SGOTM 03 - Team VQ
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Jawohl das ist gut
Meatbuster
formerly Robo Kai
At home, it's not the ads actually that slows down CFC, it's the forum itself that's taking forever to load. When I go to my start page (which is Civ4 SG forum) the loading stops, say, after listing a couple of SG's. Going into a thread is worse.
I don't want to have any conspiracy theories, but my ISP seems to want to "ban" CFC from my home use, which is totally evil.
CFC works perfectly here in the office, making me want to install Civ4 here if only it would not get me into any trouble.
I don't want to have any conspiracy theories, but my ISP seems to want to "ban" CFC from my home use, which is totally evil.
CFC works perfectly here in the office, making me want to install Civ4 here if only it would not get me into any trouble.
namliaM
Deity
It was my idea to delay Metal Casting in favour of CS, so go for it...
Actually just to confirm a little the calculation on that...
We get (atleast?) 1560 beakers from the merchant not 1500. Speeding up CS by (1560-1008) = 552 / 80 = 6.9=>7 turns saved on CS.
Offcourse if our economy booms... and we are at that time allready at 111 beakers, it will only be 5 turns...
Also there is a bug in my "XMas" techtree (the bulb tree
, whatever). I appearently skipped over Scientific Method (thanks Cosmic and Dot for pointing that out). This is actually tech #3 instead of Physics, so all other scientist bulbs move back one.
Approx Tech costs
1300 Paper
4000 Education
3600 PP
4400 Astro
5382 Sci Meth
Worldbuilder test shows that the Scientist has a base beaker count of 2250. And I think he adds 4 beakers (+small change?) per population in the Civilization. This means if we have 10 cities (just 4 more than planned right now), all at size 8 (on average) we have 80 pop. 80 * 4.sth = 320 + 2250 = 2570+ which seems to agree with estimations of both Dot and Cosmic (again).
Therefor burning more than 1 scientist on PP, Education and Astro is wasting quite some beakers.
Therefor we thought: Suppose we can have 4 scientists prior to researching Liberalism.
We burn one on either Education or PP, one on Astro and 2 on Sci Method. This makes maximum use of the beakers granted by the scientists and minimize the beaker count we have to invest => the # turns required is lower => the idea is more likely to succeed. We could then pick up Physics as the freebee.
If we can spawn 5 we can burn one on both Education and PP.
If we can spawn 4 extra scientists we can burn away Physics allowing Electricity
I think I now finaly see where the real power of the SE is. Not really in the specialists but the great people.
At 12 GPP we currently get a GS in 26 turns (100 beakers/turn )
38 turns to the next
50 turns to the next
64 turns to #4
That is assuming we run 2 scientists in 1 city.
By running 2 cities with 2 scientists assuming we will start the second city (Rostov?) 30 turns later than the first (St. Petes?).
St. Petes will then generate 2 scientists in a row (Respectively on turn 26 + 64 turn), before Moscow can generate the Merchant.
Rostov will then generate its first scientist on turn 81
St.Petes will generate GS #4 at turn 126
Rostov will then generate #5 at turn 156
It jumps to turn 214 for #6!
And the GM will be born in Moscow as GP #7 at turn 252
GS #7 will take to turn 269
and finaly GS #8 a whopping 339 turns
In order for 6 GS to be born before an extra GM from Moscow (with only TGLigh in it), the first city has to start running 2 scientists before Moscow hits 200 GPP. The second city has to start running 2 scientists before moscow gets to 400.
So having 2 cities run 2 scientists for 156 turns will generate us 5 GS' which seems (for me atleast) to be a realistic goal.
Offcourse all this goes out the window if we:
1) Addopt a state religion and run Pacifism.
Should roughly half the time after we addopt it.
2) Add specialists to the city/cities (i.e. run an extra Engineer, poluting the GP-pool with 33% chance to generate a GE)
Running 1 engineer in St. Petes will up GP #8 to turn 181, 5 of those will come from St. Petes, atleast 1 of which will likely be a GE (33%).
Adding an engineer to rostov too will pull #8 to turn 165 now generating 7 GPs from a poluted gen-pool (atleast 1, likely 2 GE).
3) Run more cities with Specialists
adding a third city (again 30 turns after Rostov?) with 2 scientists will pull GS #6 to turn 169 and #8 to 294, way to late for Liberalism
And make for the GM to never appear (if we keep running the 6 scientists)
Adding a forth city (again 30 turns after the Third) doesnt change #6 but will make GS #8 generate on turn 224. Still way late I think.
I have at this time no clue what we would use another GM for, Economics?
I will try and put together a guestimate at research times (some day)
Actually just to confirm a little the calculation on that...
We get (atleast?) 1560 beakers from the merchant not 1500. Speeding up CS by (1560-1008) = 552 / 80 = 6.9=>7 turns saved on CS.
Offcourse if our economy booms... and we are at that time allready at 111 beakers, it will only be 5 turns...
Also there is a bug in my "XMas" techtree (the bulb tree
, whatever). I appearently skipped over Scientific Method (thanks Cosmic and Dot for pointing that out). This is actually tech #3 instead of Physics, so all other scientist bulbs move back one.Approx Tech costs
1300 Paper
4000 Education
3600 PP
4400 Astro
5382 Sci Meth
Worldbuilder test shows that the Scientist has a base beaker count of 2250. And I think he adds 4 beakers (+small change?) per population in the Civilization. This means if we have 10 cities (just 4 more than planned right now), all at size 8 (on average) we have 80 pop. 80 * 4.sth = 320 + 2250 = 2570+ which seems to agree with estimations of both Dot and Cosmic (again).
Therefor burning more than 1 scientist on PP, Education and Astro is wasting quite some beakers.
Therefor we thought: Suppose we can have 4 scientists prior to researching Liberalism.
We burn one on either Education or PP, one on Astro and 2 on Sci Method. This makes maximum use of the beakers granted by the scientists and minimize the beaker count we have to invest => the # turns required is lower => the idea is more likely to succeed. We could then pick up Physics as the freebee.
If we can spawn 5 we can burn one on both Education and PP.
If we can spawn 4 extra scientists we can burn away Physics allowing Electricity
I think I now finaly see where the real power of the SE is. Not really in the specialists but the great people.
At 12 GPP we currently get a GS in 26 turns (100 beakers/turn
)38 turns to the next
50 turns to the next
64 turns to #4
That is assuming we run 2 scientists in 1 city.
By running 2 cities with 2 scientists assuming we will start the second city (Rostov?) 30 turns later than the first (St. Petes?).
St. Petes will then generate 2 scientists in a row (Respectively on turn 26 + 64 turn), before Moscow can generate the Merchant.
Rostov will then generate its first scientist on turn 81
St.Petes will generate GS #4 at turn 126
Rostov will then generate #5 at turn 156
It jumps to turn 214 for #6!
And the GM will be born in Moscow as GP #7 at turn 252
GS #7 will take to turn 269
and finaly GS #8 a whopping 339 turns
In order for 6 GS to be born before an extra GM from Moscow (with only TGLigh in it), the first city has to start running 2 scientists before Moscow hits 200 GPP. The second city has to start running 2 scientists before moscow gets to 400.
So having 2 cities run 2 scientists for 156 turns will generate us 5 GS' which seems (for me atleast) to be a realistic goal.
Offcourse all this goes out the window if we:
1) Addopt a state religion and run Pacifism.
Should roughly half the time after we addopt it.
2) Add specialists to the city/cities (i.e. run an extra Engineer, poluting the GP-pool with 33% chance to generate a GE)
Running 1 engineer in St. Petes will up GP #8 to turn 181, 5 of those will come from St. Petes, atleast 1 of which will likely be a GE (33%).
Adding an engineer to rostov too will pull #8 to turn 165 now generating 7 GPs from a poluted gen-pool (atleast 1, likely 2 GE).
3) Run more cities with Specialists
adding a third city (again 30 turns after Rostov?) with 2 scientists will pull GS #6 to turn 169 and #8 to 294, way to late for Liberalism
And make for the GM to never appear (if we keep running the 6 scientists)
Adding a forth city (again 30 turns after the Third) doesnt change #6 but will make GS #8 generate on turn 224. Still way late I think.
I have at this time no clue what we would use another GM for, Economics?
I will try and put together a guestimate at research times (some day)
namliaM
Deity
Well we could make sure to have i.e. Hinduism in our GP cities, that way we can/could run Pacifism for a bit while enjoying the State Religion 
Downside offcourse of switching in and out of Religions is the Anarchy. Not switching to i.e. Hinduism when "friends" ask us will give us a Diplo minus.
Downside offcourse of switching in and out of Religions is the Anarchy. Not switching to i.e. Hinduism when "friends" ask us will give us a Diplo minus.
namliaM
Deity
I edited the tech tree in my techtree post. I will add the corrected one here too...
I added Scientific Method which I appearently skipped over for the Great Scientist.
For easy reference I will post links to these posts of mine every once in a while:
Long term goals
Cities
Techtree/beeline/GPs Edit
Wonders
Research times
GP generation
We have the following techs to research
Currency 603 beakers left will take 9 turns (56 beakers/turn * 1.2 = 67 beakers/turn)
---> Add 5*2 commerce for having currency, 66 * 1.2 = 79
Metal casting 1008/79 = 12.75 turns
---> Add Library in Moscow + 5 beakers
---> Add City E, 8 commerce traderoutes + 5 for the gems = 13.
---> Add gems in Yaroslavl + 5 commerce
===> 66 + 23 = 99 * 1.2 = 118
Civil Service 1794 - 1560 (Merchant) = 234 / 118 = 2.0
---> add 2 scientists in St. Petes?? + 7 beakers
---> Add 10 commerce in Moscow for Burocracy + 2 from the library
===> 118 + 7 + 12 = 137 * 1.2 = 164
Machinery 1569 / 164 = 9.6 Macemen
========
To get to macemen 9 + 12.75 + 2.0 + 9.6 = 33.35 turns from now (i.e. turn ~174).
Or if we think this is to early (can that be?), we can delay this by some turns easy by researching Compass. If we feel we need even more time add in Paper => Education into the route.
Meanwhile we can stockpile some Axemen ~10? that we can upgrade... We will need some 100 gold per Axe to upgrade!
Or we can start the war with Axemen and Catapults, upgrading the Axemen with the Pillage money from
1) Capturing cities (> 100 gold per city = 1 upgrade per city)
2) Any unwanted/unneeded Cottages/Hamletts/Villages??/Towns???
This way we only promote like CR2 Axemen to Macemen. Tho... how likely is a Mace to fall to a (protective) archer in a city without cultural defence?
---> Add Gems in "E" and Rostov + 10 commerce = 147 * 1.2 = 176
Compass 897 / 176 = 5.1
Optics 1345 / 176 = 7.7
====> ETA Optics 34 + 13 = 47 (in contrary to 55-60 I had previously)
Paper 1345 / 176 = 7.7
====> Total 13 + 7 = 20 turns
---> Drop to 80% science, 147 * 80% = 117 * 1.2 = 140
Education 4036 - 2400 = 1636 / 140 = 11.7
Printing Press 3588 / 140 = 25.6
====> Total 38 turns
Astronomy 4485 - 2400 = 2085 / 140 = 14.9
Liberalism 3139 / 140 = 22.4
So on a very lose and slow estimate 34 + 20 + 38 + 15 + 22 = 129 turns to Liberalism in which time we would have to have 4 GS, 2 allready burned. 2 to burn on Scientific Method.
Accoording to my estimates on GP generation getting 4 GS will take 126 turns with 2 cities running 2 scientists. In other words we will have to start ASAP, or get more GP points (Caste/Pacifism) if we want to try for the Physics freebee.
However, if we take into account that beelining may not be a wise thing to do... How about we try to shoot for Steel (6279) to be the free tech ??
Early Grenadiers + Cannons (No astronomy = No Frigats and No Observatories) should help a lot with getting the votes/population needed for backdoor....
We cannot bulb on Gunpowder because Machinery, Optics, Astronomy and Scientific Method all come before Gunpowder.
Gunpowder 2691 / 140 = 19.2
===> 34 + 20 + 38 + 19 = 111 turns
We can however bulb 1 scientist on Chemistry, IF we have researched Printing Press.
Chemistry 4036 - 2400 = 1636 / 140 = 11.7
Burning only 2 scientist this time, which is pretty easy to get (only need St. Petes really) inside of 111 + 10 = 121 turns.
Potentially we could also burn 3 GS in that period of time (add 1 on Printing Press) saving ~17 turns.
If we skip Compass and Optics for a save of 13 turns. We have 107 turns to get 3 GS, which should be easy doable with 2 cities as well.
This means we could have chemistry in 107 turns from now, add Liberalism to this and we have Cannons inside of 130 turns from now with Steel as the Freebee.
On a goal for a Merchant, should we want to spawn one.... A merchant gives 1560 beakers
Banking (1569) => Economics (3139) => Paper (1345) => Monarchy (672) => Guilds (2242) => Printing Press (3588)
Banking, Guilds and Printing Press seem to make nice targets for him if we want to burn him. Or we can settle him someplace....
I added Scientific Method which I appearently skipped over for the Great Scientist.
For easy reference I will post links to these posts of mine every once in a while:
Long term goals
Cities
Techtree/beeline/GPs Edit
Wonders
Research times
GP generation
We have the following techs to research
Currency 603 beakers left will take 9 turns (56 beakers/turn * 1.2 = 67 beakers/turn)
---> Add 5*2 commerce for having currency, 66 * 1.2 = 79
Metal casting 1008/79 = 12.75 turns
---> Add Library in Moscow + 5 beakers
---> Add City E, 8 commerce traderoutes + 5 for the gems = 13.
---> Add gems in Yaroslavl + 5 commerce
===> 66 + 23 = 99 * 1.2 = 118
Civil Service 1794 - 1560 (Merchant) = 234 / 118 = 2.0
---> add 2 scientists in St. Petes?? + 7 beakers
---> Add 10 commerce in Moscow for Burocracy + 2 from the library
===> 118 + 7 + 12 = 137 * 1.2 = 164
Machinery 1569 / 164 = 9.6 Macemen
========
To get to macemen 9 + 12.75 + 2.0 + 9.6 = 33.35 turns from now (i.e. turn ~174).
Or if we think this is to early (can that be?), we can delay this by some turns easy by researching Compass. If we feel we need even more time add in Paper => Education into the route.
Meanwhile we can stockpile some Axemen ~10? that we can upgrade... We will need some 100 gold per Axe to upgrade!
Or we can start the war with Axemen and Catapults, upgrading the Axemen with the Pillage money from
1) Capturing cities (> 100 gold per city = 1 upgrade per city)
2) Any unwanted/unneeded Cottages/Hamletts/Villages??/Towns???
This way we only promote like CR2 Axemen to Macemen. Tho... how likely is a Mace to fall to a (protective) archer in a city without cultural defence?
---> Add Gems in "E" and Rostov + 10 commerce = 147 * 1.2 = 176
Compass 897 / 176 = 5.1
Optics 1345 / 176 = 7.7
====> ETA Optics 34 + 13 = 47 (in contrary to 55-60 I had previously)
Paper 1345 / 176 = 7.7
====> Total 13 + 7 = 20 turns
---> Drop to 80% science, 147 * 80% = 117 * 1.2 = 140
Education 4036 - 2400 = 1636 / 140 = 11.7
Printing Press 3588 / 140 = 25.6
====> Total 38 turns
Astronomy 4485 - 2400 = 2085 / 140 = 14.9
Liberalism 3139 / 140 = 22.4
So on a very lose and slow estimate 34 + 20 + 38 + 15 + 22 = 129 turns to Liberalism in which time we would have to have 4 GS, 2 allready burned. 2 to burn on Scientific Method.
Accoording to my estimates on GP generation getting 4 GS will take 126 turns with 2 cities running 2 scientists. In other words we will have to start ASAP, or get more GP points (Caste/Pacifism) if we want to try for the Physics freebee.
However, if we take into account that beelining may not be a wise thing to do... How about we try to shoot for Steel (6279) to be the free tech ??
Early Grenadiers + Cannons (No astronomy = No Frigats and No Observatories) should help a lot with getting the votes/population needed for backdoor....
We cannot bulb on Gunpowder because Machinery, Optics, Astronomy and Scientific Method all come before Gunpowder.
Gunpowder 2691 / 140 = 19.2
===> 34 + 20 + 38 + 19 = 111 turns
We can however bulb 1 scientist on Chemistry, IF we have researched Printing Press.
Chemistry 4036 - 2400 = 1636 / 140 = 11.7
Burning only 2 scientist this time, which is pretty easy to get (only need St. Petes really) inside of 111 + 10 = 121 turns.
Potentially we could also burn 3 GS in that period of time (add 1 on Printing Press) saving ~17 turns.
If we skip Compass and Optics for a save of 13 turns. We have 107 turns to get 3 GS, which should be easy doable with 2 cities as well.
This means we could have chemistry in 107 turns from now, add Liberalism to this and we have Cannons inside of 130 turns from now with Steel as the Freebee.
On a goal for a Merchant, should we want to spawn one.... A merchant gives 1560 beakers
Banking (1569) => Economics (3139) => Paper (1345) => Monarchy (672) => Guilds (2242) => Printing Press (3588)
Banking, Guilds and Printing Press seem to make nice targets for him if we want to burn him. Or we can settle him someplace....
namliaM
Deity
@Bob, is that your way of sayin: I like the freebee of Steel?
@Scowler, looking forward to it....
Offcourse the shortest route to Chemistry:
Guilds (2242)
Gunpowder (2691)
Chemistry (4036)
And if we dont have Paper => A scientist will bulb on Chemistry
Paper + (bulbed) PP + (bulbed) education = 1345 + 1088 + 1536 = 3969 vs Guilds (2242)
This route is way cheaper in beaker count => Research time
After this we go Paper => Education (Burn a scientist) => Liberalism
Only downside, we cannot trade maps untill later.... If indeed we are blocked by way of galley trading/buying maps might get us there.
However if we go Paper => Education we can most likely trade for Guilds and Gunpowder. Taking away Gunpowder from the Paper => Education => PP => Chemistry path will only make it 3969 - 2691 = 1278, which then is cheaper IF we indeed can trade for Gunpowder.
@Scowler, looking forward to it....
Offcourse the shortest route to Chemistry:
Guilds (2242)
Gunpowder (2691)
Chemistry (4036)
And if we dont have Paper => A scientist will bulb on Chemistry
Paper + (bulbed) PP + (bulbed) education = 1345 + 1088 + 1536 = 3969 vs Guilds (2242)
This route is way cheaper in beaker count => Research time
After this we go Paper => Education (Burn a scientist) => Liberalism
Only downside, we cannot trade maps untill later.... If indeed we are blocked by way of galley trading/buying maps might get us there.
However if we go Paper => Education we can most likely trade for Guilds and Gunpowder. Taking away Gunpowder from the Paper => Education => PP => Chemistry path will only make it 3969 - 2691 = 1278, which then is cheaper IF we indeed can trade for Gunpowder.
I played 19 rather than 20 turns, but we'll discuss that later...
140.
- Citizen at Yaroslavl is moved from coast to the rice
- The Barracks at Moscow is changed to a Scout, which will then be sent off on a galley to explore, and hopefully locate the Pyramids.
- Citizen at St. Pete is switched from the forest to the clam to improve growth (also keeps Currency at 9 after MM-ing at Yaro)
- The worker currently farming the rice at Yaro is ordered to chop the jungle there first instead, making extra food available more quickly.
141.
- Mansa offers us OB. It seems safe enough, but it is always tricky knowing the exact diplomatic situation when so many civs (including Mansa himself!) are still lurking somewhere under the fog.
- St. Pete: Granary -> Workboat (intended for Novgorod, and should be built and in position by the time the borders there pop to cover the fish)
- The worker at Novgorod begins chopping the jungle on the gems tile, so that food (and growth) will be available more quickly.
- The western galley continues on its way; the one near Yaroslavl heads towards Hatty's territory as planned, with intention of exploring further east.
- England is still the only other nation with Alphabet, so I don't bother doing any trading just yet, but I'll keep checking to see if Vicky starts spreading it about.
142.
- Novgorod: Monument -> Granary
- There doesn't appear to be a passage further west near the English territory, and backtracking to the north only leads to Toku who is unlikely to let us through, so I tell the galley to follow the English coast round to the east, where it uncovers Vicky's size 13(!) capital:
143.
- The Saladman decides to put a price on friendship: Mathematics! At the moment Julius considers us his worst enemy (thanks to a -3 trading malus), and since I don't know where he is I decide to give in rather than risk a war, which would be annoying despite the AI's apparent limitations on these maps. This improves relations to Cautious.
- Next, JC converts to Judaism
- Parthenon BIFAL
- Moscow: Scout -> Galley
144.
- Vicky switches to Organised Religion
145.
- Alex appears at our borders with a trireme and asks for OB. I decide to turn him down as I don't want him snooping around and discovering how pitiful our defenses are. We'll certainly be wanting OB with him later so that we can scout his territory and locate Mao and the Pyramids, but this will be at a time that suits us, not him!
146.
147.
148.
- We've finally located the Romans, just south of India:
We also meet another "old friend", just to the east of Egypt:
Unfortunately, this -4 from trading (with Mansa?) means that he won't open borders with us and his territory appears to be block the way forward for the galley. It looks like it will have to backtrack and try to find a way east around the north of Egypt instead.
149.
- Currency -> Metal Casting. As agreed, the GM will remain in hibernation until we can use him to research Civil Service.
- Moscow will grow to size 6 (and unhappiness) next turn so I switch from the galley to a Library for 1 turn of production, with the intention of whipping it for 3 population next turn.
- Alex converts to Judaism: it looks like he, Julius, and Mao are forming a religious "axis of evil" that we will need to stamp out.
- There still haven't been any significant changes on the tech front: Alphabet remains undiscovered by anybody else. However, Mansa now has CoL and he is willing to consider trading it so I dial him up to see what he wants for it:
Tight-fisted bastard...
I decide to continue waiting for a better deal; maybe somebody else (Vicky) will get CoL, dropping the price?
150.
- Library (13 hammers invested) whipped at Moscow for 3 pop; overflow will go to finish the galley
- Yaroslavl has grown to size 2 so the Monument in production is now whipped
- Oh, and Vicky offers us the deal of the century (no, I didn't accept it!):
151.
- Monument completed at Yaroslavl: a Granary is now started, with the overflow being boosted to 32 hammers by the Expansive bonus
- Mansa now has Currency ... so much for getting CoL from him...
152.
- Vicky now has CoL as well, so I offer her Currency for it, but she too turns it down. Grrr.
- Alex is persuaded to OB so that our new galley with the scout on board can be let into his territory. (Another galley has been started with the remaining 18-hammer overflow)
- We also OB with Julius for the same reason: our other galley needs right of passage.
- Our iron resource is now online
- Gems are also now online, giving +1 happy in all cities
- We've reached the point where we need more money if we are going to continue researching at 100%. I have a look to see what's on offer and decide to make the following trade with Mao - it offers the best deal and the least likelihood of the tech being passed on to others:
This should allow us to continue at maximum science for a while longer
153.
- Somebody somewhere has popped a Great Prophet...
- St. Pete: Workboat is finished, so it heads off towards Novgorod. Another Workboat is started, this one intended for Yaroslavl.
- Rostov grows to size 2 so the Workboat there is whipped.
- I make another trade, this time with Alex to get some more money (and also to unlock Monarchy in case we decide we want it):
154.
- Christianity founded in a distant land...
- I start chopping a forest at St. Pete: the city will grow to size 6 next turn and I'll then be switching production to a Settler for 1 turn. The 44 hammers from the chop will come in at the same time and the Settler can be whipped for 3 population with the overflow going back into the partially-constructed workboat.
- Workboat ready at Rostov, so it hooks up the fish resource there. 18-hammer overflow put into a Monument.
155.
- HC demands that we stop trading with Mansa. Hmmm... well, Mansa is an understanding guy and HC is already ticked off with us so I agree.
- Gandhi is now willing to trade us Calendar, but obviously this would be a bad idea at the moment as it would neutralise our Monuments.
- I sell Agriculture to JC for 60g
156.
- Novgorod: Granary -> Lighthouse
- St. Pete: Settler whipped for 3 pop as planned
157.
- Another Gt Prophet BIFAL
- St. Pete: Settler completed (and sent off towards Site E); 47 overflow put back into Workboat
- We've found Mali: just to the NW of Egypt.
- More importantly, we've also found China, so the scout is off-loaded for a better look while the galley continues east:
158.
- Mao demands Currency - er... I think not!
- St. Pete: Workboat -> Library (with 13 overflow)
159.
The final turn of my set brings good news and bad news.
First the good news:
- Hinduism spreads to Rostov - the faith shared by Gandhi, Vicky, and... Toku
- Metal Casting is due next turn
- Settler is on his way to site E
- We've located the Pyramids!:
Now for the bad news. Some people just have too much time on their hands...
Unfortunately, he has brought a stack of 2 triremes and 2 galleys, which we can't really defend against at the moment. I sent the Workboat that was travelling up to Yaroslavl back into St. Pete for safety. But our other sea resources are more or less defenseless. So I stopped here so we can plot our revenge on the backstabber.
SAVE
140.
- Citizen at Yaroslavl is moved from coast to the rice
- The Barracks at Moscow is changed to a Scout, which will then be sent off on a galley to explore, and hopefully locate the Pyramids.
- Citizen at St. Pete is switched from the forest to the clam to improve growth (also keeps Currency at 9 after MM-ing at Yaro)
- The worker currently farming the rice at Yaro is ordered to chop the jungle there first instead, making extra food available more quickly.
141.
- Mansa offers us OB. It seems safe enough, but it is always tricky knowing the exact diplomatic situation when so many civs (including Mansa himself!) are still lurking somewhere under the fog.
- St. Pete: Granary -> Workboat (intended for Novgorod, and should be built and in position by the time the borders there pop to cover the fish)
- The worker at Novgorod begins chopping the jungle on the gems tile, so that food (and growth) will be available more quickly.
- The western galley continues on its way; the one near Yaroslavl heads towards Hatty's territory as planned, with intention of exploring further east.
- England is still the only other nation with Alphabet, so I don't bother doing any trading just yet, but I'll keep checking to see if Vicky starts spreading it about.
142.
- Novgorod: Monument -> Granary
- There doesn't appear to be a passage further west near the English territory, and backtracking to the north only leads to Toku who is unlikely to let us through, so I tell the galley to follow the English coast round to the east, where it uncovers Vicky's size 13(!) capital:
143.
- The Saladman decides to put a price on friendship: Mathematics! At the moment Julius considers us his worst enemy (thanks to a -3 trading malus), and since I don't know where he is I decide to give in rather than risk a war, which would be annoying despite the AI's apparent limitations on these maps. This improves relations to Cautious.
- Next, JC converts to Judaism
- Parthenon BIFAL
- Moscow: Scout -> Galley
144.
- Vicky switches to Organised Religion
145.
- Alex appears at our borders with a trireme and asks for OB. I decide to turn him down as I don't want him snooping around and discovering how pitiful our defenses are. We'll certainly be wanting OB with him later so that we can scout his territory and locate Mao and the Pyramids, but this will be at a time that suits us, not him!
146.
147.
148.
- We've finally located the Romans, just south of India:
We also meet another "old friend", just to the east of Egypt:
Unfortunately, this -4 from trading (with Mansa?) means that he won't open borders with us and his territory appears to be block the way forward for the galley. It looks like it will have to backtrack and try to find a way east around the north of Egypt instead.
149.
- Currency -> Metal Casting. As agreed, the GM will remain in hibernation until we can use him to research Civil Service.
- Moscow will grow to size 6 (and unhappiness) next turn so I switch from the galley to a Library for 1 turn of production, with the intention of whipping it for 3 population next turn.
- Alex converts to Judaism: it looks like he, Julius, and Mao are forming a religious "axis of evil" that we will need to stamp out.
- There still haven't been any significant changes on the tech front: Alphabet remains undiscovered by anybody else. However, Mansa now has CoL and he is willing to consider trading it so I dial him up to see what he wants for it:
Tight-fisted bastard...
I decide to continue waiting for a better deal; maybe somebody else (Vicky) will get CoL, dropping the price?
150.
- Library (13 hammers invested) whipped at Moscow for 3 pop; overflow will go to finish the galley
- Yaroslavl has grown to size 2 so the Monument in production is now whipped
- Oh, and Vicky offers us the deal of the century (no, I didn't accept it!):
151.
- Monument completed at Yaroslavl: a Granary is now started, with the overflow being boosted to 32 hammers by the Expansive bonus
- Mansa now has Currency ... so much for getting CoL from him...
152.
- Vicky now has CoL as well, so I offer her Currency for it, but she too turns it down. Grrr.
- Alex is persuaded to OB so that our new galley with the scout on board can be let into his territory. (Another galley has been started with the remaining 18-hammer overflow)
- We also OB with Julius for the same reason: our other galley needs right of passage.
- Our iron resource is now online
- Gems are also now online, giving +1 happy in all cities
- We've reached the point where we need more money if we are going to continue researching at 100%. I have a look to see what's on offer and decide to make the following trade with Mao - it offers the best deal and the least likelihood of the tech being passed on to others:
This should allow us to continue at maximum science for a while longer
153.
- Somebody somewhere has popped a Great Prophet...
- St. Pete: Workboat is finished, so it heads off towards Novgorod. Another Workboat is started, this one intended for Yaroslavl.
- Rostov grows to size 2 so the Workboat there is whipped.
- I make another trade, this time with Alex to get some more money (and also to unlock Monarchy in case we decide we want it):
154.
- Christianity founded in a distant land...
- I start chopping a forest at St. Pete: the city will grow to size 6 next turn and I'll then be switching production to a Settler for 1 turn. The 44 hammers from the chop will come in at the same time and the Settler can be whipped for 3 population with the overflow going back into the partially-constructed workboat.
- Workboat ready at Rostov, so it hooks up the fish resource there. 18-hammer overflow put into a Monument.
155.
- HC demands that we stop trading with Mansa. Hmmm... well, Mansa is an understanding guy and HC is already ticked off with us so I agree.
- Gandhi is now willing to trade us Calendar, but obviously this would be a bad idea at the moment as it would neutralise our Monuments.
- I sell Agriculture to JC for 60g
156.
- Novgorod: Granary -> Lighthouse
- St. Pete: Settler whipped for 3 pop as planned
157.
- Another Gt Prophet BIFAL
- St. Pete: Settler completed (and sent off towards Site E); 47 overflow put back into Workboat
- We've found Mali: just to the NW of Egypt.
- More importantly, we've also found China, so the scout is off-loaded for a better look while the galley continues east:
158.
- Mao demands Currency - er... I think not!
- St. Pete: Workboat -> Library (with 13 overflow)
159.
The final turn of my set brings good news and bad news.
First the good news:
- Hinduism spreads to Rostov - the faith shared by Gandhi, Vicky, and... Toku
- Metal Casting is due next turn
- Settler is on his way to site E
- We've located the Pyramids!:
Now for the bad news. Some people just have too much time on their hands...
Unfortunately, he has brought a stack of 2 triremes and 2 galleys, which we can't really defend against at the moment. I sent the Workboat that was travelling up to Yaroslavl back into St. Pete for safety. But our other sea resources are more or less defenseless. So I stopped here so we can plot our revenge on the backstabber.
SAVE
Spoiler log :
GreyFox
Make it so ...
I hate the change where they hide the cargo of a transport vessel. 
I hope we have some axes for show ... else ... better get those whips out.
Nice exploration and trading ... but one thing I don't understand is why agree to HC when he is ticked off at us??? I wouldn't do that ... I would stick to agreeing with those who are pleased with us and middle-finger-saluting those who are annoyed at us.
Roster
namliaM == On Deck
Dot
Greyfox
Bobrath
Scowler == Just Played (with Alex)
Cosmic == UP for some military boost
RoboKai, FuRRie == Autoskip
Frankcor == Audience
--
I hope we have some axes for show ... else ... better get those whips out.
Nice exploration and trading ... but one thing I don't understand is why agree to HC when he is ticked off at us??? I wouldn't do that ... I would stick to agreeing with those who are pleased with us and middle-finger-saluting those who are annoyed at us.
Roster
namliaM == On Deck
Dot
Greyfox
Bobrath
Scowler == Just Played (with Alex)
Cosmic == UP for some military boost
RoboKai, FuRRie == Autoskip
Frankcor == Audience
--
namliaM
Deity
Alphabet => Poly + 230g
Poly => Priesthood + 110g
That sure gives us a good bang for our Alphabet buck
Priesthood is good as it allows us Temples as well
Mansa generaly is a tech AI => Will be a nice trading party?
OK So we are at war with Alex... Tho technicaly he didnt really backstab us this time... I really just love to hate this guy !!! His timing is perfect. If he waits 10 more turns we are ready for him... right now we are not
Good execution of the plan Scowler and very nice very detailed log!
That worker on the hill, has that done its turn allready ??? i.e. is there a good chance we lose it?
There is a good chance there are units on board that we will not be able to defend against as all we have are Warriors !
Good news I think is we can have some training against Alex (if we survive it)
Bad news:
The nets are sure to be gonners, meaning we wont be able to work the hills.
We have NO defence
Mao will probably not declare war on his "brother of the faith".
*darnation*
Why couldnt he have waited just 10 more turns???
Will have to
the save for more detailed info
Poly => Priesthood + 110g
That sure gives us a good bang for our Alphabet buck
Priesthood is good as it allows us Temples as well
I think I agree with Greyfox, I think its better to keep the "good happy" AI to one side and the "angry bad (Judaist?)" AI to the other.scowler said:
Mansa generaly is a tech AI => Will be a nice trading party?
Actually once build they go obsoleet, should continue to produce culture... One just cannot build them anymore.Scowler said:
Great that is city #2 with Hinduism (St. Petes has it as well) Should we switch to it as a state religion... (at the request of some AI) thats nice...scowler said:
Wow that is early! 11 turns only? I had guestimated that at 13 turns (atleast!)scowler said:
OK So we are at war with Alex... Tho technicaly he didnt really backstab us this time... I really just love to hate this guy !!! His timing is perfect. If he waits 10 more turns we are ready for him... right now we are not
Good execution of the plan Scowler and very nice very detailed log!
That worker on the hill, has that done its turn allready ??? i.e. is there a good chance we lose it?
There is a good chance there are units on board that we will not be able to defend against as all we have are Warriors !
Good news I think is we can have some training against Alex (if we survive it)
Bad news:
The nets are sure to be gonners, meaning we wont be able to work the hills
.We have NO defence
Mao will probably not declare war on his "brother of the faith".
*darnation*
Why couldnt he have waited just 10 more turns???
Will have to
the save for more detailed info
bobrath
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,238
Nice work - I was a little concerned about our naval emphasis - had to keep reminding myself that this is a navy heavy map. Course now I wish I'd maybe kicked in a little bit of protective hardware!
My intent in starting the barracks in Moscow was so that when we "needed" experienced units we'd be able to produce them without waiting for a barracks to build.... hope our galley/scout storm didn't lose us too many hammers.
With so many negative to us AIs out there, we can't afford to be as defenseless from here on out. This war is going to hurt - esp with JC sure to jump on us in the near future.
@namliam - my mention of needing Sailing was not asking for Steel as much as predicting the possibility that caravels can ensure we get the circumnavigation bonus that makes a huge difference on this map.
My intent in starting the barracks in Moscow was so that when we "needed" experienced units we'd be able to produce them without waiting for a barracks to build.... hope our galley/scout storm didn't lose us too many hammers.
With so many negative to us AIs out there, we can't afford to be as defenseless from here on out. This war is going to hurt - esp with JC sure to jump on us in the near future.
@namliam - my mention of needing Sailing was not asking for Steel as much as predicting the possibility that caravels can ensure we get the circumnavigation bonus that makes a huge difference on this map.
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Me too!!!!!!
Perhaps turning off science for a few turns and upgrade our warriors to axes. He can't have much on board so I am not too worried about it. Personally I do defend cities better but that seems to be a CFC thing leave just a warrior in the city. It's probably why he is attacking as we are as weak as a kitten. meow.....
My favourite gameplan simple. "Bashing heads" and once we get some units/tiremes/(if we have the tech for it)then we go after him. He will now from this point keep at us so if we just settle for peace without giving him a bloody nose he will persist. Since the iron is hooked up too we can get a few swords out too. Perhaps after CS get machinery as with maces we could already rule I am sure. It would give us some time to prepare for Mao as well so Alex just accelerated our plans to getting the mids.
I very much enjoyed your report Scowler and I feel you accomplished a lot. The war is just a method to get experienced units. LOL Thanks Alex appreciate it. Knew you would live up to your reputation. So now I won't have to play with an excel sheet just bash heads. Aaaahhhh that's more like it. Excel sheets give me pain in the head. Too much thinking brain hurts. Need many, many tylenols. Simple man just like to bash heads like cave man. UUUUGGGGG UUUUUGGGGGGG
Could play later today so would like to hear what the strategist is going to suggest. I think the plan is simple whip lots of axes/swords and maybe spears if needed.
Time for battle.
We will need to redirect our focus now to dealing with Alex. What sometimes happens on warlords is that another AI will join in at some point so we should get some kind of military.
namliaM
Deity
Hmz, yes now you are right... In my test game(s) I was the one to declare war and in my head I never even took into account that an AI might do so before we wanted to...bobrath said:
Offcourse the Galleys do make a dent, 150 hammers for 2 galleys = 3 axemen.
Tho with the Iron beeing hooked up all of 7 turns, I doubt it would have made a real difference. The first Axe may just have finished.
Caravels can also ensure our galleys make it accross the narrow straights and back safely...bobrath said:
So a beeline (I think I agree) is not a good idea, Steel is that a better idea? Or what is a good idea (not straying to far from the line to UN?)??
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Had a look at the save and was going to bash some heads but with what? Alex has at least 4 something heading our way. We can upgrade the warrior to axe and the one in St. Petes but that would leave it ungarrisoned. We also have two cities with no garrisons?? Being so weak just puts a bullseye on our forehead. And this sign "please attack me I am defenseless".
Most of our cities are in no position to provide troops of any kind yet. Moscow and the copper city are our best hope for an army and like namliaM says once the fishnets are gone Moscow can't work hill.
First we need to have some troops to deal with his invasion. Secondly we need some tiremes to protect our sea resources. Third we need a lot more workers to speed up the growth of the cities. What I am afraid may happen is we loose two workers working the jungle hill. Alex's ship is just off the coast and if I were him would go for the jungle hill to land on. That means he will take our workers if he decides. (they cannot move until the next turn so checked it already)
We certainly can trade for the following:
Calender (mao will for currency)
Monotheism with hatty or Julius. (Julius is cautious with us it HC/Toku are annoyed)
We can get Meditation but we are blocking that for philosophy.
Here's my concern we have very little in the way of getting a quick military. Upgrading the current ones will help but in the immediate area there is only one. Bring down the warrior from new settler site and use him too. He's too far away to do any good. St. Petes is the only other and that leaves it with no garrison.
Most of our cities are in no position to provide troops of any kind yet. Moscow and the copper city are our best hope for an army and like namliaM says once the fishnets are gone Moscow can't work hill.
First we need to have some troops to deal with his invasion. Secondly we need some tiremes to protect our sea resources. Third we need a lot more workers to speed up the growth of the cities. What I am afraid may happen is we loose two workers working the jungle hill. Alex's ship is just off the coast and if I were him would go for the jungle hill to land on. That means he will take our workers if he decides. (they cannot move until the next turn so checked it already)
We certainly can trade for the following:
Calender (mao will for currency)
Monotheism with hatty or Julius. (Julius is cautious with us it HC/Toku are annoyed)
We can get Meditation but we are blocking that for philosophy.
Here's my concern we have very little in the way of getting a quick military. Upgrading the current ones will help but in the immediate area there is only one. Bring down the warrior from new settler site and use him too. He's too far away to do any good. St. Petes is the only other and that leaves it with no garrison.
If Alex is bringing two Galleys, and you must assume they are loaded to capacity, you'd better have 2 units defending Moscow. That means St. Pete has to go ungarrisoned for now if you don't want to whip Moscow -- you have no other choice that I can see.
Oh wait -- can those Galleys reach St. Pete? You may be screwed if you can't tell which direction Alex is heading. You'll have to defend both cities at once.
Whip it good.
Oh wait -- can those Galleys reach St. Pete? You may be screwed if you can't tell which direction Alex is heading. You'll have to defend both cities at once.
Whip it good.
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