SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

Merum · Sep 17, 2006

Thanks for the link, Perugia.

If you can MM liberalism down to 6 turns, try it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, and it could be a huge boost for us if it works.

I think we should hold on to Astronomy until we are at a tipping point in our war with HC and we have Bismarck converted. Then, trade it around.

By the way, has anybody tried shopping our world map around? I bet we could get some gold for it.

Doom Train · Sep 17, 2006

Nice plan especially for Liberalism i hope hatty will not get it before us.

I found some posts about religion
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=173651&highlight=Religion+conversion

Edit: pointed out elsewhere, you can gift your missionary to the AI, and let the AI try to convert its own city for you

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=147656&highlight=Religion+conversion

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=142275&highlight=Religion+conversion
Owner of this post is a guy from Smurkz team( Its written under his nick)

It's actually pretty easy converting another civ. The only bad thing is it takes a while. What I do is start producing missionaries as much as possible and send them to the cities of one specific AI. Once I have at least 75% of that civs cities with my religions influence I'll start checking to see how much it'll cost for him/her to convert. If you can get your religions influence into all his cities it makes things a lot easier.

The thing is for every city that civ has with your religious influence the more unlikely the AI will switch back out. If 90% of its cities have your religion he/she tends to stick with that religion for the rest of the game.

Once I have one AI converted I than do the same tactic on another AI. The biggest problem I've found is if you try and send missionaries out to multiple AI's rather than focusing on a single one.

Definitely have a shrine though. Since you are mass spreading your religion you might as well make some money off of it.

Perugia · Sep 18, 2006

Thanks for the replies Merum and Doom Train. I'm editing your input into the plan.

I think we should hold on to Astronomy until we are at a tipping point in our war with HC and we have Bismarck converted. Then, trade it around.

I like that timing a lot we will be in good shape to take advantage of any DoWs we can get for Astonomy. I'll maintain the monopoly in my turnset and go all out for Liberalism. Selling our WM sounds good to fund deficit spending.

@Thanks for the religious info Doom Train. That really helps. I like the idea of gifting missionaries to the AI you wish to convert that's a great tactic as it speeds up the conversion since you effectively can have more than 3 missionaries in play and saves a few gold in support costs. It also maximises the chances of success (minimum 40% success rate in own cities, 20% otherwise) The thread also suggests they might even spread it to a civ you do not have OB with

.

You are right about us building the shrine so we can make money off spreading our religion. Apart from MM, I intend to work towards increasing the chances we can get a Great Prophet in Madrid by beginning the task of converting it to Hinduism/Taoism and any other religions that have spread to our cities. It can then build multiple temples and run multiple priests for more Great Prophet points. I just remembered a non-christian religion spread to Santiago so I'll get it to generate one of these missionaries.

BLubmuz · Sep 19, 2006

I catch up our thread after few days.

What about upgrade our well promoted axes? do we have enough money?

If it wasn't clear from my previous posts, I agree to DoW on HC

I will edit this with more, takin' knowledge from the saves and thread.

Perugia · Sep 19, 2006

I'm part way through and will complete tonight.

For interest sake the city 1 site grew a forest sometime after the screenie #275. Either that or I founded in the wrong spot!

I just had a major panic as HC adopted

Spoiler Free :

We are 3 turns from Liberalism. I propose to take Communism as the free tech and switch to State Property immediately after which we should get our workers to build workshops and watermills in the production cities.

KK is now running Theocracy so we can't convert him so I diverted the missionary there overland to cross the inner sea to Germany. I do hope Bismarck is not Theocratic as well!

@BLumbuz. I agree we should upgrade some well promoted axes because we are still short of good developed production sites. Unfortunately the treasury will be empty after we learn Liberalism so the time to do the upgrades will be when our galleons are ready to sail but there are not enough cats/samurai to fill them up. With this in mind I'll mostly build catapults - these are real easy to whip in forges for 45-56 hammers left.

We are desparately short of workers so I'll try to direct any chopping and overflow there.

Gaul is a pain with it's 2 longbows on a hill. There is a chance we will lose some units taking it. As we are desparately short of workers I'm not sure it will really help. At the least we should wait until liberalism is in and time the revolt in with our anarchy. Thoughts anyone?

Merum · Sep 19, 2006

Let Gaul sit for now. Those barbs aren't going anywhere, and we really need to get to Huayna, before we find ourselves up against rifles.

Perugia · Sep 19, 2006

Merum said:
Let Gaul sit for now. Those barbs aren't going there, and we really need to get to Huayna, before we find ourselves up against rifles.

Right that's what I hoped someone would say - I'll get those samurai and the cat over to the embarkation point. I play again in 1 hour.

Oh - hope the new job is going alright.

Merum · Sep 19, 2006

Thanks for mentioning it, Perugia. I haven't started yet, I'm taking a week off to square some things away around here since I'm going to be away so much and pretty much just generally to unwind and be a game-playing bum. :mischief:

All that ends next week, as I have to fly up to PA and get started.

Sweetacshon · Sep 19, 2006

Arrgghh... liberalism is 3 turns away? This is what I calll the disappointment zone. I hope we get it!

By the time we have the galleons ready, we should have enough cats to make a start on HC - and if we run a surplus, coupled with the pillage cash, we should be able to upgrade some of those 20 odd axes to steamroll him. It might be worth discussing which cities we want to keep... oh yeah.. that's right.. we don't seem to be able to raze. Oh well.

I agree with letting Gaul go for now. It reminds me of Asterix

Merum, I may have missed it, but what is the new job?

Perugia · Sep 20, 2006

I am very sorry but it is going very slow right now. The good news is we snagged Liberalism. The bad news is we could not take Communism as the free tech so took Nationalism instead.

I should have checked earlier but Communism realistically never was on the cards as we don't even know Printing Press or Scientific Method. If we had waited for those we would have lost the race. Still I think Liberalism stands as a good move in its own right as we now have a lot more to trade with.

We are currently working on Printing Press at 0% science while replenishing the treasury. There is a trickle of beakers from Representation - it was a toss up between PP and Mil Trad. But Bismarck already has that so we might get it in trade as a second AI learns it.

@Sweetacshon. Each turn at 0% sci snags just under 200g which is enough for one upgrade or 2 turns of research. So there should be no trouble filling each galley as it departs with new build catapults and upgraded units.

BTW I am collecting our medics by the galleons so they are ready to be deployed as required. I also have 1 pike available in case the odd knight shows up. I'll send a caravel to scout the landing spot and post a SS before finishing.

Some more bad news is that none of the Buddhists are willing to trade tech with us at all and worse still Bismarck does not like us enough to convert. I think we have no option than to adopt Free Religion having first rushed any missionaries being built outside monasteries.

My immediate intention was that without the -ve religion modifiers Bismarck could be persuaded to convert and/or go to war. Before proceeding I wanted to wait overnight and take a fresh look at the save....

... I am now pretty much decided that a switch to Free Religion and 2 turns of anarchy is now essential to turn the diplomatic scene on its head. We should then be able to generate some benefit from selling Liberalism and Nationalism.

OK we lose the OR +25% modifier on building construction but that's going to be less important as most of our cities switch to unit production in the military build up. We will also gain 10% science immediately to compensate.

@Merum enjoy your break, sounds like you're gonna need to recharge the old batteries!

Merum · Sep 20, 2006

I think free reiligion is a good idea, as it will get us out from under the cloud of hatred we're experiencing as the only christians. However, it does kind of cheese the whole "convert Bismarck" thing... It's probably the better way to go. We could always go back to christianity if it becomes worth our while at some point.

@Sweetacshon: I've taken a new job as the (exact title tbd, either Director or VP) of engineering/mfg of a company that is based in America, but mostly does its work in China. Basically, I'll be in charge of all their operations in Asia. As such, I'll be living in China 6 weeks out of every 9. That means I'll be in your hemisphere most of the time, so watch out, mate! If you ever get to Hong Kong, beer's on me. If I ever get to your Island, beer's on you! :beer:

@Perugia: Your comment about recharging the old batteries is funnier than you realize, since one of my new primary products is the best lithium battery in the world.

Perugia · Sep 20, 2006

The save is uploaded.

Spoiler :

Bismarck is at war with MM and we are gearing up to join him

We have OB with HC and have landed

8 samurai
3 catapults
1 pike
3 medics

There are loads more units to follow.

PP is due in 2. I suggest Mil Trad is next.

Osaka is poping a cat per turn with overflow available to other tasks.

More info to follow.

Merum · Sep 20, 2006

Not sure how we ended up OB with HC and pending war with MM, but by all that is holy, Go for Djenne! It's a double holy city, both of which religions have been well spread, and I'm sure Mansa has built the shrines.

If we walk away with nothing else from this, we should get that city at all costs. Until we get it, we should have no other objective for our troops.

Printing press will make nice trade bait with some of our erm... friends.

Perugia · Sep 21, 2006

Merum - here's how. BTW Djenne has both Shrines and Bismark is already at war with MM but Djenne is on the opposite side to Bismarck and close to the HC border from where we can launch a megastack!

I agree Djenne should be our sole focus to take and hold.

Turn 0 1394AD
Sell WM to B and Hatty for 160g, no one else was interested.
Squeeze +1gpt from Hatty on the clam deal.
MM for Liberalism due in 6 @ -88gpt after creating vast numbers of scientists at the cost of restricted growth.
Barcelona: Observatory rushable (see turn 6) but pop loss will cost beakers switch to University until Liberalism in.
Madrid: Galleon rushable (see turn 5) but we are short of catapults so switch to NE

Turn 1 1400AD
KK: Running Theocracy – there’s a missionary on a caravel there that will be redeployed elsewhere
Surf n Turf Harbor > Taoist missionary
Aryan: border expands to the fish– rush cheap Lighthouse
Satsuma: founded > granary

Turn 2 1406AD
Aryan: Lighthouse > WB
Toledo: Market > Christian missionary
Sending high XP swords to Santiago. These cost 155g each to upgrade vs 179 for axes so the swords will be done first.

Turn 3 1412AD
Barb galley S of Aryan
Convert Essen
Surf n Turf: rush Taoist missionary in 25% 45-56 zone
Kyoto: rush Hindu missionary in 25% 45-56 zone

Delay a worker chop at Edo with 2 turns left by roading the tile so Edo can convert to Christianity before the chop comes in for another 12 hammers from Organised Religion.

I found a worker mining a forested hill at Edo. This is not ideal as we won’t get the chop bonus until the mine has finished delaying it by 6 turns.

I also found 2 workers cottaging jungles at Barcelona. This is also not optimum as we don’t get the option to change orders after the jungle is cleared in case we have something better for the worker to do.

I always use either the clear jungles or chop forests orders where there are trees on the tile not mine/cottage/farm etc.

Turn 4 1418AD
Kyoto: Hindu missionary > barracks in 1 (37 base hammers + 150% = 92 hammers!)
Surf n Turf: Taoist missionary > barracks in 1 (36 base hammers + 150% = 90 hammers!)
Osaka: Christian Missionary > Observatory
Hinduism and Christianity spread to Edo.
KK: Renegotiate crab deal for +2gpt

Turn 5 1424AD
Kyoto: Barracks > catapult
Surf n Turf: barracks > galleon
Madrid: rush Galleon in 25% 45-56 zone
Edo: chop rush barracks
Hatty: Free market

Turn 6: 1430AD
Mao asks for Astronomy we say NO.
We learn Liberalism and take Nationalism as the free tech. Communism was never available. My mistake.
Turn off science for +177gpt and mass remove scientists except for a very select few
Edo: barracks > worker to collect chop overflow > granary
Barcelona: rush observatory in 25% 177-220 zone (-4 pop)
Kyoto: put catapult in queue (now in 25% 45-56 zone) > Christian missionary
Sell Liberalism to Mao for Guilds, 10g and his WM. Bismarck has MT. Start printing press.

Turn 7: 1436AD
Cordoba: galleon > barracks
Barcelona: observatory > university

We are out of trading partners so have no option but to turn diplomacy around by switching to Free Religion at least for a while. Prepare for this as follows:
Kyoto: rush Christian missionary
Toledo: rush Christian missionary
Seville: rush Market (now in 25% 133-165 zone)

The following cities will be left without any 25% bonus as they don’t have a forge but all cities get +10% science
Barcelona (not worth it)
Seville (not worth it)
Santiago
Toledo
Aryan
Edo
Satsuma

Turn 8: 1442AD
Mao Offers Banking + 10g for Astronomy – we politely refuse
Tokyo: Galleon > catapult
Madrid: Galleon > NE
Seville: Market > Grocer
Kyoto: Christian missionary > harbour
Toledo: Christian missionary > barracks

Revolution begins and immediately B is now pleased and willing to DoW on Hatty for Astronomy or MM for Liberalism.

Turn 9 1448AD
Hatty turns up to trade and we get 790 gold, Banking and her WM for Liberalism
B has Mil Trad, PP and Gunpower but his GA just ended.
Ask Bismarck to DoW on MM for Liberalism and get 110g and his WM to boot
Science rate is now returned to 100% and some more scientists employed

Turn 10 1454
B adopts Theocracy
Get OB with HC - we can now march overland and attack MM from the rear while Bismarck keeps him busy.
Sell sugar to HC for 6gpt
Sell Nationalsm to HC for 180g before it loses all value
Aryan: rush workboat

Turn 11 1460AD
HC wants to sell economics for astronomy. No deal.
Hatty wantys stone for pig – OK. We can cacel in 10 if we like
Osaka: Observatoryu > worker
Aryan: workboat > forge
Surf n Turf: rush galleon in 25% 111 zone

Turn 12 1466AD
Osaka: worker > catapult can now get good overflow from cat
HC complete Angkor wat
Kyoto: rush catapult in zone

Turn 13 1472AD
Osaka: Catapult > catapult
Tokyo: Catapult > catapult
Toledo: Barracks > catapult
Kyoto: Catapult > harbor

Shanghai is converted to Christian (I selected this from all Chinese cities as it is non-jew and non-hindu and we should soon control both those religions.

We also manage to squeeze +1gpt from Bismarck for clam

Turn 14 1478AD
HC wants Astronomy – no way
Osaka: Catapult > catapult (watch overflow\)
Cordoba: Barracks > catapult

Turn 15 1484AD
Osaka: catapult > samurai (to avoid overflow problems – the next player might want to change this to knight
Mao GA start

Conclusion

Printing press due in 2

In Incaland we have 8 Samurai, 3 Medics, 3 Catapults and 1 Pikeman. There are lots more on the way from Santiago. Soon we should widen the mix with a few crossbows, longbows and knights to make our Samarai less vulnerable to counterattack. Hopefully Bismarck should have dealt with any large numbers of spare Milaneseunits

We also have a galleon on the inner sea loaded with a missionary and a catapult near Mongolia and ready to land and march through Mongolia into Incaland. The catapult can join the troops mustering there and the missionary could convert one of the inland cities so we can spy on HC assuming the OB will not last for ever (caravels can spy on the coastal cities).

Along with this galleon, there are quite a few caravels headed into the inner sea to spy on the Milanese inner coast and protect our fishing boats and 2 cities. One more caravel is moving to the south coast to keep an eye on the Gao/ Walata area.

I think our first target should be the Hindu & Jewish holy places and shrines at Djenne.

After that we should hopefully capture Timbuktu & Kumbi Saleh on inner sea as well as Niani. Gao is on hills/tundra and Walata tundra so we can direct Bismarck’s attentions to those in that order. MM has also founded a new city just S of KK and W of Surf n Turf that is worth keeping for strategic reasons.

Madrid

Madrid has a 38% chance to produce a great prophet which can be used to build the shrine in Toledo. That is not likely so we have a Taoist missionary outside the city ready to convert it so it can start on a second temple in front of the NE. This temple should be hurried - The temple costs 120 so if we MM to put in 9 hammers or less on the first turn there will be 111 or more hammers remaining and it can be pop rushed for 2 pop giving 132 hammers back. Then we can run a second priest.

There is a Hindu missionary on a caravel headed to Madrid so it can build a third temple the same way. With 3 priests and the 2 wonders we will increase the chances of a Great Prophet to 80% (it can never be 100% due to the Pyramids). We need to be careful the AI does not employ any other specialists at Madrid when the city grows.

Osaka

Osaka will provide the majority of our land units and is capable of churning out catapults at one a turn and is literally overflowing with hammers due to its 175% bonus for military units (forge+bureaucracy+heroic epic) – just make sure we occasionally build an expensive unit to prevent the overflow exceeding the overflow limit (eg if building catapults any overflow above 90 is lost).

At one time I actually had to stop the city working the plains hill and gathered some more food from one of the hamlets instead. There is also a worker chopping quite distant forests to very good effect due to 175% bonus.

If we need any more workers (or settlers) build them in Osaka by switching in the overflow from military units so growth in our other cities is not halted.

Other

We need a workboat at the new city in the south. There is a galleon protecting Aryan and a caravel at Madrid. Apart from that we are very short of defenses at home but the AI does not yet know Astronomy.

There is a barb sword S of Santiago that one of our Samurai can eliminate.

Troops are mustering at Santiago. Up to date ones are in the city an ones to upgrade slightly further back up the road from Tokyo.

BLubmuz · Sep 21, 2006

@BrianS
why did you moved that hill 1W? ... it's not fair
probably i'm gettin' old, i have to check my memory or my eyesight, or both.

Got the save, think i'll play tomorrow, so we have time to check what to do:

1) I'd like to stop research to upgrade some unit
2) if we agree on (1), we can choose between a level 5 axe and a L.4 sword:
i suggest axe first
3) DoW on MM ASA our troops in HC territory reach his borders; if B. asks, we'll agree, no matter when.
4) Can i produce some knight? we need some fast unit, and the upgrade to cav is cheap
5) when we'll make peace with MM, let's try to ask for economics, in the meantime i agree to res. MT, and hope to trade GP

more will follow, when i'll better analyze the save and your posts

Perugia · Sep 21, 2006

BLumbuz said:
I'd like to stop research to upgrade some unit

That's fine but why not wait the 2 turns needed to complete printing press first which will give you extra gold from villages and towns and might get some gold from trading it around as well.

There are just about enough already upgraded units and catapults moving to Santiago to service our galleons for the 2 turns.

So I would prefer to keep science at 100% for 1 turn then reduce a bit so printing press completes on the second turn then set to 0% for the upgrades.

Some knights would be good if only to kill injured units that sucessfully attack our megastack another pike would be nice in case we encounter knights (Does MM have horses I didn't check?). Some archery units might be useful as well to give us a good mix - these could be upgrades of >10 XP archers.

You can pop rush a couple of units in the inner cities when they have 45-56 beakers left.

BrianS · Sep 21, 2006

Great turnset Perugia. We're set up very nicely.

I looked over the save and have a couple thoughts.

First, I think we should try to take Timbuktu (MM's capital) as well as Djenne. It will remove a significant amount of cultural pressure on Djenne. Plus, it will mean we are not landlocked, at least we can access S&T and Kyoto.

Second, what GP do we want next? With our current settings, a GP is due in Madrid in about 15 turns (44% chance of Eng, 38% Proph). GP is due in Kyoto in 30 turns (30% Proph, 42% Scien, 25% Eng). We are running a priest in Madrid and 2 scien/1eng in Kyoto. If we want to try for a scientist, we can have Kyoto pop a GP first by running 2 merchants there and discontinuing the priest in Madrid. This will get us a GP in Kyoto in 20 turns.

Also, if we decide we need help in the war, Mao is not in love with MM and might help out.

Blubmuz, it looks like you get to start the war! Good luck!

EDIT: Do we have enough defense in Kyoto and S&T? We might want another longbow or 2 there in case MM gets frisky.

BLubmuz · Sep 21, 2006

Perugia said:
That's fine but why not wait the 2 turns needed to complete printing press first which will give you extra gold from villages and towns and might get some gold from trading it around as well.

There are just about enough already upgraded units and catapults moving to Santiago to service our galleons for the 2 turns.

I propose an half-way:
in this turn we got money for 1 upgrade (and i choose the axe), then:
- I'll stop research this turn, to get the upgraded unit overseas;
- go 100% next turn, so we delay only 1t PP;
- after PP stop research, to upgrade units arrived in our (hopefully) new lands.

Completely agree the rest of your post.

Bear in mind that our swords can be good only against heavy damaged units, on monarch AI has an upgrade discount (70%), so we'll encounter Longbows, Maces and knights ... no hope for less than a Samurai.

To help to be optimistic, in a solo game I had a Cavalry killed defending against a Samurai, and also as defenders they can win.
Always to be optimistic, usually MM do NOT has a strong army, until rifles. In addition he's at war in the opposite border, so ... now or never more.

What about my other points? (and this, of course)

edit @ BrianS
you was posting when i was, so:
of course, if we have enough units i'll try the Capital, too
but don't forget the cultural pressure from HC, djenne is close to his capital, too (next victim after MM?)

and yes, in the other round i prepared and ended the war, this time is my turn to start

Why not keep 12 turns now that a lot of thing need to be decided? (so we avoid war-time and peace differences)

Sweetacshon · Sep 21, 2006

Merum said:
That means I'll be in your hemisphere most of the time, so watch out, mate!

Umm... isn't China in the northern hemisphere? :mischief:

Anyway, the beer is certainly on me.. you should come over. :beer:

Oustanding TS, Perugia, although I thought we were going to crush HC first... not to worry, he'll keep. Forgive my ignorance, you said the file was uploaded, but didn't post the link, so where can I get it.

Without seeing the save, I think all GP efforts should go towards a GProphet, as the shrine would be a great boost, but perhaps taking Djenne would just be good enough

The point about the defences of S&T and Kyoto is well made; I would'nt want to have to wrestle one of them back off an AI.

Again, I have to be general here, but let's be quick about our war with MM so we can knock over HC with the same units. Just take what we need for now, and lets Bismark do all the hard work, although maybe he already has. :salute:

Speaking of which, what's the likelyhood of getting him to move onto Hatty straight after MM?

Merum · Sep 21, 2006

Sweetacshon said:
Umm... isn't China in the northern hemisphere?
Anyway, the beer is certainly on me.. you should come over.

Smartass... now you're going to owe me a steak, too. and not that funky kangaroo stuff either. I get enough strange (snd sometimes living) meat in China. :vomit:

You can view the list of team saves here. Simply clicking on the year in our team's listing will give you the save. Be careful not to grab somebody else's, we don't wanna get disqualified.

SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

Permanent Jet Lag

Warlord

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

Prince

Permanent Jet Lag

Prince

Permanent Jet Lag

In the foetal position

Prince

Permanent Jet Lag

Prince

Permanent Jet Lag

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

Prince

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

In the foetal position

Permanent Jet Lag

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