Sengir02 - The long view on cottage cheese
- Thread starter Meiz
- Start date
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Emperor with this variant
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-nocho- -Sengir- -Norvin- -sturick- -Whosit- -Meiz-
. . . What are you trying to say?
Anyway, I'm astounded that over a page was added to this thread since I last posted, but again I must remember that I'm in the wrong time zone.
OK, so although my opinion probably matters squat at this point, as things have been hammered out mostly in my absence, let me throw in my two gold anyway.
Leader: I'd really like a Financial leader. It looks like you set it on Monty now, but Capac could still be nice. It seems like if we're going to stab ourselves in the foot running cottages everywhere, we might as well get the most out of them that we can. The only benefit to Monty that I can think of is that his unique courthouse makes it easier to whip, but I have no idea if we're even going to get Code of Laws.
Second: Start the game, set it to Future Tech. Suck it. This truly is a masochist game, making my OCC-AW-Space Race win game look pale in comparison. I think my comment from way back yesterday was not quite understood: I realize that there are Future Techs 2, 3, etc. I meant to ask, once we've researched the first Future Tech (it was my understanding that we would actually research it), are we limited to researching only Future Techs, or are we then allowed to research things that we have skipped over? Or at least techs that might give us a chance to win (space techs, for example).
Great People/Specialists: As far as GP, I think if we manage to get one, we can do whatever we like with it. I've heard talk about the "spirit of the game" but frankly I'm not entirely sure what that is, unless it's just relying on the cottages. Unless it's the beeline to Future Techs. I'm not sure. I'm willing to say that we can only hire Citizen Specialists, yet that won't be too awful since we'll be hurting for hammers of any kind, anyway.
Difficulty: I don't care if you put this on Deity because I honestly don't expect to win. That doesn't mean I don't expect to have fun, in that "bang head against keyboard" kind of way. Of the several ways to victory, I'm not sure what we'll have available, partly because I haven't checked what our tech path will be.
Time: Maybe by some miracle we can live to 2050 AD and have the highest score. Conquest/Domination: Seems unlikely because we may or may not have the proper military techs and/or resources to field an army that matters.
Cultural: Possible, in theory, but without Specialists (artists) and the hammers to consistently build Wonders, probably not. Unless we shut off research at Future Tech 1 and go all Culture, maybe.
Space: I don't know if we'll have all the techs to build the ship, and I doubt we'll have the hammers to do it at more than a snail's pace.
Diplomatic: Possible; depends if we can keep our neighbors happy and if we build the U.N. I kind of get the feeling that we won't be large enough to qualify for elections.
I guess there's the espionage issue. I'm fine with no espionage, I don't really care that much, though.
And just because I'm Whosit, I reiterate: I think we need a Financial leader. Doesn't it keep in the "spirit" of this game? Unless the spirit of this game is to play the Civilization version of a quadriplegic. I'm putting my foot down, for what good that's worth.
Pindrus
Warlord
Good luck with this one folks, and some great discussion so far! Even if you don't use specialists, the pyramids might still be good for US--don't underestimate the power of rush-buying in hammer-poor cottage heavens!
Your long post means you're signing up, right Whosit? (Oh the pressure!) 
Hyana was the other considered option
. But you're forgetting one big advantage for Monty. He starts with Hunting so if we go with Hyana, no camp improvements or spearmen for us (unless GP bulbs / tech stealing allowed).
I was trying to be clear, but in a nutshell, if we reach Future Tech, we will continue with Future Tech 2 and so one. The techs missed in the way are missed for good (again, unless GP bulbs / tech stealing allowed). But imagine the worship if we actually manage to pull this off!
As far as I know, there hasn't been any talk about banning financial leaders. And we haven't decided on everything yet (people might even change their votes after your post), so go ahead and contribute by voting. Or if you want, I can just pick up your opinions from this post as counted votes.
Edit: Oh, and we can probably narrow our possible victories to conquest, domination, UN and time victory.
Hyana was the other considered option
. But you're forgetting one big advantage for Monty. He starts with Hunting so if we go with Hyana, no camp improvements or spearmen for us (unless GP bulbs / tech stealing allowed).I was trying to be clear, but in a nutshell, if we reach Future Tech, we will continue with Future Tech 2 and so one. The techs missed in the way are missed for good (again, unless GP bulbs / tech stealing allowed). But imagine the worship if we actually manage to pull this off!
And just because I'm Whosit, I reiterate: I think we need a Financial leader. Doesn't it keep in the "spirit" of this game? Unless the spirit of this game is to play the Civilization version of a quadriplegic. I'm putting my foot down, for what good that's worth.
As far as I know, there hasn't been any talk about banning financial leaders. And we haven't decided on everything yet (people might even change their votes after your post), so go ahead and contribute by voting. Or if you want, I can just pick up your opinions from this post as counted votes.
Edit: Oh, and we can probably narrow our possible victories to conquest, domination, UN and time victory.
Hey Pindrus, you finally got your custom avatar! 
And a nice one... Anyway, the mids will most probably be out of reach as masonry is researched really late.
And Whosit has a point with a financial leader. Some possibilities:
HC - Quecha! Industrious not much use apart from cheap forges. Not many wonders can be build without production to speak of. Agr+Myst.
WvO - Creative is nice for cheap and very early libraries. Fish+Agr
Mansa - Spiritual. No access to UU. Min + Wh. UB would be huge (+10% gold).
Pacal - Expansive. No access to UU. Myst + Min.
HC would be best for early survival. Somehow fancy Mansa, never played him. And it's nice to be the techwhore, if we survive.
Edit: I forget Darius, at least he starts with hunting. No immortals though. Organized is always good. Of course we also have the english, ragnar and wang (and maybe someone else) but don't fancy them.
And a nice one... Anyway, the mids will most probably be out of reach as masonry is researched really late.And Whosit has a point with a financial leader. Some possibilities:
HC - Quecha! Industrious not much use apart from cheap forges. Not many wonders can be build without production to speak of. Agr+Myst.
WvO - Creative is nice for cheap and very early libraries. Fish+Agr
Mansa - Spiritual. No access to UU. Min + Wh. UB would be huge (+10% gold).
Pacal - Expansive. No access to UU. Myst + Min.
HC would be best for early survival. Somehow fancy Mansa, never played him. And it's nice to be the techwhore, if we survive
.Edit: I forget Darius, at least he starts with hunting. No immortals though. Organized is always good. Of course we also have the english, ragnar and wang (and maybe someone else) but don't fancy them.
Whosit
Entropic Knight
The Dutch could be nice, though we probably won't make much use out of their unique unit. The Dike could be useful late game, though will we even get steam power? The Dike is like the levee, except more versatile: You can build it riverside or coastal, and it adds hammers to riverside tiles and all water tiles (it would stack with a Moai Statues). So, possible late-game production boost, so long as we can research Steam Power (I'll look into that).
Another plus for the Dutch is, as nocho pointed out, cheap libraries so we can quicken the pace on our research a bit.
Mansa would also be interesting, though note that his unique forge grants a bonus to gold, not income, so it's value would depend on the ratio of our slider. On the plus side, we get it early.
And, of course, the Inca. Early defense. However, I make this point: We're in this for the long haul, and while we do have to survive early on, the utility of the Quecha may be limited.
Do we have barbarians on? I don't recall that being mentioned. Hell, let's make them Raging! just to diminish our chances of survival.
Anyway, Quechas are pretty good for a unique Warrior, but against Axemen or even Spearmen they're not going to fare any better than standard warriors, so perhaps we should consider other traits or features that have a longer life span.
Another plus for the Dutch is, as nocho pointed out, cheap libraries so we can quicken the pace on our research a bit.
Mansa would also be interesting, though note that his unique forge grants a bonus to gold, not income, so it's value would depend on the ratio of our slider. On the plus side, we get it early.
And, of course, the Inca. Early defense. However, I make this point: We're in this for the long haul, and while we do have to survive early on, the utility of the Quecha may be limited.
Do we have barbarians on? I don't recall that being mentioned. Hell, let's make them Raging! just to diminish our chances of survival.
Anyway, Quechas are pretty good for a unique Warrior, but against Axemen or even Spearmen they're not going to fare any better than standard warriors, so perhaps we should consider other traits or features that have a longer life span.Barbarians will be on, but maybe not raging after all 
I still suggest Montezuma, because he gets us hunting and has a resourceless unit that we can get quickly, and which can deal with barbarians and even rush the nearest neighbor. What if we don't have access to bronze or iron? Can you say screwed?
I still suggest Montezuma, because he gets us hunting and has a resourceless unit that we can get quickly, and which can deal with barbarians and even rush the nearest neighbor. What if we don't have access to bronze or iron? Can you say screwed?
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Here's a point in favor for Willem v. Oranj: Steam Power is on the way to Future Tech, but most importantly for a certain minority: Animal Husbandry is tech #2 on the path!
Initial tech path is: Sailing < Animal Husbandry < Writing (so libraries pretty quickly). We will miss hunting and archery, though, so no camps. That means Ivory, Fur, and . . . Deer will be of little use to use.
I wonder how this will affect us. We will end up getting most of the techs eventually, but probably less efficiently, and we won't get Priesthood for the Oracle or Liberalism. Oh well, so it goes. But I am solidly voting for the Dutch now.
Oh, and are we turning off huts to eliminate the small glimmer of hope that we might pop hunting?
Initial tech path is: Sailing < Animal Husbandry < Writing (so libraries pretty quickly). We will miss hunting and archery, though, so no camps. That means Ivory, Fur, and . . . Deer will be of little use to use.
I wonder how this will affect us. We will end up getting most of the techs eventually, but probably less efficiently, and we won't get Priesthood for the Oracle or Liberalism. Oh well, so it goes. But I am solidly voting for the Dutch now.
Oh, and are we turning off huts to eliminate the small glimmer of hope that we might pop hunting?
I think a financial civ would be advisable. I just found out that we'll be researching astronomy as 15th tech, just before alphabet and mysticism. 
Another highlight is that we'll be busy on radio as 25th tech more or less, even before currency and CoL 
. I advise you to start a game and set to future tech and study the tree for a good laugh!
So the dutch UU will be available really soon, before we can build a monument. And steam power definitely is researched fwiw.
Oh, and if we have NO tech trading, NO espionage, NO barbarians will fit in nicely. And always peace. And chieftain.
Another highlight is that we'll be busy on radio as 25th tech more or less, even before currency and CoL . I advise you to start a game and set to future tech and study the tree for a good laugh! So the dutch UU will be available really soon, before we can build a monument
. And steam power definitely is researched fwiw.Oh, and if we have NO tech trading, NO espionage, NO barbarians will fit in nicely. And always peace. And chieftain
.The point was that we beeline to pottery first and then set to future tech. Then we won't have AH I can assure you. I also proposed future tech from the get-go but some evil tyrant turned it down... (maybe wisely, for that matter)
I am leaning more towards WvO at this point.
His financial trait will help a great deal early on. And later on for that matter.
If and when we take over cities we will have to grow new cottages from the ground up!
His creative trait means we never have to waste hammers on monuments.
Cheap theatres have already been mentioned.
His UU might come in handy...probably not but you never know.
His UB will be invaluable to us with a cottage economy.
Granted, Steam Power is like the 44th tech on the road to future tech. But when we get them they will bump production in almost every single city we own.
The only benefits to Monty I see are:
His resourceless UU...only beneficial if we lack copper and iron.
That is only a slight possibilty in my eyes.
His UB won't be available until after Steam Power...so no whipping bonus.
Access to hunting gets us access to ivory, deer, and furs.
Ivory would be nice...but tell me...how often do you see deer and furs? Especially on a continents map that will lose much of the tundra you find them on.
Spiritual allows to change civics often and gives us cheap temples.
Not the best.
Aggressive would be nice giving us cheap barracks and extra promos.
But I think our game will be more diplomatic than warlike.
All in all, I vote for WvO but I won't be crushed if we stick with Monty.
Just wanted to put out some pros and cons.
His financial trait will help a great deal early on. And later on for that matter.
If and when we take over cities we will have to grow new cottages from the ground up!
His creative trait means we never have to waste hammers on monuments.
Cheap theatres have already been mentioned.
His UU might come in handy...probably not but you never know.
His UB will be invaluable to us with a cottage economy.
Granted, Steam Power is like the 44th tech on the road to future tech. But when we get them they will bump production in almost every single city we own.
The only benefits to Monty I see are:
His resourceless UU...only beneficial if we lack copper and iron.
That is only a slight possibilty in my eyes.
His UB won't be available until after Steam Power...so no whipping bonus.
Access to hunting gets us access to ivory, deer, and furs.
Ivory would be nice...but tell me...how often do you see deer and furs? Especially on a continents map that will lose much of the tundra you find them on.
Spiritual allows to change civics often and gives us cheap temples.
Not the best.
Aggressive would be nice giving us cheap barracks and extra promos.
But I think our game will be more diplomatic than warlike.
All in all, I vote for WvO but I won't be crushed if we stick with Monty.
Just wanted to put out some pros and cons.
Yeah, CoL comes after we have combustion and sattelites!! So we'll never see Monty's unique buidling.
Another interesting part of this variant is that nearly all civics techs are bypassed. Luckily we can get slavery and then Monarchy and Theology come by, though pretty late. So also be prepared for subpar civics for a long time. We may have to conquer the mids and the shwedagon paya.
I'm getting convinced monarch will be tough, so those who wished a challenge can be happy.
I also fancy WvO now and just pray we don't get attacked soon.
Another interesting part of this variant is that nearly all civics techs are bypassed. Luckily we can get slavery and then Monarchy and Theology come by, though pretty late. So also be prepared for subpar civics for a long time. We may have to conquer the mids and the shwedagon paya.
I'm getting convinced monarch will be tough, so those who wished a challenge can be happy.
I also fancy WvO now and just pray we don't get attacked soon.
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Oops, forgot that point. Umm, well, guess not.
Pottery was #8 or something. I really have no idea why the tech path turns out so convoluted.But, it may be for the best. Animal Husbandry is kind of critical for two reasons I can think of right now: Food, but even more so Health. Cows, Pigs, Sheep, if we find them, are health bonuses. Not the best, but take what you get. We want to work a lot of tiles, but we'll be limited by our health cap (and our happy cap to a lesser extent I imagine. Well, under normal circumstances).
Norvin_Green
Emperor
I'm also convinced on Willem as leader, and I also changed my vote on couple of other matters. I think we should still not make any expections on the tech tree. Or delay Pottery either (how are we reseaching anything without cottages or specialists?). Yes, AH is very important technology, but the challence is to win the game without the advantage of some of the most essential techs (or die trying). I assure you, we will also be missing culture slider if we end up in modern warfare. Not to mention Emanicapation... At least we have HR to counter the unhappiness
Since we pretty much voted that GP's have no restrictions, we might still have a chance to lightbulb Hunting and AH! And huts are turned on, so start praying guys.
I've updated the settings on the main page, but these will be final only after I have rolled the start. That won't be happening in the next 12 hours, so let's keep discussing
Since we pretty much voted that GP's have no restrictions, we might still have a chance to lightbulb Hunting and AH!
And huts are turned on, so start praying guys.I've updated the settings on the main page, but these will be final only after I have rolled the start. That won't be happening in the next 12 hours, so let's keep discussing
Okay, you asked for it!Since we pretty much voted that GP's have no restrictions, we might still have a chance to lightbulb Hunting and AH!
I've updated the settings on the main page, but these will be final only after I have rolled the start. That won't be happening in the next 12 hours, so let's keep discussing
No seriously, there is just one thing I want to whine about and that is the specialists rule. As it stands I understand we can't have any specialist until after size 21... As we'll likely won't get any wonders until maybe very late game, it means no Great People AT ALL. Well, maybe the free scientist from physics. How about being allowed one city where we can freely assign specialists, if it were our GP farm? Just one city, c'mon... 
Since you asked so nicely (and I see your point), I'll add that we can have one GP farm that doesn't have this restriction. Hope that's simpe enough.
It is true that GP's bring nice additional variety for our game planning (like planning for specific GP to bulb a tech that we would otherwise miss).
It is true that GP's bring nice additional variety for our game planning (like planning for specific GP to bulb a tech that we would otherwise miss).
