them in the game and experiencing their effects is quite another.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'd rather you not change the Empyrean or Council of Esus to be guilds. In fact, I'd rather these new "religious guilds" be real religions, albeit probably unadoptable like the Cult of the Dragon once were. That way, they would be effected by Inquisition.

It could also be nice to simply have the game options to disable the religions and have them disabled by default. You could also set it so that only the first 5 or so of the possible religions will be founded.


It would also be nice if you could officially sanction some non-state religions to reap some benefits from them and to make them immune to inquisition in your cities. It is known that the Order Bannor tolerate (although don't particularly like) the worship of other good gods and officially support the temples Lugus and Sirona in their capital so long as these priests join in and aid in their crusades. I'm not at all sure how to implement this though.

 

[Tarquelne]

As it is now, captured cities that should have no love for the Emperor can immediately begin building his temples and units.... If you tie them to a guild, instead, you have to actively work to spread his worship across the empire.

Good point.

(OTOH, cities captured by the Scions do undergo a severe population loss. It could be assumed there's a lot of erm... "persuasion" involved. Though that can also be completely explained by the Scions particular Lifestyle Choice. Emperor-worship as Guild makes good sense in either case.)

 

[Valkrionn]

I'd rather you not change the Empyrean or Council of Esus to be guilds. In fact, I'd rather these new "religious guilds" be real religions, albeit probably unadoptable like the Cult of the Dragon once were. That way, they would be effected by Inquisition.

Would it be possible to implement an inquisition-like spell that affects guilds? As there are no real guilds anymore, it shouldn't be any more of a balance issue than inquisition itself.

 

[Mailbox]

Or just change Inquisition to remove guilds as well