SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

BrianS · Sep 6, 2006

Excellent turnset Sweetacshon.

Sounds like a good plan Perugia. Good luck.

Sweetacshon · Sep 6, 2006

Good plan, Perugia, just one thing, health is more of a problem than happy in Kyoto, iirc, so maybe a harbour there first?

I seem to have missed the trade with Mao, sorry - sounds worth it :thumbsup:

I'm glad Izzy has a few workers.... we really need some for the jungle around her old.. I mean, our new cities

Perugia · Sep 7, 2006

BLumbuz. The good news is that the palace national wonder does not count against the 2 national wonders per city limit so we can have Palace + HE + IW in Osaka for an even better powerhouse under Bureaucracy

.

PS I learned this the same way as you in an earlier forum!

Sorry but it's Literature for Compass not Feudalism. I'm personally not too hung up about not having Feudalism any time soon. We are not likely to be wanting to use vassalage and serfdom just now and probably have limited needs for longbowmen given our geographic position and victory conditions.

Good point about having the revolution in war time. Although I'm now having second thoughts on the immediate switch to OR as it might be worth delaying until we have learned CS and captured the Pyramids so we only need one revolution in this era.

I'll check on F3 whether one mega civic switch into Representation, Bureaucracy & Organised Religion will have less anarchy than 2 separate revolutions.

Regarding luck and cats vs archers. As we are likely to be under pressure to disband units after this war I'll be managing the Madrid attack to suicide our less experienced units in order to increase the survivability of our elite troops.
Sweetacshon. I'll check but would be surprised if unhealthiness is more of an issue in Kyoto than unhappiness, a few food lost to unhealthiness not a big deal compared to having just one idle citizen due to unhappiness. Besides with Temples we can run a priest specialist for extra hammers instead of basic citizen specialists. IMHO harbours although useful come lower down in the queue for Kyoto (and Surf n Turf).

At this stage, I think granaries would be better than harbours though this is not so clear cut as harbours will also give us a small trade route bonus (currently +2cpt for Kyoto).

BLubmuz · Sep 7, 2006

@Perugia
just to see if you was prepared :joke:

well, seriously: i moved the Palace maybe once in all my civ games, then ...

About revolution, it's what I was meaning: ASA you'll capture Madrid, revolt to Representation and OR.
Of course, if CS is near, it's worth to wait for it.
This way we need max 3 turns for 3 civic changes and we'll not loose unrest turns in new conquered cities.

Literature for compass seems poor, we can research ourselves, at this time in the game.
Once revolted, we can build GL in Osaka.

Perugia · Sep 7, 2006

BLumbuz

I made the Lit deal anyhow as compass is already known but the majority of AIs and will soon have no value.

I already revolted to OR as it cost only 1 turn of anarchy and we gain the benefit sooner. The same will go for representation as we are still some way off CS due to the war (due in 8 or 9)

Here are my notes so far (sorry but not worked up)

Pre-turn 665 AD

Sell Compass to Mao for Literature and 30g
Sell Alphabet to Izzy for 30g

Kyoto & Surf n Turf. Remove scientists and switch from markets to temples.
Tokyo switch from catapult to workboat
Cordoba switch library to granary and start working the clams
Seville & Barce switch from courthouse to granary

Dow on Izzy. Send cat and escort towards Toledo capturing worker on the way. Send remainder of S stack towards Santiago with some barb defenders. Send first wave of 8 units towards Madrid.

Check the civics screen and using Caste System as a surrogate for Bureaucracy determine that each civic switch will result in one turn of revolution.

Turn 1 680AD

Toledo has 1 axe and 4 archers.

Turn 2 695AD

Cat advances next to Toledo.
Rice connected.
Rush Hindu temple in Kyoto for 3 unhappy faces.
Revolt to Organised Religion.
Rush workboat in Toyoto the place was stagnant
Rush granary in Osaka so surplus can go into Missionary

Turn 3 - 710AD

One of the archers leaves Toledo giving our cat an easy promo to 5/5 at 96%!
The Madrid copper is not hooked up.
Start granaries in Kyoto and Tokyo

Turn 4 - 710 AD???

KK requests we cancel deals with MM and of course we say yes.
Cats arrive at Madrid. Second wave stack crosses the border at Barce.
Give Toledo cat barrage I & 2 and return to forest. Izzy has popped another archer in toledo (down to size 4 only one to go).
Employ priest at Kyoto

Turn 5 - 725AD

Santiago now has 4 archers. Another leaves Toledo headed towards our iron hill.

Turn 6 - 740AD

Jigoro successfully defends our iron.

Have a minor disaster at santiago and lose a sword and an axe against the odds. Get 115 gold. Press the wrong button and don't raze the city. Sorry!. editNo problem we can fix this just leave the city undefended so the barbarians can capture it.

Turn 7 - 755AD Izzy galley with archer settler spotted near Barce.

Turn 8? - 770AD

Hatty cancels OB
Osaka Missionary>Misionary
Madrid defenses now 0%. All units in place to assault next turn. Wait overnight to rest so I make no mistake and as I need to count turns.

Sweetacshon · Sep 8, 2006

Solid use of the whip *applause*
It's a pity about santiago, the troops and the city... will you have enough to take Toledo?

Did you find out what Izzy's worker was up to? Also, if she wants to build us another city down south, good for her.

Perugia · Sep 8, 2006

Pre-turn - 665 AD
Sell Compass to Mao for Literature and 30g
Sell Alphabet to Izzy for 30g

Kyoto & Surf n Turf. Remove scientists and switch from markets to temples.
Tokyo switched from catapult to workboat
Cordoba switch library to granary and start working the clams
Seville & Barce switch from courthouse to granary

Dow on Izzy. Send cat and escort towards Toledo capturing worker on the way. Send remainder of S stack towards Santiago with some barb defenders. Send first wave of 8 units towards Madrid.

Check the civics screen and using Caste System as a surrogate for Bureaucracy determine that each civic switch will result in one turn of revolution.

Turn 1 - 680AD
Cat advances next to Toledo. Izzy has 1 axe and 4 archers there.

Rice connected.
Rush Hindu temple in Kyoto for 3 unhappy faces.
Revolt to Organised Religion.
Rush workboat in Toyoto the place was stagnant
Rush granary in Osaka so surplus can go into Missionary

Turn 2 - 695AD
One of the archers leaves Toledo giving our cat an easy promo to 5/5 at 96%!
The Madrid copper is not hooked up.
Start granaries in Kyoto and Tokyo

Turn 3 - 710AD
KK requests we cancel deals with MM and of course we say yes.
Cats arrive at Madrid. Second wave stack crosses the border at Barce.
Give Toledo cat barrage I & 2 and return to forest. Izzy has popped another archer in toledo (down to size 4 only one to go).
Employ priest at Kyoto

Turn 4 - 725AD
Start bombarding
Santiago now has 4 archers. Another leaves Toledo headed towards our iron hill.

Turn 5 - 740AD
Jigoro successfully defends our iron.

Have a minor disaster at santiago and lose a sword and an axe against the odds. Get 115 gold. Press the wrong button and don't raze the city. Sorry!. editNo problem we can fix this just leave the city undefended so the barbarians can capture it.

Turn 6 - 755AD
Hatty cancels OB
Izzy galley with archer settler spotted near Barce.

Turn 7 - 770AD
Osaka Missionary>Misionary. Will grow to whipped happy limit in 2 so MM for more coin.
Madrid defenses now 0%. All units in place to assault next turn. Wait overnight to rest so I make no mistake and as I need to count turns.
Mao now has Music.

Turn 8 - 785AD
We parle with the Govenor of Madrid offering "safe passage to Santiago" and he leaves the city on an Eastbound galley with two archers. The rest of the Spanish troops will fight to the death.

Battle of Madrid (Slaughter more like)

Our 2 cats inflict 12 counts of collateral damage.
As we won't need a large Military for a while after Izzy is gone I now send forward our cheapest/low XP units.
I want to guarantee the more expensive and higher XP ones survive with minimal damage.

1) In go the Folorne Hope consisting of 4 x 4/5 cover promoted suicide axes lead by a 4/5 cover promoted sword.
2) My plan to cull our army here and now fails as all but one of our axes survive and each one gains +3XP ending at 7/5!
3) I send in our best units against the last 4 defenders for the XP.
4) We capture Madrid, Pyramids, Oracle, Lighthouse, 100g, crab, fish and a worker. The Izzy galley might pillage the fish. Start a granary.
5) It's all over in a big anti-climax for the pathetically small loss of 2 cat's and 1 axe.
6) A stack of 5 used units turn round and head back south.

Elsewhere
The revolution has begun!
Re-employ 3 scientists at Kyoto and Surf n Turf
Santiago starts galley
Barcelona can now work Clam

Turn 9 - 800AD
We adopt representation and Kyoto and Surf n Turf are no longer unhappy.
First barb galley shows up heading N towards Santiago
Rush granary in Barcelona as it now has +6 surplus food and will soon grow back
Move temple in Osaka down queue as it's no longer so urgent due to representation happioness. Start monastery instead (there's also a missionary in the queue as Seville is still Pagan).

Turn 10 - 815AD
Izzy sends another archer from Toledo headed towards our iron hill Toledo defense down to 7%
HC & MM make peace.
The barb galley has disappeared for the moment but we have 2 galleys under construction just in case.
Whip granary in Cordoba for 1 citizen which was not doing much on a grass forest and the pop will grow back to 4 next turn anyhow.

Summary
There's a spanish archer about to enter Japan but our sucessful units from Santiago are now healed up in Osaka and can deal with it before it can pillage anything. These guys can then capture Toledo.

CS due in 4 at 100% with suffient funds at -66gpt. This will improve when the units midway between Madrid and Barce move inside our cultural border.
With the latest additions we now have 5 workers which is a lot better then before. The newest is roading near Madrid in anticipation of the borders expanding.

We need to decide the optimum order to improve the copper, deer, sheep, rice and horses at madrid. I think the mine is fastest (only 6 turns) then pasture (8 turns) then farm (10 turns) but can't remember how long a Camp takes. We must remember not to chop the deer forest as the camp does not destroy it and we get +1 hammers from the forest and the +3 deer food. The horse should be last as it's only 5 power points compared to 6 for the other tiles AFAIR and unless we have Guilds (Knights). After all that we farm the grass. In amongst all this we can work out if it's best to chop the Forest/Grassland 1S (most likely 54h towards granary or forge) or just work it to get hammers to a multiple of 8 (10 under OR).

With our cities growing rapidly I'm inclined to try to avoid trimming our army at this stage and just get all the main units promoted up to 10/10 using the barb training ground to the south. If a few are killed by barbs and Spain along the way it won't matter.

Seville still needs conversion and there's a Missionary part built in Osaka to do this.

The spanish worker was roading down the coast from Santiago but retreated as soon as our army showed up. It is now under our control near Tokyo an managed a forest chop for us. I have left Santiago unguarded for the barbs to takebut Izzy might retake it with the 2 archers on board ship so either way we get another chance to raze.

We may have enough in Osaka to reinforce the bombarding stack and take Toledo especially as we don't really care about casualties right now. If not we have loads of units streaming south from Madrid.

The world map is developing very nicely our galley reports that there are only 13 or so tiles from our continent to Hatty so as soon as we get CS we should begin the Optics beeline. The galley might now be trapped by Egypt's culture. The workboat is still getting closer to our other coast but the map may be fixed so that Astronomy is needed to win.

Feudalism + Metal Casting are on offer but we don't have anything to trade for them. The question is do we trade away CS for say Feudalism + Metal Casting so we can start researching Machinery right away (well as soon as the treasury is up to it).

We have to decide right away if we are to continue employing specialists even if the science rate is set to 0%. Otherwise we just dump the specialists in Kyoto and Surf n Turf to grow the next generation of unhappy citizens destined for the whip.

BLubmuz · Sep 8, 2006

Good TS, Perugia :goodjob:

You left me also some fun!!!

My plan:
- Capture Toledo
- let Santiago undefended, hoping for barbs
- Barb city in south: capture > raze or keep it?
- Do we'll train some settler to fill our land? I think so, then we'll have to decide the positions
- Train 2 galleys to avoid our seafood is pillaged (mandatory, IMO)
- Revolt to B. right after CS?
- Have I to kill some unit? (I will NOT, they can defend our new cities)

Don't forget that in representation every spec. gives +3 science.

Waiting for your answers, i'll open the save and eventually edit this with other questions.
I think i'll play tomorrow night.

first edit
I completely forget the research ... suggestions? perhaps MC?

Second edit (after Perugia answers)
- I've opened the save, war is far to be finished, unless our troops arrive from Madrid to Toledo.
I've seen a lot of units to be promoted, I'll try to choose the best ones, given the situation.
- I'll let the build queues "as is"
- The galley near Egypt will be disbanded ... pity, we'll need another one in the area
- I'm a bit worried about the galley/archer/settler, perhaps we'll have to destroy another city
- Aryan: I suppose my TS will be completed before we can do something, if it only was 1N would be nice. I propose to raze it, unless there's some hidden resource and build a new city 1N.

Perugia · Sep 8, 2006

Good TS, Perugia :goodjob:

Thanks
You left me also some fun!!!

My plan:
- Capture Toledo Yes
- let Santiago undefended, hoping for barbs Yes or Izzy
- Barb city in south: capture > raze or keep it? Leave alone until our workers get idle and capture later if good spot otherwise raze anytime. Concentrate on building current cities up.
- Do we'll train some settler to fill our land? I think so, then we'll have to decide the positions. Not at the moment we can't afford the upkeep use as a barb training ground.
- Train 2 galleys to avoid our seafood is pillaged (mandatory, IMO) Yes
- Revolt to B. right after CS? Yes. Please let us know which tech next even at 0% since may still have specialists
- Have I to kill some unit? (I will NOT, they can defend our new cities) No, you are right so keep them just grow the cities and the problem will go away. You might want to disband the galley near Egypt as we no longer have OB with Hatty.

Don't forget that in representation every spec. gives +3 science. Yes, but we want to work all bonus resources as well and should grow our cities to their happy limits first then switch to specialists as cities mature.

Representation also gives us +2 happy in 5 largest cities - so lets build large cities.

I don't think you will be running many specialists in your turnset (except maybe Kyoto and Surf n Turf). Even those 2 cities need to keep growing so they can 1) whip unhappiness to convert food to hammers and 2) remain as 2 of the 5 largest cities. IMO this is essential as they lack state religion and happy resources like gems & sugar so really need the Representation happy faces.

At some stage I'd like us to build another galley at Surf n Turf so Kyoto and Surf n Turf can exchange missionaries so they can have 2 temples each for extra priests.

first edit
I completely forget the research ... suggestions? perhaps MC? Yes definitely. So we can build forges as soon as granaries are complete. The key question is sell B. to the AI to get it in 4 turns or hang on to our B. monopoly and self-research. If I were playing solo I would sell B. immediately as the AI will get it soon as they already have CoL and Feudalism and favour civic techs. In fact they might complete in the next 4 turns anyway with the feudalism bonus.

Second edit (after Perugia answers)- I've opened the save, war is far to be finished, unless our troops arrive from Madrid to Toledo. You want to cross to the other side of the river before attacking Toledo.I've seen a lot of units to be promoted, I'll try to choose the best ones, given the situation. Indeed. I deliberately did not promote units that were not needed or gained promos at Madrid. Have fun with these.
- I'll let the build queues "as is" After MC I would, personally, think changing to forge anywhere that has a granary. Forge is really good when pop-rushing.
- The galley near Egypt will be disbanded ... pity, we'll need another one in the area
- I'm a bit worried about the galley/archer/settler, perhaps we'll have to destroy another city I don't see this as a big deal as we have the military to do this. If you can, follow them, kil the archer when they land and capture the settler so we get another worker. We really need more workers! This will mean moving early as the galley has 2 moves and our axes only one. Maybe one of the axes now at Toledo can be spared now for this but to be sure more units will be needed.
- Aryan: I suppose my TS will be completed before we can do something, if it only was 1N would be nice. I propose to raze it, unless there's some hidden resource and build a new city 1N. Sounds OK if 1N has production. Except for a SW coast production spot to build a navy (neither Barcelona or Cordoba are up to this role) I don't think we need any more cities right now as these will be bad for the economy.

As we don't need many more land units in htemedium term and need naval techs, here is a suggested city specialism plan to crank up science.

SW coast spot - Production (W coast). Build target galley > caravel > galleon
Toledo - Gold. Build target Market > Bank (also site of Church of the Nativity)
Osaka - Commerce/Production powerhouse.
Cordoba - Science. Build target library > university/observatory
Barcelona - Science. Build target library > university/observatory
Madrid - GP farm (+ emergency production N coast). Build target National Epic.
Seville - Science. Build target library > university/observatory
Tokyo - Production (E coast). Build target galley > caravel > galleon

All cities need granary + forge then their specialist buildings. The science & gold cities need cottages and any needed farms. The production cities need farms for whipping. The production and gold cities might want to employ some priests.

As it is the most developed and has B. bonus, Osaka should build any land units we need such a missionaries, workers & the setter. It has a mix of improvements.

With Bureaucracy due in 4 we need to devise an irrigation plan to get fresh water to Cordoba, Seville and Tokyo as well as our rice farms at Osaka and Barcelona. We need a plan so we don't put cottages in the way. I'll try to devise a draft in the next 24hr.

Spoiler Upload Log :

BLubmuz · Sep 9, 2006

@Perugia
I like this way to communicate, it's almost a chat, I use it at work.

So you suggest (please confirm) to trade CS for MC, since AI can get it faster after Feudalism?
I'm oriented to this, but not completely sure. Perhaps if we research MC we can trade CS + some money for Machinery, unless we trade CS to an AI hated by the others for MC, then to another for machinery or other techs.

About new cities:
I partially disagree with you, because it's correct they worsen our maintenance costs, but if we want those cities developed to produce expensive late-game units we need to settle ASAP, in order to build structures and then military. It would be nice to upgrade our high HP units, but it's very expensive to do for all.
Think those cities as a long-term investment.

Perugia · Sep 9, 2006

OK comunicating by editing in place as requested.

BLubmuz said:
@Perugia
I like this way to communicate, it's almost a chat, I use it at work.

So you suggest (please confirm) to trade CS for MC, since AI can get it faster after Feudalism?
I'm oriented to this, but not completely sure. Perhaps if we research MC we can trade CS + some money for Machinery, unless we trade CS to an AI hated by the others for MC, then to another for machinery or other techs. Both ways sound OK to me, I don't have enough Civ4 experience to know which is better for sure from the pure research aspect. The thing is I really want is to see forges in our cities ASAP in order to build structures.

It might be worth looking at the improvements and workers of the AI with MC to see if they have built/are building any windmills or watermills yet (dunno if our scouting boats are in the right place to do this).

About new cities:
I partially disagree with you, because it's correct they worsen our maintenance costs, but if we want those cities developed to produce expensive late-game units we need to settle ASAP, in order to build structures and then military. It would be nice to upgrade our high HP units, but it's very expensive to do for all.
Think those cities as a long-term investment. I am not entirely convinced by your argument since the cities are on the wrong continent. I think there is a middle ground and we can settle powerhouse sites with access to multiple bonus resources (and any happy resources we don't already have). There is no point in settling mediocre sites since these will worsen maintenance at the time we want max research to get off our islands.

Don't forget in the late game we can capture cities to build our expensive late game units on the continent where the combat takes place. Those cities will come with structures built by the AI and if anything is missing we can cash rush due to Universal Suffrage.

We wil probably end up raising small underdeveloped AI cities so I can't see the point of having any of our own even if slightly better but on the wrong continent.

Anything we do settle needs to be much better than Santiago IMHO (3-4 bonueses).

We are getting ahead of ourselves here.

Good luck with the MC / Machinery thing.

Perugia · Sep 9, 2006

Here is a suggested farm plan as promised.

Key

F = Strategic farm to get fresh water to cities that lack it.

f = Local farm for city use as required.

? = These are required to irrigate the rice at Osaka. I don't know if the tile 1N of the sheep will pass water diagonally to the rice or the long route from Toledo is needed.

Note that the rice at Barcelona can remain irrigated if the "f" at Barcelona are not farmed by irrigating 2 tiles outside fat cross.

What do you think?

BLubmuz · Sep 9, 2006

One note before my report:
Why someone has pillaged the roads near Madrid?
I can't see the reason, in addition we'll pay more for units outside our borders, and spend turns to rebuild.

IT-815
check things, only Mao is pleased, but lot of AI wanna trade
tried to move a chinese galley near Kyoto, after that i remember this is NOT GotM10

killed galley near Egypt :mad:

IBT - Kano defeated - 2 archers landed in the jungle near Barce

01-830
The first stack driving S has 2 axes with cover, promoted to C2, attack archers, both won.
IBT - barb galley in sight S of Santiago

02-845
moving troops

03-860
Whip granary in Kyoto and Temple in S&T

04-875
CS - revolution - research to 0, 71g in bank
traded CS for Feudalism+10g to Bismark, and to KK for MC+90g
since KK is now pleased, I asked 4gpt, and he was glad to help

05-890
Madrid unhappy, whip granary
started forges in most of our cities, wait for missionary in Osaka
Mao hasn't Machinery

06-905
moving troops
IBT - spanish archer in forest NW iron, already defended by Aikido

07-920
CS+220 to Mao for Machinery
since he's pleased too, asked Bismark 4gpt, and he too was glad to help

troops cross the river, stack in position
Aikido defended and won!!!

before victory
View attachment 137907

View attachment 137908

08-935
Tried to ask Izzy Theology for peace, she refused, so:
Toledo conquered with NO losses (dunno if be glad or else :crazyeye:

)
Spain is no more
Our missionary spreaded C. in Seville
whip CH in Barce

09-950
first plantation completed
now Break-even is around 40%
now we are better than Mao in score
Bismark has Optics (monopoly), but he won't trade (anyway we have nothing to sale)
C. auto-spreaded in Santiago

10-980
some troops S, we need to scout and to raze Aryan (unless there is some hidden resource)

11-980
whipped galley in Santiago,
please keep it on the fish until the galley in Seville is ready,
then use them stacked to scout the southern coast.
our sword just passes through a barb archer

the revealed map
View attachment 137909

Spoiler :

and the save
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Fifth_Element_SG002_AD0980_01.Civ4SavedGame

from now on, we have to focus on money and growth
and NEVER forget barbs.
The chinese galley near Kyoto makes me think how weak are our island-cities.
I started research paper in the hope to have a monopoly tech to use for good trades, and to avoid to lost turns researching techs I was going to trade, ... hope you agree (i'm not sure i do)

It's up to you Doom Train, good luck

Doom Train · Sep 10, 2006

Got the save...

Good turnset Blumbuz.

I ll post a checklist for myself after examining it tonight...

@Perugia
Since wartime is over i ll play 15 turns right?

Perugia · Sep 10, 2006

Great turnset BLumbuz. The trading went real well. Overall we bought Machinery + Metal Casting + Feudalism for CS + 120g :clap:

We now have the ability to build our wonderful UU but at the moment can't use them.

I think we should self-research Optics as we just do not know how long it will take for another AI to break Bismarck's monopoly and we need caravels immediately to:

1) Overtake Bismark before he steals our circumnavigation bonus
2) Transport missionaries
3) See if there are some islands in the fog the allow a culture bridge. This would a) allow resource trading, b) make us less reliant on Astronomy and c) enable us to build macemen in Kyoto and Surf n Turf using OB agreements.

Anyway back to the medium term we should aim to have a missionary ready in port the turn the caravels complete. The missionaries will be very useful as scouts, spies and to exchange religions so we can have Christianity in Kyoto and Hinduism & Confucianism in New Japan. These will each allow Madrid to run another Priest Specialist.

(the following section is heavily edited) BTW after Optics, because we know CS and CoL,we cannot use a Great Scientist to research Astronomy because Philosophy and Paper take prescedence so we will have to do it the hard way.

Spoiler Partial Great Scientist techs :

The only problem with starting Astronomy right away is the large hole left in the middle and right hand side of the tech chart with Engineering, Paper, Guilds, Banking and subsequent very useful even essential techs.

Therefore as soon as we know when our next GS will be born we should probably either trade for or research paper so we can use a GS to rush Education and hopefully we can either trade this for printing press or use a second GS to rush printing press.

If there are no other land masses out there for the AI to escape to we can probably sell Astronomy around quite early for things like economics or liberalism. So our caravels had better find this out ASAP so we can work out research/trade strategy.

More strategic thinking to follow as we work on optics.

Why someone has pillaged the roads near Madrid?
I can't see the reason, in addition we'll pay more for units outside our borders, and spend turns to rebuild.

AFAIR they did it to guarantee in 10 turns peace Izzy could not rebuild the copper mine and connect it to the south. At least it gave our worker sonething to do while Madrid was in resistance.

since KK is now pleased, I asked 4gpt, and he was glad to help
since he's pleased too, asked Bismark 4gpt, and he too was glad to help

That is a tactic I must learn to use myself. Why bother selling our sea resources when we can get gold like this!

edit
I see you added the screenies. Ooops! I forgot about Madrids 1st culture expansion of only 9 tiles meaning the copper is still outside our borders - anyhow the worker is on the case.

@Doom Train. Yes 15 turns. Make em good.

On the tactical side, don't forget once we have forges Pop-rushing becomes very effective due to a programming error with forge.

With forge -
when the city needs 45-56 hammers to complete its build a pop rush costs 1 pop and provides 88 hammers (about 32 bonus hammers)
when the city needs 89-110 hammers to complete its build a pop rush costs 2 pop and provides 132 hammers (about 20 bonus hammers)
You will find the above holds for Kyoto and Surf N Turf as they do not have the state religion.

I am not sure what happens when the forge bonus combines with other bonuses. I will carry out some tests on Organised Religion but probably will not have results in your turnset.

Some of us might consider this tactic an exploit but it is allowed by the SGOTM rules and the top teams use it to win so we have no real choice.

A reminder

I am sure all the team know this but for the benefit of the newbie lurkers out there and to re-iterate what I wrote in my turnlog about the battel of Madrid. Do not chop the forest on the deer as the food bonus from building a deer camp stacks with the forest bonus

Merum · Sep 10, 2006

We can now build Samurai. This advantage won't last long. Because of this, I think we should beeline for astronomy, so that we can establish a beach head on the funny shaped continent. Thus, I agree with the optics research now. We have enough to get it in 8 at 90% research. We don't have enough for 100% research yet. On the other hand, If we get paper and butter up Bismark a bit, we might be able to get it in trade. Such a dilemma.

We need to seize our advantage while we can. If we can carve out a couple of cities for ourselves now, it will save us a lot of grief later in the gunpowder age.

If we can pick up buddhism, converting to it will help us out a lot diplomatically.

I think we should bite the bullet now and get some cities going on our continent. We definitely want to stake out the resources, before somebody else gets a settler across. Also, it's better to take the maintenance hit now and get the city going, so that when it's time to go to war, we'll have more production centers. Aryan is probably a keeper, as well.

We need to spam cottages. We are cash poor and food rich. However, food doesn't buy us research.

On an unrelated note, I've accepted a new job. This job will have me living predominantly in China (6 weeks out of 9). However, I will be getting new computers, including a laptop that will allow me to play Civ4. I'll try to keep the disruption to my turns to a minimum during this transition time. On the upside, our team will be further globalized.

Doom Train · Sep 10, 2006

Completed my turnset. I was gonna post a checklist but realised that there is nothing much to worth preparing one. Played 10 turns, left in critical positon where barb city s defences lowered by cat(i think its a good city).

Turn 0: Switched research to optics.

Turn 1: Santiago completed galley. A worker sent to hook up rice near madrid. 1 Swo 1 arch barb spotted in forest S of Osaka.

Turn 2: axeman defated swo bar at foresthill. Order restored in Toledo.

Turn 3: Barb city looks nice. 4 archers 1 worker. Improvements are 2 farms, 1 pasture on sheep and a hamlet. It also has lighthouse. I m gonna bombard it...

Turn 4: Killed 1 barb archer who came out from barb city.

Turn 5: Library completed in cordoba started forge. Forge completed in Osaka started C.Temple. A worker started to irragate NW of Osaka(other side of the river) while other two will hook up plantation W of Barca.

Turn 6: Mansa has optics...

turn 7: KK wants us to fight Mansa (refused) . He declared peace with him in this turn...

Turn 8: Borders of Madrid expanded it covers copper now sent a worker to mine it. Galley completed in Seville started Granary.

Turn 9: We have 3 unhappy citizen in Kyoto so i whipped Forge 1 left, next player should not forget to MM this city after next growth. Everybody execpt Hapsephut knows Optics. Also I mistakenly defended Santiago from an archer sorry

Turn 10: C.temple completed in Osaka. I ve lowered barb city defences we can capture or raze it or leave it alone its up to next player. We will get Optics in next turn.

I stopped here because critical decisions about research and barb city has to be made. I ve finished the turnset because i ll not be able to play next 2 days...

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Fifth_Element_SG002_AD1106_01.Civ4SavedGame

BrainS is next...

@Merum
Good luck with your new job

Sweetacshon · Sep 10, 2006

Merum, congrats on the job!!
Perugia and Blubmuz, nice TSs!
It's amazing how much can happen in a weekend.

I will have a look at the save for the city/ farm plans later, but it all sounds ok. As for new cities, this is always the dilemma, isn't it? Well we do need a solid production city on the west coast, and another cottage spammed or two is better sooner rather than later.. but again, I'll have to look closer.

We finally have our UU, but we can't use it! Bugger. Are we going to be able to use it at all? We might finally get our naval transport teched and built, only to find gunpowder being aimed at us when we turn up. That is very annoying! All we can do is get our caravels out for a look and hope for a land bridge, I suppose. It's a pity, I was looking forward to the "rolling" upgrade for our army, financed by pillage.

Two points while I'm still speaking generally:
1. If someone, say MM, decides to attack us, how do we propose to defend Kyoto and S&T, or are we just looking to avoid that diplomatically?
2. A bit early, perhaps, but now that we have some idea of the shape of the world, both geographically and politically, how do we propose to win this conquest?

EDIT:
And DT, posting at the same time as me, well played.

BrianS · Sep 10, 2006

I've been traveling for a couple days, and I come back to see us in good position. Great turnset Blubmuz.

I agree with the plan outlined above and in particular the need to get astronomy asap. That's really all we need to start taking some cities on the main continent. We will want to plan so that we have an army of Samurai and catapults ready to go as soon as astronomy comes in so that we can then devote ourselves to building galleons.

Wow - DT posted while I was still digesting Blubmuz's turnset. I'll take a look this evening and post my thoughts.

BrianS · Sep 11, 2006

I spent a little time thinking about research path. Optics is due in 1, and then we can pursue one of the following (and possibly other) strategies:

Liberalism gambit
----Philosophy (11)->Paper(8)->Education(31)->Liberalism(24)
I think we quickly eliminate the liberalism gambit, as Bismarck, Mao, HC and MM already have philosophy. Even if we move entirely to a science economy, I doubt we get liberalism first. Plus, we lose a lot of good warring time.

Study first, then war
----Paper(8)->Education(31)->Astronomy (35)
This is a pretty good option, as it gets us some trading fodder and good science. But -- ITS BORING. It delays war by nearly 40 turns. Will our samurai still be good then?

Trade for techs
----Establish a trading strategy that lets us trade for more techs than we research.
Start with paper, then trade it. Then what????
How long before we get astronomy? When can we war?

War Now, then science
----Astronomy (35)->Paper(8)-> Education (31)
This is my choice. It gets us to war quickest, and then emphasizes science. There aren't that many additional military techs immediately available to us, so let's go to war ASAP and then spend some time gearing up research for the next war.

Astronomy and Paper should be pretty good for trade, we'll just want to be very careful about trading them.

SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

Prince

In the foetal position

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

Prince

In the foetal position

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

Prince

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

Warlord

Prince

Permanent Jet Lag

Warlord

In the foetal position

Prince

Prince

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