SGOTM 03 - Team VQ

[Cosmichail]

namliaM I liked B because the sooner we have settler the better. The sooner we have a second city for production the better. (don't like to see so many pop being wasted on settler too since we aren't that foodrich in Moscow not like Kyoto) I also am beginning to believe that going for TGL is a crapshoot and wonder about it now.

The question is this: do we put off expansion in very crowded map or risk it for TGL. I say forget it and get cities built and hope we can steal it. Either way stealing it or building it is a risk. (we can compensate with merchants too and pop GM which also pretty effective. Currency in this game will be important)

Much of this debate too is academic until we actually see the rest of the landmass and whether we have metals or horses. I do like your GP popping chart namliaM as we will need it and I do believe Moscow should be a GP farm at first.

Welkom Furrie nou jij ben de jongeman ik ben de oude herr. (oude gekke herr)

EDIT: Of course COL will be needed for GM's for caste system if that is the route we go.

 

[namliaM]

heer, cosmic, heer not herr that is German *goes and cleans the keyboard*

The artist collor really came out bad... but otherwize I hope it comes in handy.
I had this in my mind for a while as I find the GP lists to be painfull to use and I hope this would be easier.

If we are aiming for backdoor diplo, then we are better off having more cities vs having a wonder I guess... I think we can reliably get it if:
1) We whip a worker after the settler (Nice overflow)
2) Clearcut Moscow

So to get on with the roster... Who is picking this up and moving the Scout? I could do it just a few hours after it becomes free.

 

[dot]

Guten Abend (oder Tag), die Herren!

Team, what do you think about getting the Oracle in Moscow and building TGL in St. Petersburg? Or the other way round? It seems - and yes, Cosmic, this is academic - that we'll have some forests to chop at St. Petersburg (assuming from the already posted screeny).

As for the screeny that is yet to be taken: I think that we could risk

1. moving the scout, and
2. settling on spot.

Whoever is first could do that, take a screeny and post it. Maybe namliaM would have time for a wonderful new excel sheet ... Maybe with the TGL/Oracle double? And then we could discuss. Personally, I don't think that there'll be a so much better spot that it'd be worth losing one turn early on. Just my $0.02 anyway.

If we build the Oracle we'd have a Great Prophet first. And what do you all think on bulbing Theology then? That proposal hasn't yielded any comments, yet.

@namliaM: B! Reasons as Cosmic posted!

Regards, .

 

[dot]

Waiting for the save is like Christmas, only 24 days earlier!

 

[Cosmichail]

@namliaM -- keyboard cleaned and must have had German on the brain. This spring will get a chance to get my Dutch back to par.

Yes I do say old chap please do although if it is a matter of just moving the scout I could do it at 12:01am since I am in the same time zone and up at that time. Not my turn though I still think namliaM has the midas touch and should play first.

@Dot what concerns me about wonders is that it will take away from needed expansion. If we are lucky and can get 4 or 5 cities where we are then fine. But and that's a big but what if we don't have metals of any kind. We will be very much dwarfed from doing any kind of military campaigns. We need to make sure as Scowler pointed out to have iron (more important than copper) no 1. Deviating from that will only allow the AI to excel and grab what little resources there will be. Another conundrum too here is the landmass is small and the workers will run out of work quickly. Getting galleys up and running very soon imo is also in the top five. If we can fit oracle/tgl with that I say fine but to be honest on monarch might be difficult.

I remember in SGOTM2 the AI did not go for oracle very soon. (look at CFR thread and it's amazing they got it). That will not be the case here and look at namliaMs results of 109 turns. To build TGL it will mean ignoring everything else. Is it worth it? With Peter's UU horses will be needed which is another toughie again to find on this map. AH is also going to be needed fairly soon so we will know where to find it. One might find that we will need to do quite a bit of scouting to find the necessary resources. Remember Gyathaar conundrum in SGOTM great spot for Osaka but high maintenance. Now maybe here he makes us hunt for the goodies like easter eggs. Why would he make it so easy to have iron/horses on our landmass. This is highly improbable so we need to find out sooner rather than later.

 

[namliaM]

... the Oracle in Moscow and building TGL in St. Petersburg?

Oracle got build even earlier than TGL in my test games + it requires Religious techs.... which we arent aiming for? Right?

We can allways resort to everyone's UU... The Catapult rush, with some Archers as defence. If we can get a situation where we have Cata vs Defending archers... That is easy!
Even defending LBs soon become pray for Cata... (after 1 or 2 suicide bombers)

I agree with cosmics thoughts on Iron and Horses... But we will get to it when we get to it.
I think on techs, we want to have 1 or 2 Galleys out ASAP?
Opening with Fishing => BW is just a must IMHO.
After that we see what the (little) land brings us. Probably Sailing next tho.
Folowed by something usefull... Uhm... Pottery/Archery/Myst?

We want to get to Alphabet/Math quickly I think. Alpha to start trading, math to trade it for IW and for the chopping bonus .
Also it leads to Currency which is a nice + allways.

After that pretty much beeline for Education for our cheap Universities.
I would like to check out a beeline to Mass Media for the UN. The faster we can build it, the faster we are to win?
Wow a Beeline really runs around some major techs... No education, No Gunpowder, No MT.

We really want to have atleast a scientist (maybe 2) to burn on Philo. I am not to sure about founding Taoism tho....

I think I like B if we have a smallish Island, C if the scout is away to scout out our larger island.

 

[Meatbuster]

If I remember correctly only 1 sci is needed for Philo, on any speed.

GLighthouse is a crapshoot yes, but not if we beeline Sailing and Masonry before or after Fishing & Bronze Works (Sailing first to start a non-great lighthouse immediately). We can build it in St. Pete's which hopefully should be a production city while Moscow cranks out the workers/fogbusters. I'd rather have cities, yes, but we're not even sure if we can expand so much before needing to build that first galley/extra warrior to escort the third settler. There seems to be land up there, we don't know how much until scout moves, but I'm willing to bet there should be enough for a third city before we die of maintenance, especially since it seems like we seem to be located at South Africa (in relation with the African continent).

Capturing the GLighthouse? There's no guarantee a nearby civ will build it for us. It could end up halfway around the world.

 

[Cosmichail]

I was going to take a look at the save but let's leave the move to namliaM. I don't have the newst HOF loaded yet still 001. Will do it tomorrow however have downloaded it. At lot is riding on what the scout finds back there.

 

[namliaM]

Building any wonder (oracle or TGLight) in St. Petes is going to be near impossible.

It is going to be about turn 50 that it is founded. To build TGlight you need 390 hammers. On avarage it gets build at turn 130? (Guestimating pretty late as I had a couple before 110). This means you need atleast 5 hammers/turn on average to even have a realistic shot at TGLight.

This MAY be possible in Moscow, but not in St.Pete IMHO.

On the scientists, I meant Education, not Philo.

 

[namliaM]

OK, here it is... Looks like a great alternate site for Moscow. Either on the suggested spot (2NE) or on the plains hill (3NE). Not sure it is worth "wasting" 2 or 3 turns over...

The 2 lands we can see south we were asuming were Tundra, now look more like Plains to me...

I will try to run some excel simulation later...

 

[GreyFox]

Heh ... seems like there are more than enough land for 3 cities (thus 2 settlers).

I would still settle on site ... unless someone can convince me moving the settler to where the scout currently is is worth the 3 turns delay of starting our research.

--

 

[namliaM]

Question: How do you turn on those blue circels?

The scout site does have more food (due to the fish) alltho we start offcourse in the whole...

It has WAY more production

We lose 1 commerce/turn for working the Fish/Clams vs Clams/Clams
And we lose 1 commerce/turn for the FP
And we lose 1 commerce/turn for the PSpice.

But we have way more early production!
I have not been able to run the Excel sheet, which I will do tonight.
But IIRC at turn 8 we would learn Fishing, on this site it will take 3 turns + 9 = turn 12
On site O (Original) on turn 12 we have 4 hammers into the WB and grow to size 2. Adding 3 hammers/turn into the WB
From turn 12 we can be putting 4 hammers/turn into the WB on site S (Scout).
This means on site S, the first WB is done in 12 turns. (turn 24)
On site O, (45-3)/3 = 14 turns (turn 26).

At this stage (turn 26)
Site S is size 1 with (25-3 + 5=) 27 food
Site O is size 2 with (14 * 2 = ) 28 food

However we do have to delay our second WB a few turns until BW is in.

I really need my sheet for more detailed info... *grmbl*

This just occured to me this morning: Specialist Economy !
Archipelago = high food, low production... Right?
Also with "tropical" we are likely to encounter a lot of jungle = Chopping with IW.
If we indeed go: Fishing, BW, Sailing, Masonry? (TGLight?), (insert a worker tech or 2 here), Writing, Alpha, Math
This means that IW (which is a popular AI tech) is quite a bit away, so we cannot start chopping untill late(r) => No/few land tile to work.

Also we are Philsophical, which kindoff helps with the GPPs.

I just noticed something... about the burning of GPs or Scientists in particular.
The first tech the Sceintist will bulb is Writing. Without writing no libs => No Great Scientist?!
There is no way to get a great scientist without getting writing first...

 

[namliaM]

Tu = Turn #
Fo = Food in food bar

Original site   | Scout site
Tu Fo Ha  Com S | Fo Ha Com S
08 24 08  000 1 | 12 12 072 1 Original wasted 8 hammers, Learns fishing (-88 Commerce)
11 00 03  033 2 | 15 00 014 1 Scout builds Warrior, Learns fishing (-88 commerce)
35 04 11  332 3 | 00 00 263 3 Both cities have 2 Workboats/nets
49 01 19  548 2 | 07 11 458 2 Original produces first settler
50 07 20  562 2 | 07 11 458 2 Scout    produces first settler
67 04 54  818 4 | 06 10 687 2 Scout    produces second settler
69 04 39  848 2 | 15 18 711 2 Original produces second settler
74 34 45  918 2 | 14 00 770 3 Scout    produces Lighthouse
80 00 51 1007 4 | 25 16 860 4 End of comparison

Note: The original site is still to build the Lighthouse!

I will have to have another look to make sure this is right... and maybe try some other variants....
But in this variation it looks like the Original site is out-teching the scout site and the Scout site is outgrowing/outproducing the Original site

A worker first trick on the Scout site won't work either I think. It only takes 13 turns to build a worker... but BW takes 24 turns. => Worker have nothing to do for atleast 11 turns.
Also BW first would delay learning Fishing to about turn 36! Meaning we cannot start building those important workboats untill then or a lighthouse for that matter.
Because we need those workboats, we must do Fishing, BW. Which in turn means we have absolutely nothing to do for any worker(s) untill atleast turn 40-ish. Around turn 40 we start our first settler build... so a worker is even after that.

 

[dot]

namliaM: Could you post the save where you've moved the worker so that i can just have a look around?

Regards, .

 

[namliaM]

What worker?

Just DL the original save from CFC? And make the same move?

Be sure not to move around tho!

 

[GreyFox]

Better not ... the discussions in the maintenance thread had been very specific abt this ... let's just abide to the rules (even though I really don't see any difference, but rules are rules).

 

[bobrath]

We can't do that namliam, have to go from a played save. There's no "recreating" allowed.

You can get a GS without writing if there's a wonder you can build that gives GS points...

 

[namliaM]

I will upload the save when I get home...

What wonder would that be bob? That doesnt need writing/library & gives Scientist GP points?
Oxfort U, requires Universities which require libs.
Great lib requires lib.
I dont know from memory which other (small) wonders will give Scientist points....

 

[namliaM]

I surely wasnt suggesting we break any rules.... surely not now we are so close to finaly winning this

I tried uploading it in the GOTM system... but I get an error message.

So please find it attached.

Question: How do you turn on those blue circels?

Uhm... I think I like the scout site better. Our current site is much more suited to a GP farm/commerce only city, it simply lacks the production power I like a capitol to have. The scout site surely does have that production power.
I am just not sure about the commerce tho... At the moment (I need to investigate) I dont know how it will impact the tech situation early on. 140 commerce is a lot to catch up on.

On the other hand, in the early game production & food = King. In both this, the scout site is the best at turn 80.
There is a gap of 39+16 = 57 hammers allready in favour of the scout site. And the hammer difference will keep on growing!

Just wondering here.... How do we feel about the specialist Economy? Do we have a shot at getting the Pyramids with the stone?
Pyramids + Scientists + Philo = fun I think.

 

[Cosmichail]

Nice site for great city and we have stone!!!

Did you say specialist economy.

I am for it, rather have pyramids than any other wonder. I like specialist economy and probably more good food sites. Question is do you we take the three turns and get the other site first. I am inclined to say yes.

What's three turns compared to having build a settler and getting that edge on production. I wouldn't worry about commerce too much as once we get specialist we will tech just fine. I don't think though with the sea resources we will loose much commerce overall.

The current site is just too weak and was one of the reasons I didn't see us getting the TGL before AI. Pyramids aren't built as fast but will have to be started soon. What we need to know how much more landmass is there. It looks like quite a bit and I agree those are plains south of us. If so then we aren't that far south.

If we have ample growing room then I wouldn't worry as much about expansion. What we see so far has a good chance of having iron. Let's hope.

So what do we do guys go for another walk like SGOTM02?

namliaM mmmmm about the blue circles. Wouldn't it be in options? With my civ whenever I activate the settler they pop up.