SGOTM 02 - Team CFR

[Dynamic]

2 additional cities will set our science to zero. So, we need to build Palace ASAP after that. South Copper city looks good, but placed too far. We must defend it and connect via long road. Also good position for city is left from Forest Hill on the south, near Wheat and Sheeps. Eastern Copper city is also too far from Osaka. The most safe way - to settle in the desert right from Plain Hill. In this case we have fast access to Copper (less roads) and easier defence. Of course, this isn't ideal position, but enough good.
We must save several Forests for Palace chop because it costs 240 hammers.
If we are planning to build Settlers soon, we don't need Pottery (only for Writing's bonus) because gold mine will be more effective for that.
So, Pottery, Priesthood and Writing.
Also, we need more Workers, but I don't know yet, when will be better.

 

[Balbes]

I don't really like the idea. Let us just settle ASAP. We just loose 100 beakers or so (if we really want to build palace after 2 settlers). Also it may very well work out that production will be more important then science (especially if there is someone else except Isabella on our continent).

I agree.

The techs we need urgently are pottery and writing. I am not sure in what order to research them. Propably it is better to learn pottery & priesthood first to get a bonus.

After poprushing the workboat Kyoto will need to regrow back to 6 before being able to poprush a library for 3. So we have time to slot in either Pottery or Priesthood but not both. With Pottery, Kyoto will start on a granary right away after the library. Or do we try to build the Oracle in Kyoto?

 

[Balbes]

placed too far. We must defend it and connect via long road. ... Eastern Copper city is also too far from Osaka. The most safe way - to settle in the desert right from Plain Hill. In this case we have fast access to Copper (less roads) and easier defence. Of course, this isn't ideal position, but enough good.

To be honest I can't think of any other merit of that city's other than providing copper. And we really need strong production output very soon.

Also, we need more Workers, but I don't know yet, when will be better.

After building the next city, I say we concentrate on axemen (maybe a workboat first), produce 4 axemen from 2 cities and go take Isabella's lesser cities; meanwhile produce 2 more and take her capital. With luck that'll provide us with 2 workers.

 

[Lexad]

1. Iron is crucial for our strat - rushing for Astro or developing Military and Transport simultaneously - so we should put IW somewhere early to clear things out. Proposed sequence is Writing-Priesthood-Pottery/IW, depending on our financial situation and Osaka's growth.

2. Axes will protect us from both warriors and archers, and barb axes aren't expected earlier than 1000BC even at Emperor, so we shouldn't worry about East copper city location(NE from copper) which I proposed. It is protected from all sides save SE, so 2-3 fog-busting warriors should make it and copper lifeline unthreatable. The road building required is just 1 tile more than Dynamic's proposal. I'm not satisfied with southern copper location because it is open for attacks from all sides.
Also, people seem to believe archers and warriors pop simultaneously. All my past experience with barbs, including raging, contradicts it. So it might be better to promote our guarding warriors with Shock (+25% vs melee) as they will be facing warriors. Our archer-killers are axes.

3. I agree with Dynamic and Balbes that we should build palace ASAP. It will significantly reduce our upkeep, requires only 4 cities, while FP needs 8 and 6 Chouses.

4. Repeating my proposal on Kyoto: not limiting growth (let them revolt, we have enough food), 1 turn before getting writing pop-rush boat, 2 turns after that (if Kyoto is pop 6) or at pop 6 poprush library, set 2 scientists and have a decent city with 2 scientists and moderate growth. I like Obormot's idea of using HRule and pop-rushing units - we will need plenty of catas, and after Astronomy we can use overseas resources and produce other units.
As for Balbes's question, Kyoto is unsuitable for Oracle - many hammers, low production base, pop-rushing Wonders costs double. Even pop-rushing some minor stuff near end of its production and putting overflow into Oracle several times won't help, I'm afraid.

Want to join Dynamic's message - "But not hurry". There's no single or close position so far in the team, so we'd better spend some more time on discussion. We don't have to help our rivals

 

[Balbes]

Also, people seem to believe archers and warriors pop simultaneously. All my past experience with barbs, including raging, contradicts it. So it might be better to promote our guarding warriors with Shock (+25% vs melee) as they will be facing warriors.

Again, Woodsman is more versatile and almost as powerful. We shouldn't be fighting in the open anyway.

4. Repeating my proposal on Kyoto: not limiting growth (let them revolt, we have enough food), 1 turn before getting writing pop-rush boat, 2 turns after that (if Kyoto is pop 6) or at pop 6 poprush library,

I believe Kyoto will reach pop-6 4 turns after that, so we have the time to research one "helper" tech before Writing.

 

[akots]

Well, not willing to repeat previous mistakes which we made in SGOTM1, it might be a good idea to get rid of Isabella as rapidly as reasonably possible. We might also need Astronomy and hence might need to farm for a few Great Scientists. And the earlier we start, the sooner we will finish. So, next tech might be Writing as well. I'm not sure we need Priesthood now since we are not going to build Oracle anytime soon and this is a cheap tech, we can research it anytime. I'm also not very sure if and when we would want to build cottages, so the value of Pottery is also somewhat questionable. IMHO, we can go Writing and then Iron Working. Meanwhile, we might try to build another worker and 2 settlers and settle somewhere in the middle and close to copper/iron (if we have one) and then chop-chop the Palace while our science comes to a halt (with 2 workers will take about 25-30 turns). This time we can use to build axemen/swordsmen/chariots and start war against Spain.

I'm not sure we should try to settle all the continent, just the most powerful locations here to get as many bonus resources as possible.

As for the city locations, one for the Palace should be somewhere near the horses, slightly to the east because it is apparently in the middle and it has a lot of forests to chop.

In this map, it does not seem that production will be a real trouble. We should try to focus on research and Great People (Scientists). So, actually, connecting stone might be a good idea and may be we should try to build Pyramids for Representation but it would all depend on AI.

 

[Balbes]

We can protect the southern city and the road with just 3 strategically placed warriors, therefore staying within our limit of 8. Especially so if Isabella builds yet another city in the north and it draws more attackers there. The northern city would need even less than 3 defenders, and also have more choppable forest; but it'd cost us a settler. The northern spot Isabella can settle for us, but the south we have to do ourselves.

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

I load the save now and try to describe my thoughts.

First of all, I undderstand, that my main task to these 10 turns is defendig against barbarians.
Next time, if I understand clearly - our best science path is Writing-Presthood. In my own game I should try Priesthood-Writing (back order), but In this game Writing need for us to build Lib in Kyoto, is not it?

I see, that we build one more Warrior in Osaka (5 turns) and City gow up to size 4 after 7 turns.
I must start to build Settler when Osaka went to size 4 and chop him, am not I?
Or our plan is

Osaka: warrior-1(7), grow->2(8), warrior-2(12), warrior-3(17), warrior-4(23), grow->3(24) warrior-5(27), warrior-6(32), grow->4(34), warrior-7(35) - ?, settler-?

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

And I want to convert to Slavery civic immediately - is I right?

For the global strategy I want to say next:
- idea to build next two cities and Palace after they seems as good.
- refusing of Oracle building and blitz war for Isabella (and m.b who anather) may be good thoughts too.
- for third city I think about east location (m.b on desert), but Settler demands 17 turns now - Isabella can to build city here. And I think, that idea to allow for she to make more cities for us not so bad.

 

[Dynamic]

Slavery.
Writing-IW
Osaka - Warrior, part of Warrior, Settler. Worker go to NN and chop Forest for Settler, then, may be, Rice...
Warriors promoted only if needed, Shock. WB on the nearest resource.
As wrote above, 1 turn before Writing pop rush Kyoto.
1 Warrior could search the place for future city.

 

[Balbes]

Next time, if I understand clearly - our best science path is Writing-Presthood. In my own game I should try Priesthood-Writing (back order), but In this game Writing need for us to build Lib in Kyoto, is not it?

I've done the calculations and the fastest way for us to build the library is indeed Writing-first. (I was pushing for helper-tech-first before but it was incorrect.)

For the global strategy I want to say next:
- idea to build next two cities and Palace after they seems as good.

It is actually a very smart idea. But I don't think we're going to have any spare production capacity in order to be building a second settler, the palace, workers and so on... What we should be building is axemen. Once we have the axemen, we'll have plenty of cities, forests and workers.

EDIT:

And I want to convert to Slavery civic immediately - is I right?

It is better to switch just before you need to whip, so as not to delay the output of warriors from Osaka (even if by just 1 turn).

 

[akots]

We can protect the southern city ...

What is the purpose of building that city in the south so soon? Get Copper connected? But we have other copper closer in the north. I just don't get it.

There are also barbarians, they might wish to build a few cities as well. Might be not in ideal locations but their cities are actualy good since they give us both cash to support research and some limited experience for units to fight other wars.

We need some research but rather limited set of techs probably up to Samurai and up to Astronomy and nothing else. It might be we don't even need Construction. Or we might need all the way to Construction and Guilds? It is very hard to tell.

 

[akots]

... And I think, that idea to allow for she to make more cities for us not so bad.

I'm nt so sure. We must not allow Spain to become powerful. Just kill them and forget about them. They are not going to trade techs with us or provide for any other help.

In our previous game, as we know now, letting the other neighbor AI on a continent to live for a long time is not a good idea. It is not a bad idea but not a very productive one. In general, we are better off building a settler than 3-4 swordsmen/axemen (or more than that) and moving them and capturing these cities. Especially AI does not build the cities in a nice location always, so might need to raze them.

 

[Balbes]

What is the purpose of building that city in the south so soon? Get Copper connected? But we have other copper closer in the north. I just don't get it.

I'm presuming we want an army as quickly as possible for the conquering of Isabella. For that, we need copper and a good base production. The only two locations providing both are the copper in the north, and the copper in the south. But copper city in the south will reach that high base production much sooner, because it can work the fish tile right away and grow quickly.

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

And one more question, as I see there is not a path from Kyoto Archipelago.
I want to use a boat to fish fishes.

1 Warrior could search the place for future city.

I try to go east (nearest copper)

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

Save

Little summary:
(0) 2200BC - CFR adopts Slavery! IW changed to Writing.
(2) 2140BC - City borders were expanded.
(4) 2080BC - I saw a barbarian warrior, which moved north (to Izza)
(6) 2020BC - Warrior had built. New one started .
(7) 1990BC - far-far away Judaism has been founded. On this or prev turn one our Warrior (which was cover promoted) moved to north-east. Izza founded new city NNE from stone. And this city became Holy City of Judaism.
(8) 1960BC - Osaka's size = 4. Turn to Settler, citizen to gold mine.
(9) 1930BC - On my own risk moved recon-warrior to unrevealed tile. M.b it was mistke - nearby tiel was occuped by 2 barb warrriors. They kill our warrior after turn (one of them was dead). Pop-rushing in Kyoto.
(10) Writing-IW. New WB in Kyoto, Lib started - (IMHO next turn we can rus it, Kyoto's size=5).

Totally we kill 6 barbarians and lose 1. When I wrote this text I remembed one more my error - I press not "cover" but "shock" for one our warrior
Our worken firs of all chop forest NN, then go to Rise

One screen made: Spanish new city - Holy Judish City.

 

[Balbes]

Good job Ptitsa Consul! Some combat losses are unavoidable. It may be a good idea now to finish the partially built warrior in Osaka.

Why is our worker farming the rice instead of chopping for the settler? I know it was suggested by Dynamic, but without any explanation. Are we going to need that rice any time soon?

 

[Balbes]

(10) Writing-IW. New WB in Kyoto, Lib started - (IMHO next turn we can rus it, Kyoto's size=5).

Unfortunately we can't, poprushing the library requires 3 pop (as discussed above) and that means size 6. Also I have to point out that by improving the fish while we should've improved crabs ("nearest resource" to quote Dynamic), our library got delayed by 1 turn.
It's no biggie, we're in a good position, so let's move on.

 

[akots]

Roster:

Dynamic
CB
Obormot
Psitsa - just played
akots - UP
Balbes - preparing
Lexad
IL2T

So, what to do next? I think I'll proceed according to the plan. Which is researching IW and building a city near the horses in the middle with the settler. It might be, we can handle the maintenance cost for now but I'll double-check. May hold up the settler and wait until we discover Iron working and start on Pottery. We then would need to build another worker in Osaka and I am very tempted to try to steal a worker from Spain. We have different religions and there is little need to keep good relationships with them.

IMO, improving rice is a good idea, we can chop for settler sometimes later on.

Building the cities with these 2 settlers will not come on my watch. So, please make sure we don't build the city in the south now. We can build it later. For the time being, we need to see where iron is and what will Spain do and what would happen with barbarians.

I think I will play tomorrow.

 

[Balbes]

IMO, improving rice is a good idea, we can chop for settler sometimes later on.

Do we switch to the rice immediately after the farm is done? Which of the currently worked tiles do we abandon?

What are the benefits of completing the settler later rather than sooner?

In other news,
We can sign Open Borders with Isabella and maybe send one of our guys to take a peek at the lands beoynd the isthmus.