Secondary Religions

[Valkrionn]

At first I was mildly curious why you would bother adding in other religions as Corporations instead of real religions, but I finally see the imoprtant difference. While you can have either one in a city, and spread either one with a standard unit, it is not possible to devote yourself to FOLLOW a corporation. So in that regard it starts to make sense.


Honestly... I think that I would move Esus and Empyrean over to being Corporations in that case. Neither one really seems much like something that a nation devotes itself to following. The first is already touted as being almost worthless to follow, but amazing to have. And the second is such an "ideal" concept that it is hard to think anyone follows it without a secondary agenda in a world like FfH.


So the goal would be not to design religions similar to the current ones, but to design the religions which are observed instead of worshipped.

Exactly. All I was really proposing originally was a guild providing a small bonus, like 2 culture for the Scions, or a small amount of research or some happiness, for the not-really-agnostic civs, showing that while it's not a major religion, they do have their own beliefs. I do like the ideas to expand it to other minor gods as well though... Specifically with Mulcarn. At the moment, the Illians tend to have low hammer output, while being ritual heavy... Personally, I'd like to see a Mulcarn 'guild', foundable with either their first ritual or a tech like priesthood, that would provide a certain amount of hammers for each ice square in the BFC, like happiness for the FoL. As they will always have the same amount of ice (either 19 or 20 squares, don't know if you count the city itself), you could set it to, say, 1/4 hammer per ice, giving 5 hammers relatively early. You could then allow the bonus to increase with certain techs or rituals, or even better, could use your Aspects idea and and allow terrain to age the same way you can age units.... Snow->Permafrost->Glacier? With each successive increase giving better benefits from the guild, allowing the Illians to maintain a decent hammer output.

 

[xienwolf]

I'd rather you not change the Empyrean or Council of Esus to be guilds. In fact, I'd rather these new "religious guilds" be real religions, albeit probably unadoptable like the Cult of the Dragon once were. That way, they would be effected by Inquisition.

It could also be nice to simply have the game options to disable the religions and have them disabled by default. You could also set it so that only the first 5 or so of the possible religions will be founded.


It would also be nice if you could officially sanction some non-state religions to reap some benefits from them and to make them immune to inquisition in your cities. It is known that the Order Bannor tolerate (although don't particularly like) the worship of other good gods and officially support the temples Lugus and Sirona in their capital so long as these priests join in and aid in their crusades. I'm not at all sure how to implement this though.

While at this point I am not changing anything (nor likely to until the idea is infectiously good), why precisely would you not want them changed out?

Overall, there is nothing that religions do now which we could not do with guilds as well. Could even have a "State Guild" concept to make it completely parallel to religions, but that would mildly defeat the entire point of the current proposal.

Your idea of the Order tolerating certain other religions would be perfectly demonstrated by having corporations only able to spread into cities with the appropriate religion, or having them removed along with certain religions. You could either have each religion allow 2 different Followings (no use calling them Guilds or Corporations for this concept), while each Following is possible for 2 religions (thus every religion overlaps Followings with 2 seperate religions).

Anyway, main point is, why say "no" to anything when you can instead just develop the idea to fit tastes/needs?

Would it be possible to implement an inquisition-like spell that affects guilds? As there are no real guilds anymore, it shouldn't be any more of a balance issue than inquisition itself.

Easily possible, either working current inquisition to hit both, making a new Following aimed inquisition, or really anything that seems to fit the final product.



Hrm... you could even make it so that Followings have a different effect based on what State religion you follow. White Hand could have no effect at all for someone with a state religion, Empyrean could only mean anything while following Order or RoK.... Lots of possibilities. I'll shut up now before the idea gets developed enough that it DOES become infectious, because I honestly have no time to code right now and I have better things to work on first.

 

[Tarquelne]

Easily possible ... or really anything that seems to fit the final product.

With Scions Following in a city the Doomsayer's "Inquisition" removes other Followings/Religions, reduces population by 1, and gives 1 free unit depending on Religion removed:

Order: Junil's Zombie Raiders
Veil: Wrath Wraith
OO: Mutant Monster Mummy
RoK: The Stone'd Dead
CoE: Shadoez Shadez
Emp:Sunshine Skeleton Skirmisher
FoL: Dead Tree Hugger

 

[sputnik323]

I like this idea... but i like the guilds made available through orbi modmod. I would prefer that all minor religions act more like guilds in its mechanics and called pagan or heathen religions, and add the coperations from orbi modmod.

 

[Valkrionn]

Your idea of the Order tolerating certain other religions would be perfectly demonstrated by having corporations only able to spread into cities with the appropriate religion, or having them removed along with certain religions. You could either have each religion allow 2 different Followings (no use calling them Guilds or Corporations for this concept), while each Following is possible for 2 religions (thus every religion overlaps Followings with 2 seperate religions).

Doing something like that would not only flesh out the minor cults quite nicely, it would add variation to the religions... Gives you more options to play with, especially if the Followings had different effects depending on which of the religions you pair them with.

 

[Skitters]

perhaps going off on a tangent, but would it be feasible to have minor religions blossom into full religions?

They would (presumably) be underpowered compared to the 'official' 7 religions as they may not have the religious heroes/building/units, but could be interesting to see if you could win a religious victory with the Cult of Tali!

 

[Tarquelne]

Honestly... I think that I would move Esus and Empyrean over to being Corporations in that case. Neither one really seems much like something that a nation devotes itself to following.

I'd rather see Esus and Empyrean "fixed." Probably more State-Religion-Only things for Esus, including changing most of the current "just need it in a city" items. For Empy.... maybe some significant bonus for being at peace, trading tech, and/or having Open Borders. (Rewards for "being nice.")

Doing something like that would not only flesh out the minor cults quite nicely, it would add variation to the religions... Gives you more options to play with, especially if the Followings had different effects depending on which of the religions you pair them with.

Given that Followings dedicated just to Scions and Lizards seems a bit of a waste. Maybe make the Scions Following more generic (perhaps they get a bonus if they found it, or even automatically found it) and compress the Lizards down to 1, and/or make it more generic.

For the Scions generic could be "National Cult" or the equivalent of God Emperor. (For now I'll take it as a point of faith that someone can suggest a name and effect that'd convey the basics of "God Emperor" without using the same name as the Civic.)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

totally agreed that Empyrean should reward being peaceful. right now it's actually a nice warmongering religion, which feels completely out of flavour :\

 

[BugReportage]

Perhaps a "Dwarven Vault" approach, a turn counter for peace gives bonuses.

 

[Valkrionn]

Given that, Followings dedicated just to Scions and Lizards seems a bit of a waste. Maybe make the Scions Following more generic (perhaps they get a bonus if they found it, or even automatically found it) and compress the Lizards down to 1, and/or make it more generic.

For the Scions generic could be "National Cult" or the equivalent of God Emperor. (For now I'll take it as a point of faith that someone can suggest a name and effect that'd convey the basics of "God Emperor" without using the same name as the Civic.)

True, but I'd still like to see those three available just for them, as it shows that they have their own religions... Probably too much if the system Xienwolf came up with was used though.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'd quite like to have the White hand available as a religion/guild instead of being Illian only.

 

[zup]

I'd like to see Council of Esus to be removed (as a religion at least) and replaced by say ... Mulcarn worship? There is one major flaw I see in CoE as it is implemented currently. That is Svartalfar ... Why would elves choose anything but FoL?

How about give any forest an 1/10000 or 1/20000 chance each turn to independently go anciet. And FoL makes the change much more rapid.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

totally agreed that CoE would be better as a guild than a religion. it's not even a religion. no temples, no disciples...

 

[Skitters]

totally agreed that CoE would be better as a guild than a religion. it's not even a religion. no temples, no disciples...

A lack of temples and disciples in itself doesn't mean it can't be a religion - it just implies that followers don't need the trappings of a temple to follow their beliefs and/or simply don't want to advertise those beliefs

Looking at the text in Xienwolf's 1.94b manual, it comes across as valuing the inidividual over society, and seems fairly secular.

As such I do wonder whether CoE as state religion should provide an additional boost to Liberty...

I would also like to see the opportunity to perhaps be able pay for a CoE unit to become a Healer though...(perhaps an additional National Unit?)

 

[Valkrionn]

totally agreed that CoE would be better as a guild than a religion. it's not even a religion. no temples, no disciples...

I agree. Right now, nearly all the perks of the religion can be attained just by having it in your cities... No need to adopt it.

 

[BugReportage]

A lack of temples and disciples in itself doesn't mean it can't be a religion - it just implies that followers don't need the trappings of a temple to follow their beliefs and/or simply don't want to advertise those beliefs

Actually the definition of disciple is someone who believes and helps to spread the doctrine of another.

The definition of religion is a set of beliefs and practices often organized around supernatural and moral claims, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law.

If no disciples were able to spread a religion then the religion would die as an idea with the thinker.

Spoiler :

The goal of every belief and religion is to spread, you may not PUBLICLY advertise it but any religion that doesn't have the goal of producing religious offspring will die by the laws of natural selection. Which apply to any organism that competes with others. Thus a religion competes with other religions for worshipers. By the definition I've laid out worshipers are the offspring of the religion. That's why religions that frown on sexual reproduction have died off over time, imagine if Christianity had stuck with the "we frown on sex" back in the Roman Empire? It'd be a dead religion.

CoE may be about deception but it's deception between individuals, CoE itself doesn't try to deter worshipers. I'm sure Esus would be more than happy to have worshipers and "deceive" others into worshiping him.

Note: It is of course possible for a religion to be passed on to CERTAIN individuals, but as I've said, this would lower the fitness of the religion and greatly increase the chance of that said religion becoming extinct due to a problem in a single generation. (A generation where no new worshipers are found and there is no one to pass the knowledge to.)

 

[Skitters]

okay, well then the followers *are* the disciples, there just isn't an organised clergy, and can happen to be a bit picky about whom they spread the word to. It still doesn't make CoE any less of a religion than the other 6


oooh...just learned a new word - laity: the body of religious worshipers, as distinguished from the clergy.