SGFN-05: India Stomps the World

[Jorgo_Mono]

Guys I only played 4 turns of my turn log, I plan on playing the rest later, but I need to know what I should do...

Spoiler :

0-2150:
All looks ok. *Deep Breath* I hit enter...

IBT
Dehli Settler--->Settler
Madras Warrior---> Archer

1-2110:
Rename Warrior Warrior04 and send it south to pop goody hut.
Warrior01 continues exploring
Send Settler east to claim horses.
Writing in 10, 33 gold with 7 gpt.
I hit enter...

IBT:
Aztecs are building Pyramids
Greek warrior moves towards our cites

2-2070:
Warrior01 continues Exploring
Worker begins watering square west of Madras
We boost up to 8gpt, Writing in 9
I hit enter...

IBT:
Greek Warrior moves very close to Madras. I get nervous
German Archer spotted near where I intended to settle. I get more nervous
Portugal is building the Oracle
Bombay Archer ----> Archer
Bangalore Warrior-----> Archer

3-2030
I move the Archer in Bombay to Mardas, hoping to eventually protect our new city when we declare.
I rename the warrior Warrior05 and fortify him in Bangalore.
I think I officially screwed up the settler factory in Delhi. I begin to regret signing up for this SG.
Writing in 8, 48 gold +7 per turn.
I hit enter...

IBT:
German Archer moves north, out of our vision.
Greek Warrior moves NE, still two squares away from Madras.

4-1990:
With a false click, I accidently moved the hut popping warrior in the wrong direction, it will take him longer to get there now.
Archer and Settler moves towards where I plan to settle. Damn, those rivers hard to run through.
Worker begins roading cow north of Bangalore.
Warrior 01 continues to explore
Portugal and Germany both know Horseback Riding
55 gold, 7gpt

City Overview:
Delhi: Size 4, Growth in 4, Settler in 1 turn
Bombay: Size 3, Growth in 4, Archer in 3
Bangalore: Size 1 Growth in 2, Archer in 6
Madras: Size 1, Growth in 2, Archer in 7

Germany won't sell us HBR straight up our 55 gold, so I can't buy it from them, because war will be declared within a few turns
Portagul however, will for 55 and 7 gpt for 20 turns. That's all of our treasury and all of our gpt. However, we are about to have horses in our territory. Hmmm...

Picture...

Spoiler :

What have I done wrong, and what can I do to fix it?

 

[Rodent]

No Worries. that price seems a bit exorbitant for HBR . Hold on a bit, as other civs gain that tech the price will reduce

 

[anaxagoras]

Looks to me like you are doing fine. Always good to stop and check, though. I would make very sure you move some protection to cover the settler. I'm not worried about Greece, but the moment you plop the settler down, you will need to declare war on Germany, and that German archer will be attracted to an unprotected city like a magnet.

I am still thinking we need another barracks. I would probably convert the archer build in Madras to that, but I'm not sure there is general agreement on that. Would other folks like to express an opinion? Perhaps make the first build in City Alpha 5 a 'rax? We could then use a forest chop to help.

 

[Northen Wolf]

AFAIK, barracks should be in any town that is inside core and produces attacking units, that 1 extra HP can and will win many battles, what town is most important, I don't know, I am thinking of Bangalore, Bombay and Madras need rax(if they don't have). Delhi does not need one, as it is building settlers.

As for trading resources, it is not prob. worth it, as we have no road/sea connection with anyone. Selling horses is very map like issue, sometimes (when Ai has horses) it is good to sell them, before ai links horses up.

Could anyone explain me that spiral exploration thing, how does that work? I've sent my 3-4 warriors out to explore into different directions.(n, e, w, s) and come back with almost full world map.

 

[Jorgo_Mono]

...moment you plop the settler down, you will need to declare war on Germany, and that German archer will be attracted to an unprotected city like a magnet.

I thought about that too. The Archer is on his way over, but he will not be there before the town in settled. That brings up this question: Am I allowed to purposely delay the founding of the town in order to delay the DoW? I'm not sure if that would be in the 'spirit of the game' or, even if it is, advisable.

 

[anaxagoras]

I mentioned that in passing earlier, and Overseer's answer implied that we need to settle as immediately as we would if we were not planning to declare. I have always assumed that was the spirit of the rule, so I think you should settle down just as soon as you get to your black dot.

@Northern Wolf: I'm not sure I'd build a 'rax in Bangalore. Delhi is the settler pump, and I think Bangalore should be our worker pump. We're building an archer there now because it is still early in the game and we are about to go to war against an unknown foe. But I hope we don't have to build barracks everywhere.

@Overseer: Are you maintaining the official war list? If I have read the logs right, so far our required war order is:
1. Germany
2. Babylon
3. Greece
4. Aztecs
5. Portugal

Am I missing anyone?

 

[Optional]

I would probably not have sent that warrior away to pop a goody hut in this situation.

You like every town to be guarded with more than one warrior just now, because of German archers around.

About Horseback Riding: that's a tech I always postpone buying as long as possible in my games so that I can build as much Chariots as possible. Chariots themselves aren't useful, but you can build them quicker than Horsemen. Then if I can't postpone getting Horseback Riding any longer, I upgrade all my Chariots to Horsemen.
It's not very applicable in this game perhaps, as we've made an expensive trade for Pottery in the early game, and we don't have too much money just now. Also I doubt whether we can log on to the Horses soon, with German archers around.
I still wouldn't pay any money for Horseback Riding right now. Maybe we can do some better trades once we've got Writing.

I haven't looked at everything in detail, but you seem to have done Ok, Jorgo. I believe we need to focus on getting a few more units out as soon as possible. Regular units from towns that haven't got a barracks, because we don't have the time to build barracks now.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I think that's the order of attack. Jorgo, you're doing fine, I've screwed up plenty of settler factories myself As far as settling, the rules are clear, settle the city and we'll deal with any consequences. Don't panic, this game will survive a few mistakes.

 

[ThinkTank]

I see 2 issues, but they don't have a lot to do with your play. BTW, if you still have to go through the IBT after turn 4, and the advisor says settler in 1, the settler factory is out of phase only if the food is not right. Anyway, good call to post for advise if you're not sure on what to do!

Then the issues. First is that if we found the new town right now or next turn we run the risk of loosing a city because it looks like we cannot have 2 units of reasonable force in the cities reachable by the German archer. Second is that declaring on a civ that has both HB and IW while we don't is sort of risky. So I would say we need to buy either HB or IW before declaring. And we need to address the veteran German archer before declaring. If that means tinkering with the rules of the variant, so be it - I think founding a town that you cannot keep is just plain stupid.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I can see your point, ThinkTank. How about a compromise? Wait til we get a second attacker to the site we have chosen before settling. Then we can declare. If then we lose the city, then that is the breaks. Since it is sort of an AW game, we shouldn't break the rules completely. Either that or change the rules. We could do a forbidden palace trigger or a UU trigger, but that might make it too easy. I don't know. I guess we could have a team vote. Change the trigger, or sandbag a little?

 

[ThinkTank]

How about a compromise? Wait til we get a second attacker to the site we have chosen before settling. Then we can declare.

This would be my choice. Found the town, but get a second vet archer in the area and then declare. Preferably, try to buy IW or HB before declaring.

If we want to stick to the rules, I would vote for moving the settler to safer spot.

 

[Jorgo_Mono]

I agree that waiting for a second vet archer would be a good compromise. I really don't want to do a different trigger, and if we really want to follow the exact rules of the game, I could just turn that settler right back around and find a safer spot to settle.

 

[anaxagoras]

I don't think we should avoid settling solely because we don't have the military we want. We knew the rules going in. If we didn't properly prepare, then we take our lumps. I do not think we should wait.

On the other hand, the black dot is not where I thought we would be settling. I thought we were planning to claim the northern horses and get a city on the coast. I would not object to turning the settler around so we can settle the coastal town - whether SW or due W of the northern horses. However, the settler should travel by the quickest route to the agreed site, we should settle immediately, and we should DoW the same turn.

If we wanted to wimp out, we shouldn't have picked a NOW variant.

 

[anaxagoras]

One other point: As far as I know, all this concern is over a single enemy archer. We have an archer of our own available, so the priority is making sure we know for sure where the enemy is and position our own archer so he can attack first. I don't think we should be so certain of our own doom, here. Yes, this is earlier than most of us would declare war, but that's the point. We do it to try to learn how to handle it. I'd rather stick to the rules and start another game if we get smoked.

Buck up, guys! Let's stick it out.

 

[ThinkTank]

anaxagoras does have a point that we should have seen this coming. I'm fine with turning the settler around. I'm not fine with being forced to play silly by the rules of the variant.

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:
Is not the whole point of a variant to win by following the rules? I have been in some where we replayed the whole set as someone failed to DoW upon contact.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I do recall in the game that inspired this that they broke their RoP reputation to avoid sandbagging. If we can't abide the rules, why play a variant? Variants add flavor and challenge, that's why we do variants. I'm pretty certain that if this wasn't a variant, it would be a cakewalk. We would win so easily, it would get boring. I noticed that the previous edition became boring in the later turns because it was too easy. So do we want a predictable and boring victory, or an exciting, dramatic game with twists and turns and some doubt to the outcome?

 

[ThinkTank]

Founding a city that we cannot keep strikes me as silly and so are the rules of the variant if they force us to do that. But I already said that. Is turning around the settler within the variant?

 

[TheOverseer714]

In the letter of the rules, yeah, we have to declare when we settle, and delaying settling number 5 fits there. In the spirit of the rules, it would be sandbagging. If we delay the settling too long, the AIs will happily surround us. Since this is obviously detracting from the game and delaying it, we need a team vote to break this impasse. So the vote is on these choices:
1. Delay settlement until we get reinforcement. or
2. Settle in place and hope our reinforcements get there in time. The arguments have been made, a decision is needed.

Optional votes #2.
ThinkTank votes #2 and has a typically brilliant plan to defend the town.
Jorgo Mono votes #2
The votes were unanimous for option #2.

 

[Optional]

Well, if we need everybody's vote, then I vote for settle and hope for the best!. If we don't do that, then it becomes quite hazy what rules we're actually playing by.
We might get lucky by one of our warriors managing to defeat that archer, and hopefully futher enforcements will be there soon.

On the point of buying Horseback Riding I would say that wouldn't get us anywhere if we haven't even got Horses hooked up yet.