I think colossus is to short a livespan .... It expires with Astronomy...
After optics (~4 turns left?) we can pretty much pick up Astronomy anytime...
Probable we will pick up Paper (7-ish turns), Education (10 + 1 GS) and PP (25, no GS) before then...
So Astronomy (true on a relative beeline) is about 45 turns away?? + Research time for Astronomy ~15 turns + 1 GS = 60 turns. Minus the 9 needed to build it = 50 turns of benifit...
At about 10 gpt (IIRC I estimated the gain for the Colossus to be), that is 500 coins/beakers. Bringing astronomy 5 turns earlier.
Offcourse we could plan around Astronomy but that means no Frigates (IIRC)
Also if we plan in Gunpowder (19) and (in particular) Chemistry (10 + 1 GS) ... we add 30 turns to that...
Personaly I find Colossus overall somewhat underwhelming and if we are going for backdoor... we need to get started on military ASAP I think.
Think again -- in war, unless you have superior production facility, often you rely on better units. The way to get superior units is to research faster. Long term wise colossus is not worth it, but the real deal about Colossus is it gives you the needed research right now. The boost in research by colossus is very helpful ... I think namliam says it will in fact bring Astronomy in earlier by 5 turns.
That is not to say that I think we should build the Colossus. I agree to military build as well. What I am saying is, I would not object if bobrath feels that colossus is worth it. It is definitely worth the hammers on an archipelago map ... however short-lived it may be.
Appreciate all the input on the big tall bronze guy. Ended up getting a passle of guys carrying spiked metal balls on the ends of chains instead. Also manned our first caravel and he's sailing out to prove the is no end to our world, merely another begining.
Started off my turns and Mansa came offering to give us Feud in exchange for CS and 170g... In a recurring theme, I said "No". Novogorod finished its forge and started on some Barracks, and per request Rostov's lighthouse was built on the back of slaves.
Next year, Tok wanted us to cancel all our deals with Hatty... Demanding little cuss isn't he? "No" was my reply. Alex asked for open borders.... and I gave it to him - I think I was hoping it would get some of his tiremes home instead of near our nets. Feel free to cancel at whim. Yarsolavl' went from completing a Granary to builting a library and Rostov's lighthouse completed and spawned a granary. I picked up 330g from Hatty for Metal Casting - could have had meditation as well... but some little fairy reminded me that there was a good reason why every civ but us had researched that little tombstone. Also traded Fur for Clams with Mansa.
Cottageville finished making an archer defender and also began working on a library.
In 410, Novgorod'd barracks finshed and we started building an impressive army of macemen. (7 turns to complete a mace here).
The very next turn, our chopping workers helped Moscow complete it's forge and as has been mentioned, I decided to just crank Military out. With the trades open to us, We can sell certain techs to gold rich nations and maintain our 100% research rate (never dropped it during my turns).
Once again, an AI - this time Hatty - came offering to teach us Feudalism in exchange for CS and 200g - "No"
In 470, HC asked for some help in giving him CoL for free... "No", but I did sell it to him for 170g instead! Optics came in and I directed our wise men to start researching Paper - they told me it would take 8 turns. Oh... and Alex converted to Judaism
To continue our powerful high rate of research, I sold Calendar to Monty for 90g AND got us open borders with him. Our eastern galley reached Aztec lands in my last turn. I also have OB with Mansa and we have another galley on the western Malinese shore. Our lone caravel is just now passing the northern end of our land to venture out NW to chart new lands and waters and maximize our chance of circumnavigating.
I also reposititioned one Galley to jsut SW of Novgorod to let maces take 3 turns to reach Moscow instead of walking there in 9.
In my final turn, we discovered Paper and I've told our wisemen to look into PrintingPress (18 turns). Feel free to change this up and the spillover beakers will go into whatever other tech we wish.
Treasury is 462g running 100$ research @ -36gpt. The next player may want to consider burning some of our treasury to buy world maps. Vicky will sell hers to us for 20g. If we can pick up the folks along our known world edges, we'll improve our chances at circumnavigating.
We have a monopoly on Paper and Optics right now - which means if we are careful about trading, we can make a pretty nifty profit in both techs and gold.
We have 3 built maces right now, with 2 more very close to completion. I did not apply the whip very heavily - mainly trying not to get too much unhappy in our cities. Perhaps that's not optimal. I'm sure the next player has many chances for applying the AND microing the snot out of our cities. I tried to balance growth and building in Cottagville and its neighbor sharing the Rice. Both are set to grow in 3 turns IIRC.
Turn 197 (455 AD) Moscow begins: Maceman Rostov begins: Library Tech learned: Optics Novgorod grows: 5 Yaroslavl' grows: 6 Islam founded in a distant land
Turn 198 (470 AD) Research begun: Paper Moscow grows: 8
Turn 199 (485 AD) Moscow finishes: Maceman
Turn 200 (500 AD) Moscow begins: Caravel St. Petersburg grows: 7 Novgorod finishes: Maceman Confucianism has spread: Novgorod Yaroslavl' grows: 7 Cottage Ville grows: 2
Turn 196, 440 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Rostov. Work has now begun on a Hindu Temple.
Turn 196, 440 AD: Sojourner Truth (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 197, 455 AD: You have discovered Optics!
Turn 197, 455 AD: Rosalind Franklin (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 197, 455 AD: Islam has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 197, 455 AD: Alexander converts to Judaism!
Turn 199, 485 AD: Frederick adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Confucianism has spread in Novgorod.
Turn 200, 500 AD: Alexander adopts Vassalage!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Alexander adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 202, 530 AD: Cyrus adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 202, 530 AD: Cyrus adopts Vassalage!
Turn 202, 530 AD: Mansa Musa adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 203, 545 AD: Tsongkhapa (Great Prophet) has been born in London (Victoria)!
We need some siege (cats and trebs) to go alone with the maces. In fact, Trebs at this stage are so insanely overpowered that it is silly not to bring them.
We are still planning on hitting "the Hopeless", right? Or are we actually going after "the Great"?
Roster
-- namliaM ==
-- Bobrath == played -- Greyfox == UP (for last turnset of the year) [Note 1]
-- Robo Kai
-- Dot == On Deck (for New Year)
-- Scowler
-- Cosmic
[Note 1] it seems I have problem access some sites at home, but no prob in office. Seeing today is my last working day for this year, I'll see if I can play by tonight in office. Else I will swap with Dot.
Trebs = Engineering... I think I agree tho that we want them.... Also we need engineering for Chemistry.
Engineering + Education are I think the 2 most important techs.
Education we get our Universities and we need it out of the way for Astronomy.
Trebs, thus Engineering is giving us a military edge again. My vote goes for Engineering => Education => PP => (trade for) Guilds => (trade for) Gunpowder => Chemistry
Meanwhile we can burn the Merchant we are going to get for Banking?
xNay on buying the maps.... Get them in added value for selling techs for Gold (+ Maps) Why spend valuable gold on buying them when we have beakers??
Sounds like a nice quiet builders set Bob... With 5 macemen we need to add some (5?) Siege and I think with reinforcements comming we can start loading our units on to Grina (Greek / China lands) to start the infasion.
My thinking on 5 siege is, you need 7 to kill the city defence in 1 turn. With 5 we can get the defence down on turn 1 and 2, then (if needed) suicide a Cata or Treb, maybe 2. Then take the city.
Offcourse we need to replace them Cata... and maybe add more Macemen in the long term....
Which is our target? Is that still Alex for the target practice? Or are we going straight for Mao?
(We had best bring some more Cata for Mao I think)
The biggest reason (IMHO) for buying cheap maps now is to give us the best possible chance at the circumnavigation bonus. Yes if we've already fully tracked someone's borders then the actual bonus is minimal as they won't have been able to get any farther then us. I would *not* trade our map away. From the relations screen, its easy to see we've explored far more of the world then anyone else.
So I'd only bargain with AIs that have borders we haven't found the end of. Course Tok is one of them and he won't ever sell that to us... love xenophobes.
I obviously have not played ... but I tried and can access photobuckets and CFC with no problems ( albeit slow, but much better than last 3 days). SO, I will play tomorrow morning, and dot can pick it up during his weekend.
I've looked at the save though. I agree with bob buying maps is good, but not from vicky. As far as I can see, we have explored the perimeter of vicky's island, and I doubt her map will offer us anything.
I also agree with namliaM to switch research to Engineering. I estimate Dot should be able to declare during his turns. For mine, I will build us some cats, and maybe one or two more ships if possible to ensure our reign in the sea.
I would also likely be adding a worker (most probably whipped for hammer overflow) ... we have 1/2 priced workers, might as well make use of it, and there is a lot of jungles to clear, and gems to connect.
I did try to have our current workforce tasked on clearing key pieces of jungle - helps with the chopping of buildings and improves the land. 6 turns for one worker to chop a jungle currently.
We have one incense hooked up, but there's another in the south that we could add a plantation to in order to then trade it away for gpt or a needed resource. Pretty soon everyone that wants gems will be able to get them from us.
I do like Engineering as our next research target - PP has limited value to us since we have so few towns or villages - wait until we've got Mao's! PP will make for a nice trade bait tho to pick up numerous other techs.
Not sure who to hit first... in either case, use the OB agreement with Alex/Mao to prestage the troops for invading the other. Alex will hurt less for maint costs and we can resupply those forces faster with our 2 galley navy. Remember that one galley needs to hang out near Novogorod to dramatically shorten the path to the front - unless we're willing to devote multiple worker turns to completing the trans-island-footpath.
Great the game is moving again. Good turn there Bob and looking forward to your turnset Greyfox.
Boy we didn't even make it on the power scale?? mmmmmm
Yes I agree too that engineering is a good tech to get next. Those trebs are pretty powerful and the added road movement is nice too. Get our units faster to the front. I think we should hit Alex first to make way for the invasion to Mao. Since he is quite powerful I think we are going to need a lot more maces and perhaps some anti horse units. (spears). Make us a nice combo pack 5 maces/5 trebs/2 spears/2 archers (for garrison and protection on hills). I take we promoted the maces to raider so they need at least one with combat to fend off attackers along the way.
I love the smell of napalm in the morning.......battle is on the horizon.
We have one incense spice hooked up, but there's another in the south that we could add a plantation to in order to then trade it away for gpt or a needed resource. Pretty soon everyone that wants gems will be able to get them from us.
In general I dont like aiding happy to the AI even if we are getting happy in return ... Also in "general" terms we dont need those Spice' hooked up/"plantationed" (is that even a proper word?) cause it will take St.Petes a while to grow to where it needs the tile.
Maybe we can use one more worker on MR. But I really believe that 4 is more than enough..... Pretty soon we shall run out of things to do for our workers...
I like hitting Alex first for some target practice against those Protective Longbows (That is going to HURT plenty!)
Tho I like Mao cause we get the Mids sooner... Long run... I think Alex is the better target... +++++++ He declared on us allready.... Double check on Mao tho! Cause he is up to something ! We want 2 Caravels (atleast) to block that passage from Grina to MR.
I dont like buying maps for money when we are underselling our techs for measly pennies... Why not simply pick up them maps added in a tech sale instead of shelling out our hard earned cash?
I will down the save and have a look see if I can find anything worth putting on the boards...
No promotions done on any units during my turnset. I'm a big believer in leaving the promoting until the actual warring is done.
Does Mao actually have horse born units? I didn't see any during my turnsets and would hate to have otherwise useless spears built (unless you're planning on upgrading to pikemen when we get Engr)
OK so I had a look see.... Nice we are running 4 scientists ... 2 in Yaroslavl and 2 in Petes....
I wont go into the trades cause our trade master is at bat.... I did notice some GPT floating around
I tried to identify some "blocks" that are out there. Friends if you will...
Block 1: The Budists
Fredrick (+10) <> HC (+8)
HC (+10) <> Monty (+10)
Monty (+4) <> Fredrick (+ 4)
***********************
Block 2: The Judaists
Alexander (+4) <> Cyrus (+7)
Cyrus (+8) <> Mao (+9)
Mao (+7) <> Alexander (+9)
Mao (+7) <> JC (+7)
JC (+7) <> Alexander (+5)
JC (+3) <> Cyrus (+3)
***********************
Block 3: Confused folks
Mansa Munsa (+11) <> Hathy (+13) ==> These two are about to get married
***********************
Block 4: Hindu
Gandhi (+8) <> Victoria (+9)
Victoria () <> Toku ()
Toku () <> Gandhi ()
***********************
Our "friends"
+7 Hathy
+7 JC *ack*?? (-2 for war on Alex + Mao)
+6 HC
+4 Gandhi
+4 Monty
+3 Mao (as good as dead)
+3 Vicky
Maps, who has maps? Lets have a look at the globe as we know it....
Presumably the red lines mark spots where galleys => coastal routes end. And Ocean/Caravels start.
Looks like HC, Mansa and Hathy will have the maps for us that will be most usefull. I checked into buying maps which generaly gives a good idea of how much (new) information is on it...
Hathy, 150
Mansa, 100
HC, 90
Gandhi, 80 ==> Intresting!
Cyrus, 40
Mao + Vicky, 20 ==> Nada!
The other wont sell their maps to us... As to be expected Mansa, Hathy and HC have the most intresting maps... Vicky and Mao have near nothing on us that we dont allready know.
Gandhi is intresting tho... What could he have that we dont allready know, other than improvements of his lands....
Seeing as we have the galley up north and we can (hopefully) pick up Mansa/Hathy's map our galley can move off towards the west.
The Caravel just north of MR will if moving towards the North West (dotted line) probably meet up with the galley at one point or another.
So I suggest moving the Caravel south of Japan towards the west.
Some more intresting news....
Mao and Alex have some nice cash reserves but what is more important... Mao has both Compass and Machinery => Thus he has Chu-Ko-Nu's
Where did he get these techs so fast???????
Also more intresting stuff on China....
Mao has atleast 2 cities that we do not know off... Somewhere to the west or east of Grina...
Not much, just increased 2 gold per turn. A lot of AIs need our gems, and we should connect them asap to get our sales figures up.
Tech wise, we can only grab Feud and Mediation ... not worth spoiling our monopolies me think.
Made a trade with Gandhi:
And Mao had the audacity to ask for this trade:
"Your brain must be as small as the mole on your face ..."
World Exploration
We meet QSHKK ... (I'm still getting used to the face-swap). He is at noethwest of us.
[/center]
We meed Louis, forget where he was
Next is the Spanish Queen ...
As expected, she asked us to join Hinduism block.
I reject for now, but I really think we should join one of the blocs. It is the easiest way to secure some long term friends. It also simplify our diplomatic relationship ... need not think too much and remember who is a friend, who is an enemy, who is a friend of friend, who is an enemy of friend, who is a friend of enemy, who is an enemy of enemy, who is ... well you get the picture. Just look at their religions and we know. Plus we could use one of the religious civics.
Back to the exploration ... There is an interesting barb city near KK and Toku in the NW:
The east of HC happens to be a bay enclosed, and Sally was there, annoyed with us, blocking our passage.
There is also a barb city in the south east at Monty's island, just opposite Spain.
So, the only Civ we have yet meet is the American. Wondering if it is Roosy or Washy.
The caravel and the trireme have already passed each other longitudinally, so when the next player press enter, we should get our +1 ship movement bonus.
First, Monty declared on Hatty between 605AD~620AD. Next, Salad-man declared on Baldy
We also got the Great Merchant ... sleeping for now. Should lightbulb PP. For that research is set to PP after getting Engineering ...
Meanwhile, Taoism is FIADL, and Gandhi built the Hindu Shrine. Colossus was also BIAFL, so luckily I resisted the temptation.
I have whipped a worker for hammer overflow to a Harbor in Yaroslav. I think the hammer overflow is so great that we should do it once more. I disagree we have enough workers. Clearing a jungle takes 6 turns, building a mine takes 6 turns, building a road takes 3 turns. Most of our cities are so small or abundance with food that the growth rate out paces the worker's working rate ... thus some cities will be forced to work on unimproved land. Hence, I feel that we should use the hammer overflow from whipping workers to its best. If the team agrees, the copper city should stop building the treb, and switch to a worker instead, whipped at next turn, and we should end up getting a treb faster (currently, it takes 7 turns).
Now for the war involving us ....
I :smoked: into thinking we need one more galley ... so you see Moscow with one turn worth of hammer thrown into a galley. I later realized it is not necessary, and corrected the mistake.
Athens have elephant
How the hell did he get an elephant????
In any case, I started a spear which turn into a Pikeman in Moscow. 2 turns left.
And by the way, I played only 10. Why? Because it is my humble opinion that we can declare at the last of my turns, so I decided to stop right there and let the group discuss a bit.
I have been transporting our armies of maces to the unclaimed tile at the Chineek (Chinese-Greek) island. 2 cats are on a galley which can be unloaded immediately into greek's land, one tile away from the greek stone-city.
So if the team agrees on a war, the next player (Dot, I presume) should do the following even before pressing enter: (1) tell Alex where his head would look good on, (2) then unload the cats from the galley, and (3) move our maces to the same unloading spot. We could divert a mace to pillage the iron, but it is useless, since:
Turn 205 (575 AD) GreyFox: Upped clam to hatty for 2gpt to 3gpt GreyFox: Upped rice to JC for 3gpt to 4gpt Research begun: Engineering Novgorod grows: 6 Yaroslavl' grows: 6 Cottage Ville grows: 3
Turn 206 (590 AD) Cottage Ville begins: Worker Yaroslavl' begins: Worker Moscow finishes: Maceman Novgorod finishes: Maceman Taoism founded in a distant land
Turn 208 (620 AD) GreyFox: Monty declared on Hatty Moscow finishes: Catapult St. Petersburg grows: 8 Yaroslavl' finishes: Harbor
Turn 209 (635 AD) Moscow begins: Galley Yaroslavl' begins: Barracks GreyFox: Gandhi built Shrine for Hinduism GreyFox: whipped lighthouse in St Pete St. Petersburg finishes: Lighthouse
Turn 205, 575 AD: Upped clam to hatty for 2gpt to 3gpt
Turn 205, 575 AD: Upped rice to JC for 3gpt to 4gpt
Turn 206, 590 AD: Hatshepsut adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 206, 590 AD: Taoism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 207, 605 AD: Taoism FIADL
Turn 207, 605 AD: whipped worker at Yaroslavl
Turn 207, 605 AD: You have trained a Worker in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 207, 605 AD: Gandhi adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 207, 605 AD: Mencius (Great Prophet) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!
Turn 207, 605 AD: Orville Wright (Great Engineer) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 207, 605 AD: Montezuma has declared war on Hatshepsut!
Turn 208, 620 AD: Monty declared on Hatty
Turn 208, 620 AD: Gandhi has completed The Kashi Vishwanath!
Turn 209, 635 AD: Gandhi built Shrine for Hinduism
Turn 209, 635 AD: whipped lighthouse in St Pete
Turn 210, 650 AD: The Colossus has been built in a far away land!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Police State!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Theocracy!
Turn 211, 665 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 211, 665 AD: John Maynard Keynes (Great Merchant) has been born in Moscow (VQ)!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Julius Caesar has declared war on Gandhi!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Louis XIV adopts Vassalage!
Turn 212, 680 AD: Gandhi has 5 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 212, 680 AD: Rostov has grown to size 5
Turn 212, 680 AD: Cottage Ville has grown to size 4
Turn 213, 695 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 213, 695 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 8 on the next turn
Turn 213, 695 AD: Novgorod will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 213, 695 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Hatshepsut
Turn 214, 710 AD: Mansa Musa has 410 gold available for trade
Turn 214, 710 AD: Mao Zedong has 320 gold available for trade
Turn 214, 710 AD: Tokugawa has 6 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 214, 710 AD: You have discovered Engineering!
Turn 214, 710 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 8
Turn 214, 710 AD: Novgorod has grown to size 7
Turn 214, 710 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Mansa Musa
I found Alex braging about it a while ago... But he doesnt have Ivory??
He must have traded for Ivory back when he just got construction.
Just for that reason I would like to have the Pike join our assault force... cause the WE is one of the likely (with the Sword + Phalanx) to counter ASAP.
Also we have to make sure to block that passage to not allow Alex' navy to slip by our naval defence.
EDIT: We do not have enough ships to block ... there are a total of 4 tiles to block ... impossible. In fact, if we declared next turn, our trireme would most probably die ... since there are a total of 4 ships (2 t 2 g) in the stone-city.
Realized we can actually block the two Greek coast west of stone city, effectively blocking them. But it is a gamble, since we have only two triremes at hand, whereas there have 2 also.
I am not too worried abt the elephant, as Athens is 2 turns away, so the elephant will not have enough time to reinforce stone-city before it falls into our hand. Pike is ready in 2 turns, adding 2 turns of transport, it can reinforce the captured city in 4 turns. Hopefully not too many maces fall to the phant by then.
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(IIRC)
on the merchant, thus possibly delaying the scientists?!
slaves.
Also traded Fur for Clams with Mansa.
(That is going to HURT plenty!)
