What Worker??!! ...
... Man!!! ... 
... Umm ... 
... The scout? ... I mean? ... (. crawls off to hide under the desktop) ... 
SGOTM 03 - Team VQ
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
... Man!!! ... ... Umm ... ... The scout? ... I mean? ... (. crawls off to hide under the desktop) ... @ namliaM. I've just noticed sth about your excel sheet v2. Shouldn't base commerce be 8? I'm working on some sheets myself, would you mind having a look at them sometime? It'll all be handwork, though. I just didn't want to dig into the mathematics for now.
Do I say Mids? - Yes!
Why?
Quite some food + philo trait + representation (+3
per specialist; +3 
in the 5 largest cities) + the occasional 
= 
For the Mids I'd even drop the Oracle.
Regards, .
Yes.
Do I say Mids? - Yes!
Why?
Quite some food + philo trait + representation (+3
per specialist; +3 in the 5 largest cities) + the occasional = For the Mids I'd even drop the Oracle.
Regards, .
namliaM
Deity
Dot,
Yes it should be 8 commerce. But I was counting actually beakers...
You get 1 free beaker allways which is why I used 9, to get to 11 total per turn = 8 turns to Fishing if you settle on the spot.
Guess we have to go see how viable it is to grab the Mids...
Yes it should be 8 commerce. But I was counting actually beakers...
You get 1 free beaker allways which is why I used 9, to get to 11 total per turn = 8 turns to Fishing if you settle on the spot.
Guess we have to go see how viable it is to grab the Mids...
GreyFox
Make it so ...
Hey, guys, how abt some world builder build us a mockup to test which s better? The settler site or the scout site?
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--
namliaM
Deity
Like a true IT person I didnt read any further
Thanks for clearing that right up Alan
Fox: Check here I did an excel thing where I checked one against the other. But I am going to have to do some more testing I think, it took me some tries on the original site to get to the earliest possible settler.
If we are going for the Mids, are we going there from the get go? Or start with a settler anyway?
Or Worker-Settler? So the worker can start chopping/mining those 3 hills.
Thanks for clearing that right up Alan
Fox: Check here I did an excel thing where I checked one against the other. But I am going to have to do some more testing I think, it took me some tries on the original site to get to the earliest possible settler.
If we are going for the Mids, are we going there from the get go? Or start with a settler anyway?
Or Worker-Settler? So the worker can start chopping/mining those 3 hills.
GreyFox
Make it so ...
Is it better to go for the Mids or the TGLighthouse? In any case, the stones will help. I read the post, I just don't know what's your conclusion from all those ... is it better to go for the original settler site or the scout site?
On intuition, it is better to settle on the scout site for the hammer boost which will be good. The original settler site is better saved for a second (GP-Farm) city.
Question is can we afford to lose the early commerce (+ 3 turns delay)?
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On intuition, it is better to settle on the scout site for the hammer boost which will be good. The original settler site is better saved for a second (GP-Farm) city.
Question is can we afford to lose the early commerce (+ 3 turns delay)?
--
Cool. Didn't know that I'll always have one beaker for free.
Here you go:
As for the Mids Or TGL: Both would be nice! But I'm sure that namliaM is at it.
Regards to all, .
GreyFox
Make it so ...
Hmm ... I am pretty convinced that the fog east of settler has a resource ... because in the real game, the blue circle appeared at the north of the fog tile, whereas here the blue circle is directly below the scout.
Anyway, I am flying off to Japan tomorrow, so you guys can go ahead and settle where you want. Should be able to check the forums in 24 hrs time.
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Anyway, I am flying off to Japan tomorrow, so you guys can go ahead and settle where you want. Should be able to check the forums in 24 hrs time.
--
namliaM
Deity
I agree another source must be in the fog.
In a regular game I would bet on another source of spice. I am 99% sure it is a grass tile... 100% sure it is not with forrest.
Also I am 99% on the 3 nothern tiles beeing jungle.
Not sure about the 1 tile in the Scout BFC that is still fog.
In the simulation I did in Excel I deducted 88 commerce from fishing, asumming we want that first and it is a simple 1:1 on commerce.
Bronzeworking we get a bonus (20%?) because the tech has a prereq tech.
But I am not sure how this works with roundings and stuff. I do know we finish BW on about 240+ raw commerce/beakers. So from both totals I deducted the 88 beakers for Fishing, not for anything else.
Including the 3 turn move, this means....
80 00 51 1007 4 | 25 16 860 4 End of comparison
We lose 140 beakers over the 80 period including the 3 turn migration to the scout site, that is a quite substantial loss of 1.6 beakers a turn. Or in percentage points: 14% of gross commerce.
On a positive note:
From roughly turn 55 onwards we should have 2 cities in both scenarios.
The 2 cities will likely be on these 2 spots the only question is which city in which spot. So any commerce loss after turn 80 (we need some time to get both cities up and running) will be null and void.
i.e. the 2 different scenarios are getting the same total hammers and total commerce. So all in all it doesnt matter that much I guess....
The difference comes into play again when/if we addopt bureaucracy with the 50% hammer bonus. I think in the end the scout site will make a stronger capitol, having our capitol be commerce only and/or GP farm .... Not that good I think.
I will give the excel sheet another run tonight.
@. If you put science to 0% you allways keep researching some (1 beaker) that is why you allways see a number when at 0% research.
It is one beaker tho and not one commerce, so I am "breaking" it a little. But for the course of the excel excercise (not counting maintenance and such either) it will do. The breaking part tho is for the Original spot we are making 10 commerce, 11 beakers.
In 8 turns if you make 8*10 beaker = 80 beakers.
Fishing = 88 Beakers. If you use the real 8*11=88 beakers = Fishing in 8 turns instead of 9, which makes a difference for the simulation.
Offcourse the 20% bonus on BW is also breaking but I am unsure how it exactly works. I do know we got it in turn 28? of the original site = roughly 240 raw commerce after Fishing.
In a regular game I would bet on another source of spice. I am 99% sure it is a grass tile... 100% sure it is not with forrest.
Also I am 99% on the 3 nothern tiles beeing jungle.
Not sure about the 1 tile in the Scout BFC that is still fog.
In the simulation I did in Excel I deducted 88 commerce from fishing, asumming we want that first and it is a simple 1:1 on commerce.
Bronzeworking we get a bonus (20%?) because the tech has a prereq tech.
But I am not sure how this works with roundings and stuff. I do know we finish BW on about 240+ raw commerce/beakers. So from both totals I deducted the 88 beakers for Fishing, not for anything else.
Including the 3 turn move, this means....
80 00 51 1007 4 | 25 16 860 4 End of comparison
We lose 140 beakers over the 80 period including the 3 turn migration to the scout site, that is a quite substantial loss of 1.6 beakers a turn. Or in percentage points: 14% of gross commerce.
On a positive note:
From roughly turn 55 onwards we should have 2 cities in both scenarios.
The 2 cities will likely be on these 2 spots the only question is which city in which spot. So any commerce loss after turn 80 (we need some time to get both cities up and running) will be null and void.
i.e. the 2 different scenarios are getting the same total hammers and total commerce. So all in all it doesnt matter that much I guess....
The difference comes into play again when/if we addopt bureaucracy with the 50% hammer bonus. I think in the end the scout site will make a stronger capitol, having our capitol be commerce only and/or GP farm .... Not that good I think.
I will give the excel sheet another run tonight.
@. If you put science to 0% you allways keep researching some (1 beaker) that is why you allways see a number when at 0% research.
It is one beaker tho and not one commerce, so I am "breaking" it a little. But for the course of the excel excercise (not counting maintenance and such either) it will do. The breaking part tho is for the Original spot we are making 10 commerce, 11 beakers.
In 8 turns if you make 8*10 beaker = 80 beakers.
Fishing = 88 Beakers. If you use the real 8*11=88 beakers = Fishing in 8 turns instead of 9, which makes a difference for the simulation.
Offcourse the 20% bonus on BW is also breaking but I am unsure how it exactly works. I do know we got it in turn 28? of the original site = roughly 240 raw commerce after Fishing.
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
namliaM you made an excellent report and have opened my eyes to perhaps with settling where we are and building settler almost immediately. Why I think this is best is your facts about the loss.
That's just too much of a kick in the pants. Furrie makes a good point that site will put out a settler quickly with all that food. As to the Pyramids only question is can we do it fast enough to build and bold enough to go straight for prerequisites. Pyramids has to be the most important wonder in the game. We don't need anything else and even at some point excel to get a later religion thru lightbulbing.
We should go ahead and settle there and scout some more. I would like to see that tile east of site and see how large our landmass is.
Techpath? fishing-BW-masonry could we in the timespan of researching these get a city up and running on second site? I'd say yes but we will need lots of workboats for main site and second site and whipped in first city. (if that is the route we take however some might be thinking about moving the settler) Getting the food to the second site will give us ample citizen to work the hills and stone. I am not crazy about settling on a plains hill. 4hammers lost and just think the impact it will have much later in the game when hammers are desperately needed.
That too is still not out unless we know what the tiles west of those hills look like. If there is another grass hill they do a better job of being worked than a plains, meaning more ability to support itself then plains with no food.
1. we need to scout
2. we need to settle on spot. (can always move palace)
3. settler needs to be built soon
That's just too much of a kick in the pants. Furrie makes a good point that site will put out a settler quickly with all that food. As to the Pyramids only question is can we do it fast enough to build and bold enough to go straight for prerequisites. Pyramids has to be the most important wonder in the game. We don't need anything else and even at some point excel to get a later religion thru lightbulbing.
We should go ahead and settle there and scout some more. I would like to see that tile east of site and see how large our landmass is.
Techpath? fishing-BW-masonry could we in the timespan of researching these get a city up and running on second site? I'd say yes but we will need lots of workboats for main site and second site and whipped in first city. (if that is the route we take however some might be thinking about moving the settler) Getting the food to the second site will give us ample citizen to work the hills and stone. I am not crazy about settling on a plains hill. 4hammers lost and just think the impact it will have much later in the game when hammers are desperately needed.
That too is still not out unless we know what the tiles west of those hills look like. If there is another grass hill they do a better job of being worked than a plains, meaning more ability to support itself then plains with no food.
1. we need to scout
2. we need to settle on spot. (can always move palace)
3. settler needs to be built soon
Meatbuster
formerly Robo Kai
I disagree with the 'Mids. GLighthouse is more important, as its bonus is irreplaceable (and we can put off researching corporation for a long time in order to continue enjoying it). On the other hand (if we lose 'mids) we may be able to get Representation in the early AD's by beelining Constitution (also good idea since we can use Liberalism to get Democracy for free). The only thing Pyramids has over GLighthouse is the Great Engineer points which would allow us to steal wonders in this overcrowded map.
Good job putting all that effort in calculation, Mailman!
Good job putting all that effort in calculation, Mailman!
bobrath
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,238
My gut is kinda torn for both sites.
In Place - can pop out a settler faster and that would let our second site go to work on wonders while our initial capital handles the workers/units/other stuff.
Scout Site - get the hammers in the capital site right away, 3 turns isn't a drop dead amount if you can make it up in wonders/GPs. Obviously we'll be chunking out GPs later in the game from our second site.
If I was pressed to decide right now then I'd say settle on the scout site since since the culture of the capital will quickly block off the ideal second site for us AND it potentially be more central to our empire. That being said, there's a small voice that says "the game always makes the first site really good" - even tho the SG gods have ways of making that not as true!
My vote is to settle on scout.
In Place - can pop out a settler faster and that would let our second site go to work on wonders while our initial capital handles the workers/units/other stuff.
Scout Site - get the hammers in the capital site right away, 3 turns isn't a drop dead amount if you can make it up in wonders/GPs. Obviously we'll be chunking out GPs later in the game from our second site.
If I was pressed to decide right now then I'd say settle on the scout site since since the culture of the capital will quickly block off the ideal second site for us AND it potentially be more central to our empire. That being said, there's a small voice that says "the game always makes the first site really good" - even tho the SG gods have ways of making that not as true!
My vote is to settle on scout.
namliaM
Deity
I wasnt actually trying that hard... I am sure I didnt optimize it yet... But I was playing . latest test game, after replacing the Ice patches due north by Jungles... and this happened
Pyramids in turn 107 ! There wasnt even a civ building it yet.
Pyramids + Stone = 375 hammers. I inserted a lighthouse someplace... So we can also get TGL pre 107 if we want on the scout site.
Also I realised another advantage of the scout site. The second city will be (much) close to the capitol => Less maintenance => More beakers??
Oh and we lose 2 turns not 3.
We either found on turn 0 and start producing.
Or Move on turn 0, move on turn 1, Found on Turn 2.
I had Buddism on turn 20
Hindu on turn 32
Judaism on turn 69
My tech path was
Fishing
BW
Sailing (Lighthouse)
Masonry
The Wheel (roading for the stone)
Mysticism (for a Obelisk in St. Petes)
Pottery (to get to writing)
Writting
Alpha (with 19 turns left)
Builds
Warrior
Scout
Worker (whipped)
Settler (@Size2)
Lighthouse and Mids inbetween...
Wonders:
Great wall (87)
Oracle (105)
Stonehenge (106)
*goes to work Excel*
Pyramids in turn 107 ! There wasnt even a civ building it yet.
Pyramids + Stone = 375 hammers. I inserted a lighthouse someplace... So we can also get TGL pre 107 if we want on the scout site.
Also I realised another advantage of the scout site. The second city will be (much) close to the capitol => Less maintenance => More beakers??
Oh and we lose 2 turns not 3.
We either found on turn 0 and start producing.
Or Move on turn 0, move on turn 1, Found on Turn 2.
I had Buddism on turn 20
Hindu on turn 32
Judaism on turn 69
My tech path was
Fishing
BW
Sailing (Lighthouse)
Masonry
The Wheel (roading for the stone)
Mysticism (for a Obelisk in St. Petes)
Pottery (to get to writing)
Writting
Alpha (with 19 turns left)
Builds
Warrior
Scout
Worker (whipped)
Settler (@Size2)
Lighthouse and Mids inbetween...
Wonders:
Great wall (87)
Oracle (105)
Stonehenge (106)
*goes to work Excel*
Yeah, I've built the pyramids ...
And I bet we could get out another settler from st pete and could still do the mids there, while going for TGL in moscow. I'll check that tomorrow, since it's close to midnight around here.namliaM said:
Yep. That sprang to my mind, too, MPW. That's the reason why I'd definitely take the delay of two turns in the beginning and settle Moscow on the scout site!namliaM said:
Regards, . (builder of the mids)
namliaM
Deity
The problem offcourse with Petes is the lack of production that is available...
You can whip a worker and a settler and have 80 or so overflow
Chop 3 maybe 4 (if the 4th doesnt go to Moscow) forrests = 3*20 = 60 hammers.
Total of a 140 hammers, where is the rest going to come from? 200+ hammers at 40 hammers overflow/15 turns = 3 per turn, + 1 per turn for the CC = 4 per turn.
200 / 4 = 50 turns with allready 2 whips overflowed => 50 + 2*15 = 80 turns.
We are looking at turn 180 at the earliest! Probably more like turn 200...
Is that going to be good enough?
Something new to consider: Whipping/Settler
If we whip Moscow at size 4 for 2 pop, it takes about 10 turns to grow back.
5 Turns at size 2
5 Turns at size 3
Once the stone is up and the mine is down on the hill, the whip gains us 90 hammers on something else (2nd Settler?).
And costs us 5*(3 + 4) = 35, 5*3=15 => 50 hammers, that we cannot/are not putting into the Mids. Just to regrow, also it costs some 45 hammers we have to put into the Settler prior to whipping.
Which means we could finish the Mids some 8-9 turns earlier by not whipping a second settler. But it cramps our expansion.
In the test game I was not that far behind on the AI, some had cities allready but most still were at 3 due to a lack of navy to expand their empires.
I guess it is about time to start going in this game, so lets try counting ideas
I think Fishing => BW is a gimmy and is agreed by all.
In a race for the Mids we may want to change the techpath from
Fishing
BW
Sailing (Lighthouse)
Masonry
The Wheel (roading for the stone)
Mysticism (for a Obelisk in St. Petes)
Pottery (to get to writing)
Writting
Alpha (with 19 turns left)
To:
Fishing
BW
Masonry
The Wheel (roading for the stone)
Mysticism (for a Obelisk in St. Petes)
Sailing (Lighthouse)
Pottery (to get to writing)
Writting
Alpha (with 19 turns left)
Tho not having sailing makes for no auto trade route for a while = 2 lost commerce (atleast) per turn.
Sailing is 223, / 15 beakers a turn = 15 turns
Masonry 178 + Wheel 133 + Myst 111 = 422 beakers/ 15 = 28 turns * 2 = 56 commerce lost...
Getting out 2 workboats ASAP in both cities is also good and agreed by all.
Settling
Furrie: In place
Bob: Scout
Cosmic: In place
Me: Scout
Foxxy: Anywhere, just settle allready
(In place or??)
Robo: ?
Dot: ?
Scowler: ? (Have not yet seen him?)
Frankcor: ? (If he has any vote in this
)
@ Cosmic
1) Yes Agree.. need to scout ....
2) Moving palace is quite some hammers (200 or so?) we could save if Moscow/scout is indeed our new capitol.
3) If we on the scout site do produce a Worker/Settler the settler is delayed 4 turns vs a Settler only from the original site.
If we copy and do only a settler from both moscows ASAP, the settler is delayed a full turn, which we get back due to the route he has to take. (asuming we settle the same 2 spots), finishing on either a hill or FP tile. => Timing of the settler doesnt matter.
Edit:
We could also consider founding on the Plains due South west of the scout (in the blue circel).
Downside:
The settler site is blocked, which potentially is a great/good early GP Farm.
Upside:
We can mine the Plains hill. Down again, we lost the (now) jungle grass hill. so hammer wize it doesnt much matter.
@Dot
It doesnt look to be a hill 2 North of the scout to me... Shouldnt it light up if it was a hill?
You can whip a worker and a settler and have 80 or so overflow
Chop 3 maybe 4 (if the 4th doesnt go to Moscow) forrests = 3*20 = 60 hammers.
Total of a 140 hammers, where is the rest going to come from? 200+ hammers at 40 hammers overflow/15 turns = 3 per turn, + 1 per turn for the CC = 4 per turn.
200 / 4 = 50 turns with allready 2 whips overflowed => 50 + 2*15 = 80 turns.
We are looking at turn 180 at the earliest! Probably more like turn 200...
Is that going to be good enough?
Something new to consider: Whipping/Settler
If we whip Moscow at size 4 for 2 pop, it takes about 10 turns to grow back.
5 Turns at size 2
5 Turns at size 3
Once the stone is up and the mine is down on the hill, the whip gains us 90 hammers on something else (2nd Settler?).
And costs us 5*(3 + 4) = 35, 5*3=15 => 50 hammers, that we cannot/are not putting into the Mids. Just to regrow, also it costs some 45 hammers we have to put into the Settler prior to whipping.
Which means we could finish the Mids some 8-9 turns earlier by not whipping a second settler. But it cramps our expansion.
In the test game I was not that far behind on the AI, some had cities allready but most still were at 3 due to a lack of navy to expand their empires.
I guess it is about time to start going in this game, so lets try counting ideas
I think Fishing => BW is a gimmy and is agreed by all.
In a race for the Mids we may want to change the techpath from
Fishing
BW
Sailing (Lighthouse)
Masonry
The Wheel (roading for the stone)
Mysticism (for a Obelisk in St. Petes)
Pottery (to get to writing)
Writting
Alpha (with 19 turns left)
To:
Fishing
BW
Masonry
The Wheel (roading for the stone)
Mysticism (for a Obelisk in St. Petes)
Sailing (Lighthouse)
Pottery (to get to writing)
Writting
Alpha (with 19 turns left)
Tho not having sailing makes for no auto trade route for a while = 2 lost commerce (atleast) per turn.
Sailing is 223, / 15 beakers a turn = 15 turns
Masonry 178 + Wheel 133 + Myst 111 = 422 beakers/ 15 = 28 turns * 2 = 56 commerce lost...
Getting out 2 workboats ASAP in both cities is also good and agreed by all.
Settling
Furrie: In place
Bob: Scout
Cosmic: In place
Me: Scout
Foxxy: Anywhere, just settle allready
(In place or??)Robo: ?
Dot: ?
Scowler: ? (Have not yet seen him?)
Frankcor: ? (If he has any vote in this
)@ Cosmic
1) Yes Agree.. need to scout ....
2) Moving palace is quite some hammers (200 or so?) we could save if Moscow/scout is indeed our new capitol.
3) If we on the scout site do produce a Worker/Settler the settler is delayed 4 turns vs a Settler only from the original site.
If we copy and do only a settler from both moscows ASAP, the settler is delayed a full turn, which we get back due to the route he has to take. (asuming we settle the same 2 spots), finishing on either a hill or FP tile. => Timing of the settler doesnt matter.
Edit:
We could also consider founding on the Plains due South west of the scout (in the blue circel).
Downside:
The settler site is blocked, which potentially is a great/good early GP Farm.
Upside:
We can mine the Plains hill. Down again, we lost the (now) jungle grass hill. so hammer wize it doesnt much matter.
@Dot
It doesnt look to be a hill 2 North of the scout to me... Shouldnt it light up if it was a hill?
GreyFox
Make it so ...
I would go for:
Fishing > BW > Masonry > Wheel > Sailing > ...
Settling-wise, I think scout place is better for capitol. The original site is a good Gp-Farm, and everybody know it is a waste to have GP-Farm in Capitol.
Build wise, since Masonry is enabled first, I would go for Pyramids. But a worker and settler should come first, obviously to faste rgain commerce benefit from the original site.
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Fishing > BW > Masonry > Wheel > Sailing > ...
Settling-wise, I think scout place is better for capitol. The original site is a good Gp-Farm, and everybody know it is a waste to have GP-Farm in Capitol.
Build wise, since Masonry is enabled first, I would go for Pyramids. But a worker and settler should come first, obviously to faste rgain commerce benefit from the original site.
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No vote -- I'm just astounded at the preparations you guys are doing before playing this game. You're going to kick some butt.Frankcor: ? (If he has any vote in this
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