Cat Behemoth
Warlord
I think I'll can't play until saturday. (some tech problems and busy time) So it may be good to swap me and Obormot in the roster?
SGOTM 02 - Team CFR
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Balbes
Instigator
Animal Husbandry not Agriculture, though. We really need to get an economy going sooner rather than later, and the pasture is a 7-prod tile vs. the 4 of the rice.
That would be great. I will play if I see no objections from anybody in the next ~3 hours. (Goign with the second plan)
We can reach AH either through hunting or through agriculture. If we go the safe archery routse, the hunting is clearly better, but if we go without archery then we can consider both ways. Agriculture is a bit more expensive and might delay growth by a turn because of a later pasture, but it can be usefull for the third city.
Balbes
Instigator
I edited my last post: it's 7-prod even, not 6. And by the way we're not that rich on hammers: 4 w/o pasture 5 with it, that's a considerable difference. AH also keeps our options open (should we need Archery), while AG becomes useful only for the 3rd city and we don't even know where we want that city. Let's wait till BW before deciding on a location. AH reveals horses too.
Balbes
Instigator
Oh fudge, a mental fluke led me to believe it's "either AH or AG". In fact you're proposing to scrap Hunting altogether. That's ok with me.
akots
Poet
Obormot said:
OK then, good luck and keep us posted on the progress. IMO, we will not be in a serious danger from barbarians with proper planning and positioning of sentries before axemen appear. So, as soon as BW is discovered, we have to connect copper as rapidly as possible if there is anything to connect in the vicinity.
Balbes
Instigator
Good luck Obormot! Remember T49 is the deadline when we're going to need all the defense we can muster, so please don't get too adventurous with our warrior!
Balbes
Instigator
Retarding their progress is of course dirty tactics, but this time we'd be helping them, by almost giving them spoiler info (expressly prohibited by the rules). The best thing there could be is there weren't any culture graph to begin with. Of course usually it isn't very valuable at all, but in this special case the sharp incline in our graph can be interpreted in one way only.akots said:
akots
Poet
That is also OK I think. They will see it and acknowledge it in their thread. It would be evident to Those Who Can Read All Threads ( 
) where their gaming plan came from especially if they switched suddenly.
@Obormot: Just take 20 turns, it is OK imo. Then we will start playing by 10 turn increments.
) where their gaming plan came from especially if they switched suddenly.@Obormot: Just take 20 turns, it is OK imo. Then we will start playing by 10 turn increments.
Dynamic
But not hurry
I made some tests and can confirm Balbes's data. So, we need at least 4 defenders near Osaka. I think Warriors are enough because they could promote before Archers.
P.S. Sorry, I didn't read last posts... But we must produce many Warriors (4-5) if we don't go for Archery.
P.S. Sorry, I didn't read last posts... But we must produce many Warriors (4-5) if we don't go for Archery.
Dynamic
But not hurry
May be 18 for synchronize with %10 turn number...akots said:
Dynamic
But not hurry
May be we need mine Gold first... In this case we can force production without lose the money if we will need more defenders.
I have played 18 turns to even out the turn number. It is also a natural breakpoint because we are at turn 50 now and the barbs have just started knocking at our door!
3040BC - Switch science to Agriculture.
3010BC - Isabella settles and our warrior is teleported. Gem mine is complete.
2980BC - Kyoto builds warrior, starts WB. Worker prebuilds road NE of Osaka.
2950BC - Worker starts 2nd gem mine. Warrior is healed and starts moving towards Osaka.
2920BC - Kyoto grows to size 4.
2890BC - Citizen moved from oasis to the gem mine to synchronize growth and 2nd mine.
2860BC -
2830BC - Osaka builds warrior, starts another.
2800BC - Osaka grows and works 2 gem mines now. But maintenance is now 10 coins.
2770BC - Worker continues building the road prebuild.
2740BC - Northern warrior kills lion. Promoted with cover. Agriculture is done, start AH.
2710BC - Worker moves to the gold hill.
2680BC - Worker starts road.
2650BC - Osaka builds warrior, starts another.
2620BC - Kyoto grows.
2590BC - Worker starts gold mine prebuild.
2560BC -
2530BC - Turn 49 and a barb is already spawned close to us (near eastern gem mine)!
2500BC - We win our first battle against the barbs. There is one more barb in the east and one more in the south. Osaka builds another warrior.
OK, good luck to CB! The barbs should start coming in huge numbers now according to Balbes and I didn't build any archers for you!
I think we should go with 10 turns each now. We should be very carefull.
3040BC - Switch science to Agriculture.
3010BC - Isabella settles and our warrior is teleported. Gem mine is complete.
2980BC - Kyoto builds warrior, starts WB. Worker prebuilds road NE of Osaka.
2950BC - Worker starts 2nd gem mine. Warrior is healed and starts moving towards Osaka.
2920BC - Kyoto grows to size 4.
2890BC - Citizen moved from oasis to the gem mine to synchronize growth and 2nd mine.
2860BC -
2830BC - Osaka builds warrior, starts another.
2800BC - Osaka grows and works 2 gem mines now. But maintenance is now 10 coins.
2770BC - Worker continues building the road prebuild.
2740BC - Northern warrior kills lion. Promoted with cover. Agriculture is done, start AH.
2710BC - Worker moves to the gold hill.
2680BC - Worker starts road.
2650BC - Osaka builds warrior, starts another.
2620BC - Kyoto grows.
2590BC - Worker starts gold mine prebuild.
2560BC -
2530BC - Turn 49 and a barb is already spawned close to us (near eastern gem mine)!
2500BC - We win our first battle against the barbs. There is one more barb in the east and one more in the south. Osaka builds another warrior.
OK, good luck to CB! The barbs should start coming in huge numbers now according to Balbes and I didn't build any archers for you!
I think we should go with 10 turns each now. We should be very carefull.
Dynamic, we actually don't have to. If we go with 2 gem mines and grow to pop 3, we'll have ~6 warriors with 1 starting at pop3 - enough for initial defense. We can then produce 1 every 3 turns using gold mine to restore our defenders.
Balbes, if we have BW and get copper, we never need archers, there's no call even for researching them.
Obormot, I have no strong disagreement with your no-archery plan, I find it very good as well, it is just that my plan allows to get settler, second city and axes at least 8 turns earlier (with no chops) than if you start it at pop 4. This means less risk to be overrun by barbs. But this is the question of risk-aversion - as I said, I'm all right with both your and mine non-archery plans.
Just one note on techs - I'd better use agriculture than hunting as we have irrigable resources in vicinity and don't have campable. Also, sailing is justified only if scouting these 2 islands north from Kyoto provides any good. As I see from the game and screens, they do not continue North and if there are no islands or continent further North, we'd better not found there cities which would be dragging us down when we move the palace (if we do). Earlier writing (I propose before sailing and priesthood as we can pre-chop wood for Oracle) will make our capital more useful - we'll have no use for its food very soon.
Again, Alphabet, GL and NE are discussible. In my opinion, we can finish conquest with Samurai, so no research beyond Astronomy and CS needed. A puny city with 1 food resource, library and 2 scientists - here goes your GL effect. As we won't build academies, no extra bonus loss to research here. Make several such cities - and you boost your research and generate GS points. The good point with GL is that it doesn't take food and concentrated scientists provide GPP faster, so we should compare the effect with costs when time comes.
As for Alphabet, there aren't that much techs we could take for our conquest from our rivals as we have stronger research and are developing directly towards requred techs. Archery, Horseback riding, Pottery, maybe Maths - and all of them aren't crucial for success.
Balbes, if we have BW and get copper, we never need archers, there's no call even for researching them.
Obormot, I have no strong disagreement with your no-archery plan, I find it very good as well, it is just that my plan allows to get settler, second city and axes at least 8 turns earlier (with no chops) than if you start it at pop 4. This means less risk to be overrun by barbs. But this is the question of risk-aversion - as I said, I'm all right with both your and mine non-archery plans.
Just one note on techs - I'd better use agriculture than hunting as we have irrigable resources in vicinity and don't have campable. Also, sailing is justified only if scouting these 2 islands north from Kyoto provides any good. As I see from the game and screens, they do not continue North and if there are no islands or continent further North, we'd better not found there cities which would be dragging us down when we move the palace (if we do). Earlier writing (I propose before sailing and priesthood as we can pre-chop wood for Oracle) will make our capital more useful - we'll have no use for its food very soon.
Again, Alphabet, GL and NE are discussible. In my opinion, we can finish conquest with Samurai, so no research beyond Astronomy and CS needed. A puny city with 1 food resource, library and 2 scientists - here goes your GL effect. As we won't build academies, no extra bonus loss to research here. Make several such cities - and you boost your research and generate GS points. The good point with GL is that it doesn't take food and concentrated scientists provide GPP faster, so we should compare the effect with costs when time comes.
As for Alphabet, there aren't that much techs we could take for our conquest from our rivals as we have stronger research and are developing directly towards requred techs. Archery, Horseback riding, Pottery, maybe Maths - and all of them aren't crucial for success.
Earlier axes is great, but how were you planning to defend 2 cities with just 5 warriors. That seemed a bit risky to me, so I went with my plan that allows to build 8 warriors before settler. It seems that both plans were about equal on hammers generated, with my plan being less risky and having a faster science. It also seems that most other people agreed with me. In any case it is too late, sorry
Maybe you are right, because so far we haven't met anybody except Isabella, and we don't have marble, but we'll see.
To synchronise growth with the second gem mine. I lost a few turns of working the first mine, but grew faster and gained a few turns of working the second mine (And a few turns of working the gold hill
).I hate this guy, he always has the right answerObormot said:
You have worked oasis 4 turns after gem mine completion before switching to gem mine, gaining thus 4 food for 4 hammers and 16 coins. You had 15 food stockpiled for growth when you completed mine. By working oasis it took you 4+3 = 7 turns. If you have switched to gem mine, it would have taken (33-15)/2 = 9 turns. This gives 2 more turns of 2nd gem mine and 2 (or smth like) more of gold, totalling 8 hammers, 4 food, and 28 coins more. So net effect is 8 food, 4 hammers, and 28-16-2*2 (city maintenance) = 8 coins. You've shown your quality, Obormot. The highest one.(c)
Balbes
Instigator
We're rooting for you CB! The future of the empire depends on your tactical skills. Obormot has left you a good position with 4 defenders already present. Just 5 warriors surely wouldn't have been enough; it's the lowest required number but then we'd need to win ALL the fights. 8 is just beginning to feel somewhat comfortable, with 5 warriors in position, 1 healing in the city, 1 moving in to heal and 1 moving out to reinforce. We should rebuild up to 8 as we lose them.
Where I disagree with you Obormot is having chosen the Cover promotion. Woodsman is almost as effective, and it helps vs warriors as well. I think we should promote with Woodsman I-II from now on. And why is that warrior fortified on a hill, outside our cultural borders (slower healing), while he could be defending in a forest across a river?
Alright gentlemen, we've all done heavy barbarian combat before I'm sure - here it comes!
Where I disagree with you Obormot is having chosen the Cover promotion. Woodsman is almost as effective, and it helps vs warriors as well. I think we should promote with Woodsman I-II from now on. And why is that warrior fortified on a hill, outside our cultural borders (slower healing), while he could be defending in a forest across a river?
Alright gentlemen, we've all done heavy barbarian combat before I'm sure - here it comes!
You are propably right about using woodsman promotion. One warrior with cover may be helpfull though if we need to defend a non-forest tile (which is possible). The warrior on the hill has just killed a barb warrior and didn't move yet, so we didn't loose any turns healing outside. We can move him onto the forest square east of the gem mine now.
Do we need to discuss how to set up our defenses in some more detail? Most barbs will propably come from the south and from the east since Spain is quite close up north and there is a mountain ridge partially blocking Osaka from the north, so it may be tempting to position most our warriors south and east os Osaka, but that will leave the pasture and one of the mines exposed...
Do we need to discuss how to set up our defenses in some more detail? Most barbs will propably come from the south and from the east since Spain is quite close up north and there is a mountain ridge partially blocking Osaka from the north, so it may be tempting to position most our warriors south and east os Osaka, but that will leave the pasture and one of the mines exposed...
akots
Poet
Well, there is always a possibility to research archery. It is not an expensive tech and will not slow us down significantly. Just a sngle archer or may be two will be very helful here. I'd prefer archery to sailing and actually to any other tech. And we need more roads to perimeter of Osaka. Even if barbarians will get through, they would stop to pillage the roads which gives us more chance to counter them.
