SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Ligthouse in Kyoto:
I remember (but can be wrong) that Kyoto has already a LH, probably Merum wish to build an harbor for better health (and don't forget the commerce, too).
That would be good for S&T, also.

Spanish war:
Perugia's point hoping Izzy can build a shrine in Toledo has a logic, but don't forget she already has a GProphet, next can be a GEng. (Pyramids).

It's a bet, if he's right we'll win a shrine, if not we just delay something we can do right now, obtainig better peace conditions.
Let's weight this reflection too.

CoL can't reveal us techs Izzy can have, i'm sure she hasn't CS, it's the only one in the path of CoL.
If She has Calendar, try to grab it, we can trade for cheaper techs with Bismark, gaining points of friendship, very useful if we plan to bribe him against Mansa.

@Merum
0400GMT ... pm or am?

About the whips: IMO we should avoid to go under size 3 in our new cities, but is just a thought.
good luck

 

[Sweetacshon]

0400 would be in 24 hr time.

 

[Merum]

Well, I was going to play again last night, but I fell asleep on the couch instead. Picked up the game this morning, and got this far.

T4 380

War weariness is beginning to be problematic for us. Time for peace.
I dial up Izzy and get peace. She pays Polytheism, Agriculture, and Pottery, plus 20g, and 1gpt.
Fish to Bismarck for silk
Crab to Bismarck for 3gpt
We don't have enough gold to research CS at 100%, so I shut it off for now.
Mansa has CoL, but Bismarck doesn't. Sadly, Bismarck won't trade us calendar for CoL, so I postpone trading right now. We'll see if he warms up in a turn or two.

I'm building two stacks: one for Madrid, and one for Toledo.

T5 395
zzzzzzz

T6 410
ummm.... ok. I'm going to stop for discussion here, because our strategy is about to go to hell. I think Santiago is about to flip to us.

We'd discussed razing it, but that was after we had raped Izzy again for tech. That's going to go out the window.

I have an idea though. Keep the city, gift it to Izzy right before we start the second war. Then we can raze it afterwards.

I'm not sure this idea will actually work, so I need some team discussion now.

misc: I mean the harbor will accelerate our growth in Kyoto due to better health.

Save is up if anybody wants to look at it.

I'll be back this evening to finish the turnset.

 

[Perugia]

Merum. Here are my comments.

Just checked and Bismarck had 0gpt to offer, dunno where I got 2 from.

We have a worker Zzzing in Barcelona - lets wake him and maybe move it to chop the forest inside the Seville borders towards the Courthouse (I don't like chopping outside borders as we get less hammers.) Also we could stagnate Seville by working the mine. The mine nets us 6 hammers towards the courthouse so I think it is worth it!

Barcelona border will expand in a few turns due to religion and we should start working the forest.

When or if Santiago flips, don't we get the chance to refuse to take it to save maintenance.

As our economy is in the toilet we could dump our 4 scientists and then gold would be breaking even while we would get more food to help Kyoto and Surf n Turf grow more unhappy faces that we can whip away in one turn + one happy. It might be an idea to start courthouse in these 2 cities now as they will be needed when the palace switches. Our workers should assist in building courthouses and cottages in the other cities.

Hopefully we will lose lots of suicide units when we attack Madrid to get unit upkeep under control. Osaka should be switching to Palace when the current axe completes as we will then have 15 axes and 5 swords plus whatever Tokyo builds. I like the stacks you are completing - don't forget there is an axe in Barce. Each stack has a medic so if the other stack fails the reserves can be moved to the other city while the damaged units heal up - nice job.

After we capture Madrid and take Toledo we will be able to declare peace for whatever Izzy will give - at least Priesthood and Meditation and exile her to Santiago.

 

[Merum]

We can refuse the city, in which case it would be razed. My thinking is that if we accept the city, and gift it back to her, we can then still employ the same tech-extortion that we were going to do earlier.

There's a spear on the way to Barcelona to replace the axeman, at which point he'll join the Madrid stack.

Palace in Osaka in 15. I've considered trying to chop it out quickly.

Have to run now, back in a bit.

 

[Perugia]

OK you convinced me on 2 counts - accept the city if it flips and run it for commerce - then gift it back asap. Barce already has archer so archer + spear will be fine and the axe can then move out in time.

Chopping the palace is a good move. But with only 2 workers we will only have time for 2-3 chops so these can all be outside the fat cross to save on health (currently 7/7) unless we want to clear the 2 forests on the river for the commerce bonus.

Other forests outside fat cross are 1) on the hill to the S 3 tiles away. 2) 2 tile NE and maybe the one N of that (but that might go to Seville or Tokyo).

The one in the far S is near barb country and is could be left until later however any escort would get 75% defence bonus from the forest on hill droppng to 50% whent he chop completes which should be Ok

The palace is more important than Seville and Barce builds so the worker in Barce should head to Osaka now and start chopping. Kyoto and Surn n Turf should switch to corthouses now these will be more profitable to our economy than markets when the capital moves.

Good luck.

 

[Merum]

T6 (continued)
Switch to Palace in Osaka
Switch Kyoto and S/T to courthouse builds. I'll whip them when the Palace is closer to completion.
Move workers to chop for the palace
Barb sword approaching Osaka. Move some units around to respond.
More exploration reveals Mansa on either side of Bismarck. He must love that.

T7
We meet Kublai Khan of the Mongols.
Mansa has alphabet, so it's time for us to trade stuff around before he does.
Code of Laws goes to Bismarck for Calendar + 20g
Code of Laws goes to Kublai for Meditation, Priesthood, Masonry, and 20g
Mansa gets nothing.
Wait a turn to see what, if anything, is revealed.
Santiago didn't flip.

T8

I think I see English borders peeking through the fog
Bismarck has construction, not interested in trading
Best I can get for alphabet right now is monotheism. Not sure it's worth it. Monarchy would cost us Alphabet + 70.
Whip courts in Kyoto and S&T for 2 pop each.

T9

What I thought were english borders was more Germany. I did meet Hatshepsut though, and she was kind enough to give us

monarchy for CoL, straight up.I sign OB with both Kublai Khan and Hatshepsut at this time, to continue exploration.

T10

Hatty approaches us offering Construction +50g for Compass. VERY tempting.
Our gambit might work. Ananda (GP) was just born in Madrid. Does she need OB to get him to Toledo? No matter. She won't sign one with us, anyway.

Parting thoughts: Our strategy to war for tech on Isabella was a good one, but has become largely irrelevant due to our trades with other nations. I think we may just as well take her out in the next war, unless something radically changes.

Isabella cannot get her prophet to Toledo, as we block the coasts and all the land, and she won't sign OB with us. If we want a shrine there, I think we're going to have to build it ourselves.

We may be able to reach tech parity with the other nations by trading compass. However, at 0% research, we'll very quickly fall behind again. We are negative now, even at 0% science. The palace move (due in 8) will help. The workers are headed for the hill S of Osaka to chop that as the second chop.

We might consider how we could get Bismarck and Kublai Khan to gang up on Mansa.

I think we should think really hard about getting construction and whatever else we can get from compass, before somebody else discovers it.

There's one civ to meet yet. I wonder who it will be. I've been expecting to find the Chinese in this Japanese scenario, but maybe not.

Here is the Save

Turn Log

Spoiler :

Turn 194, 410 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman (6.00) vs Fifth Element's Sushi II (Axeman) (12.25)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Combat Odds: 0.8%
Turn 194, 410 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 194, 410 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 194, 410 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 194, 410 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Fifth Element's Sushi II (Axeman) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Barbarian's Swordsman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 194, 410 AD: Fifth Element's Sushi II (Axeman) has defeated Barbarian's Swordsman!

Turn 195, 425 AD: You have discovered Calendar!
Turn 195, 425 AD: You have discovered Meditation!
Turn 195, 425 AD: You have discovered Priesthood!
Turn 195, 425 AD: You have discovered Masonry!

Turn 196, 440 AD: You have constructed a Courthouse in Kyoto. Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 196, 440 AD: You have constructed a Courthouse in Surf and Turf. Work has now begun on a Market.

Turn 197, 455 AD: You have discovered Monarchy!
Turn 197, 455 AD: The borders of Barcelona have expanded!

Turn 198, 470 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 36 $ for Osaka.
Turn 198, 470 AD: Ananda has been born in Madrid!

A global view of our world right now is very interesting:

 

[Perugia]

Isabella cannot get her prophet to Toledo, as we block the coasts and all the land, and she won't sign OB with us. If we want a shrine there, I think we're going to have to build it ourselves.

There's one last hope.

When we redeclare it will take some time for our SoD to reach Madrid. With luck the Great Prophet will take advantage of the borders re-opening due to the war to travel overland or along the coast to Toledo. So I suggest we should hold off capturing Toledo for as long as possible and certainly at least until we are ready to attack Madrid by which time, and with luck, we will see the Great Prophet in transit. This is a bit of a long shot but it might just work.

Merum's right, the Global view really is interesting. It looks like Kyoto could be sitting in the middle of it's own ocean. If so our workboat and galley will eventually meet somewhere N of Surf n Turf, ice permitting!

Other thoughts this screenie raises are: - is there a second culture bridge in the West between New Serai and Surf n Turf and how soon can we get some scouts over to the German continent to explore inland.

Also if the remaining land is all centred around Kyoto then we really will want a government centre there but that will have to wait until FP as we need to get research back on track.

With all the trading opportunities on the main continent I don't have a problem in eliminating Izzy at the next opportunity we need to get on with fixing our economy and learning optics.

I would take construction now for compass and trade around for whatever else we can get, we can then immediately swithc unit production to catapults. When we redeclare on Izzy just 1 or 2 catapults at Madrid will greatly help ensure victory by reducing the city defenses and benefiting massively from collateral damage due the vast numbers of defenders stacked there.

What's more the bridges will speed up our unit movement and also help workers get to where they are needed faster.

Sweetacshon (up)
Perugia (on deck)
BLubmuz
Doom Train
Brian S
Merum (resting)

PS

I've been expecting to find the Chinese in this Japanese scenario, but maybe not.

This reminds me of one of the naff tips you see when the game loads

Never fight a land war in Asia

Well since we are Island based that will be OK then!??!

 

[BrianS]

Nice turnset Merum, although I fear that the swap gave me all the fun and you got stuck with the clean-up!

I agree with Perugia on trading for construction. It will make a big difference in taking Madrid.

Given our decision to end Izzy's short life in the next war, are we agreed to disband Santiago if it flips to us? I don't think we want to be stuck with it.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm a bit busy in RL, and with GotM10, but i find the time to look at the progress.

Seems that all proceed in the best way, choose the right trade is always difficult, but i agree with all the moves.

The 10 turns has been a good choice, not only for the war, but for the events happened.

I hope i'll can fight a bit, though i guess i wouldn't see Izzy in my TS.

Nice job all, good luck Sweetacshon.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Got it, I'll post plans soon, and considering you are all probably asleep, I'll play a bit later in case there are any more ideas.

 

[Merum]

pfft. I'm not asleep... what you think I am, old?

 

[Sweetacshon]

Hmm.. forgot to actually post plans

1. Trade away compass, as everyone seems to be in favour of. We can get const + cash and mono, horse rid + cash for compass... but who do we want to concentrate on. MM and KK are annoyed at each other, otherwise:
Bismark - +1 peace +2 trade -1 religion
Hatty - +1 peace -3 religion
KK - +1 peace +4 trade
Izzy - won't you just die??
MM - +1 peace -4 relig -4 enemy trade ( I guess KK)
We have 2 trades... what do you think?

It looks like I will play some peaceful "eye of the storm" turns this TS. I will do the 2 trades, and see what I can get for clams, etc, and build a couple of cataputs... might even whip, we'll see. Kyoto and T&S are unhappy, so will slow growth there. The only other thing is more sea exploration.

I am off to the pub to see a band and will play when I get home, maybe around 0200-0300 GMT.

 

[Perugia]

I'm sort of stating the obvious here but we have a bit of a dilemma - with all the OBs it won't be long before Kyoto and Surf n Turf get religion. Ideally we want to make friends with the civ(s) that have this or these religions. The trouble is we have no control as to which religions unless we revoke some of the OBs but we want all the OBs for exploration.

I think at this point we just have to ignore religions and choose from the existing power blocks. Clearly though we should avoid trading with MM and try to make KK our friend as the swingometer is already heading that way.

I don't understand why having unhappiness in Kyoto and Surf n Turf is a big deal. I just see them as a reserve of pop waiting to be whipped at the right moment . By all means run specialists even citizens to convert surplus food into hammers and commerce but don't worry specifically about the actual unhappiness at least until they actually start starving!

Apart from that I absolutely ratify the plan incl. trades. Good luck.

PS I hope the beer was hot cool and the band cool hot.

 

[Sweetacshon]

The band was... standard (at least they didn't play Brown Eyed Girl), but the beer was great. Hopefully I'm not over the limit to steer this ship.

Turn 1 485AD
Traded compass to KK and Bismark (just because he is lower in score), clams to Hatty.

Turn 2 500AD
Meet Mao (Merum was right!) N of Hatty. He is of a similar score, but has no techs to trade us (and no money for our techs). He has wine, and I consider cancelling Bismarks 3gpt crab for it. Stil within 10 turns, so no go. Sign OB. He is Buhddist also, btw, and dislikes MM.... that bit will be too easy

Turn 3 515AD
Meet HC Incas strolling thru KKs backyard (annoyed already -2 religion, he's a Jew) - but he's at war with MM! He has Philo and MC, and won't OB.

Turn 4 530AD zzzz

Turn 5 545AD Peace treaty with Izzy over.

Turn 6 560AD
Palace finished with forest chop (health problem now, tho) +29gpt with 0% yeehahh. Hatty and Bismark cancel gpt deals We didn't think about that consequence, did we?

Turn 7 575AD
Religion in Kyoto, unfortunately its MM's Hinduism. People have Lit and Feudalism, but ony MM will do Fued for Compass.

Turn 8 590AD zzzzzzzz

Turn 9 605AD
Cats are ready, another due in 4.
Looking at courthouses in New Japan and with mainenance at -3 ... wondering if other buildings wouldn't be more useful right now.

Turn 10 620AD zzzzzzz

Turn 11 635AD
HC wants us to go to war with MM. I have a few turns left, but I'll save it here so we can talk about HC.

 

[Sweetacshon]

OK, so I saved the game during the chat with HC, and I was wondering if I'd still be in the chat when I loaded - which I wasn't, and HC didn't remember the conversation. I don't consider I cheated here, because:
1. we most likely weren't going to war anyway (I didn't want to)
2. I was saving the game to pass on, not to exploit
3. We possibly avoided a -1 modifier for not helping during wartime, but this modifier is temporary.
Sorry guys, that's the first time I've tried that, I thought it might work.

Anyway, considering there was no way back, I went forward until the cats were in position (where I was always meaning to stop)

Turn 12 650AD
Taoism in S&T (where from? nobody's state rel, and I can't see it)

Turn 13 665AD
Cats in position. Saved.

Continuation:
The stacks are ready to move in THIS turn:
Madrid - 2 Cat, 4 Swd, 8 Ax, Spr
Toledo - Cat, 2 Swd, Ax, Spr, War
Maybe we could send one of the barb defenders SW of Osaka to act as a reserve for the Toledo attack, just in case.

The other civs are starting to get tetchy about religions. I didn't switch to MM's Hindu, as noone really likes him, and Hindu Bismark is too small. Bhuddist Hatty, KK, and Mao is the power block. But we don't have Bhudda, so can we hold out, or go for the Hindus?


What about getting another settler out for the stone island near Kyoto before someone nabs it? I should've started that. Also maybe some more defenders in the sea cities might be in order. Kyoto and S&T are struggling now, both building markets which won't help happiness right now (until we can get ocean trade to them), happiness is now a big problem, so perhaps Collisseum and then harbour might be the go - maybe even before the markets.

I ran at 0% science the whole time. We can afford 100% for CS in 2-3 turns, if we still want this. As I said MM is the only one willing to trade Feudalism.

What is she up to?


The map


The save

 

[Perugia]

A brilliant turnset and thanks for setting things up so well for a final push on Izzy.

Although we did not forsee losing the trade routes with the palace jump, I think we would still have done it as the drop in city maintenance far outweighed any gpt we could get for selling our health resources. Losing access to happy resources is a bit of a blow but with only the 2 cities connected any trade swap deal would be very favourable to the AI - even our temporary friends.

I like the stone island idea from the possibility of nabbing another religion but maybe we can found a bridgehead on the mainland instead - I know stone doubles the build rate of certain buildings & wonders but I doubt any of those are necessary for a fast conquest victory.

On the other hand we really don't want to have to capture one tile islands from the AI to win. I think we should perhaps save on maintenance by garrisoning the tile with a settler but not actually founding unless an AI settler lands. We did this successfully in SGOTM01and eventually our culture spread to the tile and the settler founded elsewhere.

I am just going to get a cup of tea now and will be back later after looking at the save to post an outline plan for review. I'll then play tomorrow.

 

[Merum]

Remember, Madrid is settled on stone. Therefore, the only strategic advantage we will realize is not allowing the AI to settle a one-tile island. We'll pick up whales, eventually, but they will quickly become obsolete.

Somebody better check to see if that road the rogue spanish worker is building is headed to another spanish city.

 

[Perugia]

OK having reminded myself about the map I think we should take stone Island but try to delay founding until we are close to optics. We can have WB's ready so the whales come into play.

On the diplo/religious side we can obtain Buddhism by capturing Phonecian off MM so eventually we can side with Hatty, KK and Mao. In the medium term we could switch to Buddhism to butter up Bismarck whilst using Organised Religion to get the former MM cities into shape.

Mao is offering Lit and30g for our compass which is a prety good deal at the moment as soon compass will have no value.

Here's the immediate plan

1) Sell a tech to Izzy for her 30g then Dow. Move the cats and a defending force directly towards Madrid. Send a secondary force to repillage the copper if required. Leave a third force inside our borders for 2 maybe 3 turns to save on supply costs as it will take at least that long to bombard Madrid's defenses to zero. I'll take the axe & spear in Barce along for the ride.

2) In the south I'll take all barb defenders along I can spare to ensure victory at Toledo however I think I will move the stack to raze Santiago first so as to give Izzy the maximum time to get her Great Prophet to Toledo. There's an unguarded worker I will capture while sending a scouting force to Toledo.

3) Switch to Organised Religion.

4) Sell compass to Mao for Literature + 30g so we get the option to start the National and Heroic Epics. Before I start we need to think about probalble city specialisation.

5) I think Madrid would make a good great person farm with sheep, rice, fish, deer, fw lake and 3 farms available. It will also have some production capability from the copper and horses.

6) Osaka lookes pretty much a no brainer for the Heroic Epic.

7) Research. Metal Casting > Machinery (Beelining for Optics). With possible diversion to Civil Service. after MC

8) Once MC is in start some forges as we can then use the pop rush exploit to get 88 hammers for -1 pop!

9) Adopt a builder strategy for our cities to enhance the post war economy. I agree with Sweetacshon that the courthouses in Barce and Seville could be put down the queue as together they only save 3gpt at the moment. Granaries seem more important at the moment so we can get the whip out.

10) We will want to start a 6th courthouse (most likely Madrid) and we can then time completion of these 3 courthouses to be simultaneous after which we can start the FP in Kyoto.

11) I'm going to put the markets in Surf n Turf and Kyoto on hold as they won't really help until we have whales. So instead I'll start some temples to help happiness and think about a second defender.

 

[BLubmuz]

Good TS, Sweetacshon, and good plan, Perugia.

Nothing to complain, except (maybe) HE in Osaka: No more Nwonders there if you build it, let's give IronW a chance in that powerhouse.
Of course, NE in Madrid, it's a GP farm.
just remember to switch civic during war time, to minimize WW and to use at best the unrest turns in conquered cities.

Feudalism for compass??? I can't believe ... "it's a good deal".

Good luck (not much needed with cats againt archers).

After this we'll have to plan our expansion in new Japan, for sure there's some good site.