SGFN-05: India Stomps the World

[Optional]

In fairness, though, I should point out that if we do settle one SE of the horses, we won't EVER get the fish.

What about settling one tile NW of there, on the forest? That still gives immediate use of the Horses (well, we need a road, but no expansion), and an expansion will give us the fish. Apart from losing the forest, I don't see a disadvantage. Every option will give us river placement.
We probably need Thinktank's save to be able to draw a clearer picture of it.

 

[TheOverseer714]

The save will not be available today, there is a notice about no uploads today. On another front, sorry to see you go Doug, if you want moved up in the roster to play sooner, that could be done. I am sure the roster will be changed more than once, as I said it was a provisional roster.

 

[anaxagoras]

That's 7 + 2 = 9 shields in that turn. So for the 2 turns in total you get 7 + 9 = 16 shields. That's 16 shields at the start of turn 3, not 18. Then in that third turn you're doing 3 irrigated cows + forest deer, making 9 shields, not 7. Twice you're making 9 shields, instead of doing 11 in the second turn and 7 in the third.

Optional, you are correct, the math is not right. My problem is, I'm not entirely sure what is correct. I always thought the classic example of a four-turn factory was 5f6s/5f8s. Then the shields are 6+8+8+*. In the last turn, you get 8 shields at a minimum, and anything over 8 is wasted.

If that's true, then in the Option 2 example ThinkTank uses, the shield progression should be 7+9+9+*, which gives a minimum of 34 shields, and probably more like 36.

But you are right, the listed progression cannot be correct.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Hmmm, maybe it's the size of the beast in question thats wrong. If it starts at size 4 and grows to 5 and finishes the settler on growth, returning to size 4, there would be 4 tiles in play on turn 1. I need to try to figure this out, I said maybe I'm wrong before. I don't know, this kind of stuff gives me a headache.

 

[ThinkTank]

I've added the save to post 30.

 

[ThinkTank]

@Optional and @anaxagoras: you're right about the numbers not being correct. These are the correct numbers (corrections indicated in bold):

Option 1.

Start of turn 1: size 3, 0 food, 0 shields. (Use 3 irigated cows: 5f7s)
Start of turn 2: size 3, 5 food, 7 shields. (MM: Use 2 irrigated cows, 1 irrigated FP: 5f5s)
Start of turn 3: size 4, 0 food, 14 shields. (Use 2 irrigated cows, 1 irrigated FP, forest deer: 5f7s)
Start of turn 4: size 4, 5 food, 21 shields. (Use 2 irrigated cows, 1 irrigated FP, forest deer: 5f7s)
Start of turn 5: size 3, 0 food, 0 shields (30 shields = settler produced). (MM to use 3 irigated cows: 5f7s).

Option 2.

Start of turn 1: size 3, 0 food, 0 shields. (Use 3 irigated cows: 5f7s)
Start of turn 2: size 3, 5 food, 7 shields. (Same)
Start of turn 3: size 4, 0 food, 16shields. (Use 3 irrigated cows, forest deer: 5f9s)
Start of turn 4: size 4, 5 food, 25 shields. (Same)
Start of turn 5: size 3, 0 food, 0 shields (36 shields = settler produced). (MM to use 3 irigated cows: 5f7s).

Option 3.

Start of turn 1: size 4, 0 food, 0 shields. (Use 2 irigated cows, deer, irrigated FP: 5f7s)
Start of turn 2: size 4, 5 food, 7 shields. (Same)
Start of turn 3: size 5, 0 food, 16 shields. (MM: Use 2 irrigated cows, deer, irrigated FP, some other 2 food tile: 5f7s)
Start of turn 4: size 5, 5 food, 23 shields. (Same)
Start of turn 5: size 4, 0 food, 0 shields (32 shields = settler produced). (MM to use 2 irrigated cows, deer, irrigated FP: 5f7s).

 

[Jorgo_Mono]

According to Rodent, I am up, so I downloaded the save. I will play sometime today or tomorrow. ThinkTank, should I expect a full turnlog from you sometime soon? Not demanding it, just wondering.

 

[anaxagoras]

What about settling one tile NW of there, on the forest? That still gives immediate use of the Horses (well, we need a road, but no expansion), and an expansion will give us the fish. Apart from losing the forest, I don't see a disadvantage.

The disadvantage is that almost half of the fat cross ends up on water. Also, assuming no border expansion for awhile, almost half of the initial squares are water, too. If you settle SW of the horses, you get 8 out of 9 potential shield-producing tiles. By settling on the forest, you sacrifice the forest itself and the production potential of three land squares in order to grab +2 food (+1 in despot) and +1 commerce (+0 in despot), which you'll only realize a few turns after you build a library (or, heaven forbid, a temple).

 

[ThinkTank]

According to Rodent, I am up, so I downloaded the save. I will play sometime today or tomorrow. ThinkTank, should I expect a full turnlog from you sometime soon? Not demanding it, just wondering.

I'm afraid I won't have time for the turnlog till tomorrow morning. Maybe you should wait for it, I don't know. There is a veteran German archer quite close to our ivory city, this means that if we declare on the Germans, we should have at least 1 good unit there besides the warrior for MP.

 

[Optional]

You make it sound a bit more watery than it is. The option of settlement furthest north will get you 6 landtiles straight away, 10 after expansion. That's not counting in the city centre.
No landtiles are being lost in this option, as other towns of us will be claiming those 3 or so tiles that can not be reached by settling north.
But I admit the advantage only comes after this towns expands, that requires culture, and culture is not something I would build early in a war variant like this.

 

[anaxagoras]

There is a veteran German archer quite close to our ivory city, this means that if we declare on the Germans, we should have at least 1 good unit there besides the warrior for MP.

Oh, that reminds me. Do we want to convert the build in Madras to a 'rax? We won't get a unit right away and we are just a few turns away from our DoW, but we are going to want at least two towns cranking out vets, and if we plan to build the SoZ we are going to want it to produce vet AC.

Any other comments on strategy?

 

[anaxagoras]

You make it sound a bit more watery than it is. The option of settlement furthest north will get you 6 landtiles straight away, 10 after expansion.

Maybe I misunderstood where you were proposing. I thought you were suggesting building the town due west of the northern horses. That would give 4 water & 5 land tiles now, and 10 water & 11 land tiles in the fat cross versus 1/8 now and 5/16 fat for the tile I proposed. Is that not the location you had in mind?

I do realize that all the land tiles would be theoretically be workable eventually. My point was that we would maximize production sooner by settling SW of the horses, instead of due west of them.

I don't want to , so I'm content to leave it in Jorgo's capable hands.

 

[Optional]

Any other comments on strategy?

Well, I'm sure the Great Library is not a good idea, considering we're already planning to build the Statue of Zeus. It would be suicide to devote even more shields to wonders.
The Statue of Zeus town will get a barracks, but there's no need to build the barracks before the Statue of Zeus. When the Statue of Zeus is built, that town will produce enough shields to allow us to build a barracks before the first Ancient Cavalry is produced.
We need units now. Bombay's military production hasn't even started yet. In my opinion we need units fom Bangalore as well.

Anaxagoras, I think you understood me right. I did suggest the spot straight west from the Horses. I come at 6 tiles straight away (7 with city centre) because there are two tiles inbetween Bombay and this new town that we would gain as well. If unexpanded towns are 3 tiles apart from each other, you'll get the ones in the middle for free. I believe you didn't count those.
I don't wanna be pushy with my opinion as well, but I believe we would miss out on a lot of the fun of playing SG if we wouldn't put your opinions forward. Until now I quite like this, actually!

 

[anaxagoras]

The Statue of Zeus town will get a barracks, but there's no need to build the barracks before the Statue of Zeus. When the Statue of Zeus is built, that town will produce enough shields to allow us to build a barracks before the first Ancient Cavalry is produced.

That's true if we are pre-building for the SoZ. Obviously, we haven't even hooked up the ivory yet, so I was thinking the town would produce a few vets before construction on the SoZ even begins. But perhaps you are correct that it is more important to get units out there now. Anyone else want to weigh in on that?

Anaxagoras, I think you understood me right. I did suggest the spot straight west from the Horses. I come at 6 tiles straight away (7 with city centre) because there are two tiles inbetween Bombay and this new town that we would gain as well.

Ah, you're right, I didn't count those, but probably should have.

I believe we would miss out on a lot of the fun of playing SG if we wouldn't put your opinions forward. Until now I quite like this, actually!

Discussions like these are why I play SGs. I learn something new every time I play another one.

 

[TheOverseer714]

A healthy debate never hurt anyone, and I believe it is a big part of the learning experience in an SG. I'm glad we can all be adults and keep it civil and rational I guess it's time to do another roster update, so here it is:

1: TheOverseer714=> sometime soon
2: Optional=> someday next month
3: ThinkTank=> just played
4: Jorgo Mono=>up
5: Anaxagoras=>on deck
6: Northen Wolf=> warming up
7: Rodent=> waiting
8: akk47=> waiting longer
9: Doug Lefelhocz=> Has withdrawn

 

[Optional]

I'm glad we can all be adults and keep it civil and rational

It were indeed very civilized and well weighted books Anax and me were throwing at each other.

 

[Jorgo_Mono]

...Jorgo's capable hands.

Haha, that's a good one!

But seriously, I'm going to wait for Thinktanks turn log before I play. I already threw the save in CivAssistII, and looked over things. The declaration of war with the Germans is going to happen on my time, isn't it? They have the most gold, and are three techs ahead of us...I'm scared.

 

[TheOverseer714]

They can only bite a little right now, Jorgo. Just remember to get an archer to kill any germans who can hurt us.

 

[Redman]

That's true if we are pre-building for the SoZ. Obviously, we haven't even hooked up the ivory yet, so I was thinking the town would produce a few vets before construction on the SoZ even begins.

lurker's comment: Remember there're more spots with ivory in the east to grab by AI, and possibilities to build SoZ by them.
Redman

 

[ThinkTank]

The turnlog:

Spoiler :

SGFN05

0: 2550 BC
Al is well. Next turn the lux slider needs to go up because Delhi will grow.

IBT- The venerable Bede has completes a great work of history and reports that we are the least happy people of the world, after the Greeks, Portugese, Vikings, Aztecs, Iroquois, Babylonians, and Germans. Doh.
Delhi has grown to 4 and the governor has selected the river forest on growth, we now do 3f9s. Change this to 2 irrigated cows, the forest deer, and the irrigated floodplain for 5f7s.

1: 2510 BC
Delhi has grown to 4 and the river forest was chosen on growth for 3f9s, change this to the floodplain (just now irrigated), 2 cows and the deer for 5f7s.
Worker starts roading the floodplain. Warrior03 into Delhi for MP, so we don't need to raise the lux slider.

IBT - nada

2: 2470 BC - Exploring warrior finds more ivory to our NE.

IBT
We meet a Greek Hoplite in the NE.
Delhi: settler -> settler

3: 2430 BC
MM Delhi to use the 3 cows for 5f7s, advisor says settler in 5, which is wrong, it is in 4, but hey, miscalculating a settler factory can happen to the best.
With the Greeks just met in the E I decide to go for red dot first, want to secure the ivory. Warrrior03 goes as escort with the settler, as there was a barbarian in that area.
Contact the Greeks, they are annoyed and have Masonry, The Wheel and Mysticism. Germany has the same techs, Babylon has nothing. Wait until Babylon has something on offer.

IBT - Exploring warrior meets an Aztec warrior in the NE.

4: 2390 BC
Exploring warrior moves and meets 2 Portugese warriors in the NE. It's looking like a party!
Move settler -warrior combo towards the ivory and see another Portugese warrior, that's 3 of them quite close. Wonder what they are up to.
Bombay has grown to 2. Dial up the Aztecs (polite) and Portugese (annoyed), they have the same three techs as the rest: Masonry, The Wheel and Mysticism.

IBT - All foreign units in the NE move towards the barbarian camp there.

5: 2350 BC
Delhi has grown. Lux slider to 20%. The deer has been selected on growth for 5f93. I exchange a cow for the irrigated floodplain for 5f7s. Tech situation unchanged.

IBT - not much

6: 2310 BC
Madras founded near the ivory, starts warrior. Tech situation unchanged.

IBT - Delhi: settler -> settler

7: 2270 BC
MM Delhi to use the 3 cows for 5f7s. Lux slider to 10%.
Tech situation: Babylon now has masonry. This opens the possibilities of a 2fer (2 for the price of 1) deal. I buy the Wheel, so we can see where the horses are, from the Portugese for 4gpt. The Portugese turn from annoyed to cautious. Then I trade The Wheel to the Babylonians for Masonry.
We have 2 sources of horses nearby, yes!

IBT - not much

8: 2230 BC
Settler arrives at yellow dot. Tech situation now: Germany has mysticism, Iron working and Mathematics, Ports and Aztecs have Mysticism, Iron working, and Greeks only have Mysticism.
This opens the possibility of a 3fer. Issue is we are only doing 3 gpt. I fake a higher gpt by (temporarily) turning all citizens to taxmen, and set the sliders at 0, then we are doing 9gpt. But Germany does not want to sell mathematics for this, IW is close to a deal, Mysticism can be bought for 8 gpt, but it has no trade value, since only the Babylonians don't have it and they have no money or techs to offer. So no deals possible. Set citizens back to works and the sliders back.

IBT - Bombay: rax -> archer

9: 2190 BC
Bangalore founded on yellow dot, starts archer.
Delhi has grown. Lux slider to 20%. The deer has been selected on growth for 5f93. I exchange a cow for the irrigated floodplain for 5f7s. Tech situation unchanged.

IBT - not much

10: 2150 BC
Exploring warrior spots a 3rd lux about 7 tiles SE of Madras. Final check if I can set up a tech deal. We have 25g and are doing 8gpt. With the sliders to 0 and all citizens to taxman we do 20 gpt. We cannot get math for this. But IW can be bought for around 11 gpt, Mysticism for about 7 gpt.
We could buy IW and then try to sell it o the Greeks for Mystic and possibly some money. Risk is that the Greeks are researching IW, so that for them it has little trade value.
We would then be doing -3 gpt, with only 25 in the box and still 11 turns to writing, which may get us the trade value to cover our debts. But 3 times 11 is more than 25. Now that can be solved by buying money (16 g for 1 gpt), but that makes the gamble on the trade value of wring even larger. So I decide no deals for now.