SGOTM 01 - V Q

[ChrTh]

I think we need to be flexible. If we're on a small landmass with only our Always Peace partner (or by ourselves), a Scout would be totally useless.

 

[eektor]

Warrior should move NE-N-N-NW-NW-W-S-SW-W-SW-S-E-Fortify until healed (3 turns)-S-S-SW-W-S-SE-E-E-SE-S-S-Fortify until healed (5 turns) and I think that takes it to my turn

I agree with you but I think the 10th move should be W instead of SW

Ok the third thing to build is debatable and I guess I agree, it depends on what we find out from exploring.

As for the second tech, we could plan it more if we decide on where the city goes and I'm guessing we are split between SW and S. I think Pottery for cottages could be a good idea, but I can see how we could want mining or hunting first.

I don't think I've analyzed the beginning of a game as much as we have here.

Edit: Oops I misread your post bobrath. I thought you meant hunting for second tech. I think AH so we know where the horses are (as well as putting pasture on the cows), then we can decide if we need to make a rush for either bronze working for copper or hunting to protect ourselves.

 

[GreyFox]

@eektor: The extra hammer is not too useful for worker ... remember worker can be built as fast with food.

I am okay with SW, seems a much better choice health-wise, plus the defense bonus.

For builds order, I am okay with going warrior first, but not warrior, worker, warrior. I would advocate switching to worker once we grow, and not wait for wrrior to come out.

Not too familiar wth Epic speed, so not sure whether Hunting first is useful. Even if we con't get AH before worker is out, worker can always farm the floodplains first to further enhance growth. SO no need to be too concerned with timing AH and worker perfectly.

I would actually go worker first, just to farm the floodplains as soon as possible to encaourage growth, but again that is just me.

If we are not producing the scout, then suggest promoting that warroir with Hills or Forest promotions (what was the actual name? Woodsman and something ...) to gain the +1 movement among hills or forest (depending on which promotion we go for).

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[eektor]

If we build a city on the plain hill the warrior should be done by the time the city grows. After the city grows it can begin on the worker.

@eektor: The extra hammer is not too useful for worker ... remember worker can be built as fast with food.

Yes, I am aware workers are built on food too. Just remember we are at the beginning of the game and we are only working with 2 people or if we do the worker first 1 person. One hammer or food makes a difference.

I just made the worker point to show that it will shave some turns to offset the food we lost in that first turn to move to the plain hill. Even though I think the extra hammer every turn is more than enough to compensate the food lost in the first turn.

 

[namliaM]

First builds... I agree worker first is wrong here.. warrior then worker. I just can't take a chance that Inca is on our landmass. (even though we are all assuming they are not)

I am betting the Inca are on our landmass...

On research... even with worker first build Hunting + AH gets done in time for the worker to pasture the Cow Hunting+ AH = 21 turns where the Worker is 23 turns to build
If we do a warrior first we have more than enough time.

I will get a shot of Thebes on the hill....

So if I get this right, I think we all agree on these things.

- Research AH first
- Build warrior/worker/warrior

Right?

N O... See above. Even on the hill I think Hunting + AH gets finished before the worker (starting with a worker). If we go Warrior => Worker build then its gets finished sooner anyway.

Off topic: Yay page 5....

Back to topic, Thebes on the hill. remember Ice is unknown teritory...

​

Worker of the bat = 18 turns instead of 23
A warrior first = 11 turns (same amount of turns to grow to size 2) at size 2 worker takes 15 turns. Totaling 26 for the worker to pop.

Query: Hunting is 7 turns. Build a Barracks for 7 turns => Scout => Worker??
If we are going for a scout, lets get it as early as possible...
We could turn around the orignal warrior to protect home...
7 turns on the barracks (to discover hunting), 3 turns@size1 + 6turns@size2 = 9 turns Scout

At this point we are halfway to size 3. 6 turns from growing working the Cow and 5 turns working a FP.
A worker at size 3 = 13 turns

Not working the Cow will allow for Thebes to grow 1 turn after the scout is finished... But delays the scout by 2 turns. But if we do want to wait till size 3 it will make the worker 4 turns faster...
11 turns to size 2
9 turns to size 3 (building a scout +1 turn)
13 turns for the worker
== 33 turns to finish the worker.

Comparing to Turn 18 with the worker of the bat... That is 15 turns difference.
Comparing to Turn 26 on Warrior=> Worker... 7 turns difference...
I would have to run more simulation on the difference in commerce...

 

[GreyFox]

Wow. You guys are really taking this SGOTM very seriously ...

Hey, namliaM, post the world builder save you have at 4000BC so the rest of us can run our "own simulations" as well.

In fact, the rule says other on-deck players cannot open up the actual save and play a few turns ahead to see whats happens ... but nothing is stopping us from contsructing an exact replica of the current save game and testing with the replica to see the #of turns required to build XXX and research YYYY, or to check the effect on commerce from changing civics before playing the game, right?

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[AlanH]

Wow. You guys are really taking this SGOTM very seriously ...

Hey, namliaM, post the world builder save you have at 4000BC so the rest of us can run our "own simulations" as well.

In fact, the rule says other on-deck players cannot open up the actual save and play a few turns ahead to see whats happens ... but nothing is stopping us from contsructing an exact replica of the current save game and testing with the replica to see the #of turns required to build XXX and research YYYY, or to check the effect on commerce from changing civics before playing the game, right?

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An "exact replica" would be a copy of the actual save. That would be a no-no I'm sure you didn't mean that, but I want to remove any possibility of doubt.

As long as you only replicate what you can see, and make guesses about what you can't, this is OK.

 

[bobrath]

I like the idea of pre building the barraks and then knocking out a scout once Hunting comes in. The scout's better movement would make up for the delay in getting a protection warrior out. I'd still like to see us explore with our starting warrior. If we're unlucky enough to be next to another civ, at least lets hope we find them before they find us!

 

[GreyFox]

I just wanted to see if indeed every mod read our 5-page long thread...

Seriously, Yeah, what AlanH said is exactly what I meant, like what namliaM did. recreate the game based on what we know so far.

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Avtually, I wanted to test if going worker first would serve us better, since we start with Argiculture. My first instinct was to go with worker first ....

 

[Maquis]

I won't have a problem with exploring a bit with the starting warrior, until we get another unit trained. I just won't wander too far from the homeland

Obvioulsy, HC is the only one we would have to worry about, as no other Ai will attack us so early.

So... we're all in enough of an agreement on where to settle, 1SW?

Looks like there are 2 options for build/research...

1) Research Hunting - AH Put a few turns in Barracks, then Scout - worker?
2) Research AH - ?? Train Warrior - worker - ?

I'd have no problem going with #1, with hunting be a prereq for archery, which I would think we want to research soon enough anyways?

 

[namliaM]

See the world builder attached...

The move SW clearly makes for better health tho I personaly dont much care because of the FP -1 = 2 food principle... i.e. we still have the 2 food ...

But SW makes much better hammer wize and the early bird catches the worm right?

I say we take a copy of the save on turn one, play it all the way to domination, then try for Diplo. Which ever is quickest we enter ....

Going Hunting => AH works best I think... We want the early scout for recon ...

 

[bobrath]

I think we've analyzed enough for the first set of turns.... (understatment of the year (tm)).

So I'll be looking forward to seeing how our start goes - esp since I'm last in order which means I just have to clean up all your mistakes!

 

[namliaM]

Hehehe just trying to prevent mistakes here...


This would be the sittuation at turn 61 (the year 2170)
Highlights:
4000 Start hunting build worker
3430 Pop worker, 4 turns left on AH. Start Farming FP Start scout
3310 Turn prior stop farming. This turn AH in, start Pasture
3130 Scout done, Start warrior, Cow Done start farming again.
3040 Mining In, start Potts
3010 Warrior done (Defence), Start Barracks
2950 Farm done, start Mine
2740 Mine done, Make road on hill
2680 Pottery in, start BW
2650 Start Cottage
2590 Barracks done start warrior
2500 Warrior done (Settler escort) Start settler
2410 Cottage done, Start roading toward new city site
2200 BW in start Writing
2170 Settler done.

Scout got 33 turns of scouting done... 19 beakers in on writing

 

[ChrTh]

Ok, I think we've hit the overanalysis point

 

[bobrath]

Hehehe just trying to prevent mistakes here...

This would be the sittuation at turn 61 (the year 2170)
Highlights:
4000 Start hunting build worker
3430 Pop worker, 4 turns left on AH. Start Farming FP Start scout
3310 Turn prior stop farming. This turn AH in, start Pasture
3130 Scout done, Start warrior, Cow Done start farming again.
3040 Mining In, start Potts
3010 Warrior done (Defence), Start Barracks
2950 Farm done, start Mine
2740 Mine done, Make road on hill
2680 Pottery in, start BW
2650 Start Cottage
2590 Barracks done start warrior
2500 Warrior done (Settler escort) Start settler
2410 Cottage done, Start roading toward new city site
2200 BW in start Writing
2170 Settler done.

Scout got 33 turns of scouting done...

Why worker first instead of scout?

 

[namliaM]

Situation same year


Same research order
Build:
Barracks (waiting for hunting)
Hunting in => Scout
3400 Scout done, do 1 turn barracks to grow to 3 and start worker
3340 AH => Mining
3070 Mining => Pottery
2980 Worker => 1 turn farm => Barracks
2950 Start pasture
2770 Pasture done, Finish farm
2710 Pott => BW
2500 Barracks + Warrior done (Defence) (forget the date of the Barracks) Farm Done, start Mine
2410 Warrior done (Settler escort) Start settler
2290 Start Cottage
2200 BW in Start Writing.
2170
9 more beakers into writing, but 4 turns to go on the Settler.
Slightly more food in the bank ...
Scout gets 41 turns in on scouting

Why worker first instead of scout?

We start without Hunting so we need to research that first, this takes atleast 7 turns... This one is building a scout ASAP...

Ok, I think we've hit the overanalysis point

Yes probably, but this is a test i have wanted to do for a while. I think the later scout is very much worth it...

 

[ChrTh]

Why worker first instead of scout?

You can't build a scout until hunting is discovered. We could always switch from worker to scout once hunting comes in, but I think we're better off finishing the worker (if we choose to do worker instead of warrior) just in case we find we're on a small landmass via the warrior.

 

[bobrath]

Compairing those two scenarios... seems like the second one (barracks >> scout) puts us in a slightly better place.

1) We get an experienced warrior out sooner for defense.
2) More scout exploration is a good thing
3) We're ahead in tech and food which means we might be able to whip a bit sooner.

Sure its a downside that the settler isn't out already, but I think the choice to build a settler this early will depend in large part upon what our exploarion finds. (and thus the early scout is even more important)

 

[ChrTh]

I am super-glad I'm not Maquis, I'd hate to try to do the first 30 turns with all this info flying around

 

[Maquis]

Well, all this over-analysis will go out the window if we find horses in our BFC

On my way out the door now, but I'll post my (maybe) final thouhts on the start soon as I get home.