I vote for the plain tile as the second city.
It can work the pigs from the start, going to size 2, than whip obelisk. after that it will have fish and pigs for extra 7 food (8 with trading post) to work all the gold mines and even extra low food tile. with windmills it can work the 2 grass hills without food loss.
later on we might build a city that will take one of the gold hills and therefore free other tiles for that city.
this city can produce ~35 commerce per turn in less than 50 turns (3 gold mines + fish and maybe some other water tile)
I vote for the plain tile as the second city.
It can work the pigs from the start, going to size 2, than whip obelisk. after that it will have fish and pigs for extra 7 food (8 with trading post) to work all the gold mines and even extra low food tile. with windmills it can work the 2 grass hills without food loss.
later on we might build a city that will take one of the gold hills and therefore free other tiles for that city.
this city can produce ~35 commerce per turn in less than 50 turns (3 gold mines + fish and maybe some other water tile)
All of these arguments apply equally to settling on the desert-hill tile. However, the desert hill city avoids having to spend time on a workboat and can, instead, simply borrow a few worker turns to improve the corn.
The main arguments I see in favor of the plains tile are the access to the sea (always a perk, especially when playing as the vikings), an additional unique health resource, and the possibility of being a major production center if we ever really needed it (at the cost of a lot of commerce, though).
The desert hill tile, as I said, avoids having to build a workboat early in its life and can, instead focus on other infrastructure. It makes quicker use of a resource tile that would, otherwise, have to wait until after we develop iron working. It also has access to more grassland tiles, which works well toward making it a commerce powerhouse.
After weighing those factors, I'm torn. Both sites have their perks, but if no one else likes the desert hill tile, I guess I have my answer. Anyone else have some input?
Oh, and by the way, we'll likely be rushing a library, not a monument, in our second city. There's just too much synergy with all that gold and it's nice to not have to spend turns researching mysticism for very little benefit. At least, that's what I'd do.
I understand that people are discussing two possible sites: (A) plains south of river mouth (2W 1N of pig), (B) desert hill south of river mouth (2W 1S of pig).
Either site can quickly work 3 gold. Either site can get a second food resource (fish or corn) on cultural expansion.
Either site ends up creating one "wasted" tile in its fat cross (site A has the desert hill in its fat cross; site B has a coast tile with no option of lighthouse).
Whichever food resource we don't work from this city (fish or corn) will easily be used by another city in the future.
The advantages of site A are (1) coastal for Harbor and ship production, and (2) fresh water for increased health.
The advantages of site B are (1) can work 3 gold right away, without cultural expansion; (2) corn is easier to develop than building a workboat for the fish; (3) extra grassland hill for production purposes [klarius states that site A has two grassland hills, but, in fact, it only has one]; (4) if we don't work the corn from this city, we won't use it for quite a while, until we can clear a lot of jungle.
To me, B seems substantially better than A, in the short term (which is what is most important when founding the second city). In the long term it's more or less a wash, although I still think B is better. A has the disadvantage that if this city is dependent on the fish, there are a bunch of other plausible city sites that become relatively useless because they can't get enough food. While if we use the corn in this city, we still have many other good city sites to the south.
Alright, I plan on playing tonight (in about 10 hours or so). If there's any additional feedback, or someone just really wants me to wait for some reason, please speak up. As it stands, I'm now leaning back in favor of the desert hill for settling.
I've left the decision of what to produce at the capital to the next player. There's quite a bit of overflow to be rolled into whatever is chosen, so a settler may be the best choice (to grab the copper possibly EDIT: on looking at the map again, we shouldn't found a city to get copper. We get it through border expansion in 12 turns. Maybe grab the sheep and corn to the north, or just start focusing on military?).
We've got another city, another warrior, another worker, and a workboat for scouting now. Growth in Nidaros is going well, but the desert hill mines take quite some time to bring up to speed. None of the gold is roaded yet, so that'll need to be done at some point.
Reserach completed on bronze working and is a couple of turns into pottery (which, with the gold, is going very swiftly).
My notes:
Turn 0 - 2530 BC
- Switch citizen from horses to pigs (get a couple more turns of very fast growth in the capital)
- Start warrior and Settler moving toward the future city site
Turn 1 - 2500
- Nothing
Turn 2 - 2470
- Gibbons list of the most advanced civs, we're 8th, Gandhi is fortunately first.
- Worker starts roading toward future city site
Turn 3 - 2440
- Settler reaches the future city site unscathed
Turn 4 - 2410
- Found Nidaros (on the desert hill)
- Nidaros starts a warrior and steals the pig tile from the capital
Turn 5 - 2380
- Complete warrior in GroundnutHill, starts a workboat
- Start work on a gold mine
Turn 6 - 2350
- Scout successfully defends vs. a lion
Turn 7 - 2290
- Found Khan's border to the south
Turn 8 - 2260
- Nothing
Turn 9 - 2230
- Nothing
Turn 10 - 2200
- Gandhi's borders to the NW grow to encompass the fish
- switch production in capital to worker (so it can be rushed as soon as we're in slavery)
Turn 11 - 2170
- Learn Bronze Working, adopt slavery and switch research to pottery
- Bronze sighted to the north of the capital
Turn 14 - 2080
- Our scout meets his end a tthe end of a barbarian warrior's club
- Groundnuthill completes a workboat, starts a barracks (for now...)
- start the second gold mine and the last tile of road toward nidaros
Submission log:
Spoiler:
Turn 53, 2410 BC: Nidaros has been founded.
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Peanut's Scout (2.90)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Combat Odds: 11.1%
Turn 54, 2380 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Peanut's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Lion!
Turn 60, 2200 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 61, 2170 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Peanut adopts Slavery!
Turn 61, 2170 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 62, 2140 BC: You have trained a Worker in GroundnutHill. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Peanut's Scout (0.92)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 28 (64/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 28 (36/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 28 (8/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Peanut's Scout is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Peanut's Scout!
Turn 63, 2110 BC: While defending, your Scout was destroyed by a Barbarian Warrior!
I would rather build a second boat first to go the other direction. I see no use for much strong military currently, as I don't think we want to attack Mongolia, before we know other people. We could use some chariots for barbs and to finish scouting, but I don't think they urgently need to be build with barracks.
I also don't see that there is a site we urgently need to settle now. The best sites are in the south, but will shine only with IW. Sheep-corn in the north is decent, but I would rather wait for sailing (which I usually want to trade) to connect it immediately. It's to far to consider to link it with roads just now.
To the west a lot is blocked already by Gandhi.
Tech I think pottery-writing-alphabet and build libraries ASAP in both cities.
a space oddity
Wotan
malekithe - Just Played klarius <--- You're Up
MailMan - On Deck
civ_steve
ainwood
I think the push to Alphabet is warranted, and that goes hand in hand with more exploration and contact, so another scouting WB sounds good. We'll need IW to reduce the Jungle to the south, but that might be picked up in trade, as well as Sailing.
Here is your Session Turn Log from 2080 BC to 1600 BC:
Turn 67, 1990 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Turn 67, 1990 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!
Turn 74, 1780 BC: You have discovered Writing!
Turn 75, 1750 BC: The borders of GroundnutHill have expanded!
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Peanut's Chariot (4.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.00)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Combat Odds: 78.3%
Turn 77, 1690 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Peanut's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 77, 1690 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot (4.40) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.50)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Combat Odds: 75.3%
Turn 78, 1660 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Your Chariot has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 78, 1660 BC: GroundnutHill will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Nidaros will grow to size 4 on the next turn
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.20) vs Peanut's Chariot (1.40)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Combat Odds: 96.4%
Turn 78, 1660 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 78, 1660 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Peanut's Chariot!
Turn 78, 1660 BC: While defending, your Chariot was destroyed by a Barbarian Warrior!
Turn 79, 1630 BC: GroundnutHill has grown to size 6
Turn 79, 1630 BC: Nidaros has grown to size 4
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Peanut's Chariot (3.69) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.00)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Combat Odds: 62.6%
Turn 80, 1600 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (67/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (50/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Peanut's Chariot is hit for 17 (33/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Peanut's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Your Chariot has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 80, 1600 BC: You have captured Zhou!!!
Turn 80, 1600 BC: You have pillaged 17 ? from the destruction of Zhou!!!
Turn 0 2080:
Change build to work boat. I think exploaraion is most important.
Turn 1 2050:
nothing remarkable
Turn 2 2020:
Nidaros warrior->chariot.
Scouting WB finds a fish, which would make a nice fish-sheep city not as far as the corn-sheep site.
Turn 3 1990:
Capital WB->barracks.
Turn 4 1960:
Pottery->writing.
Turn 5 1930:
Scoutboat south finds marble.
turn 6-7:
nothing
Turn 8 1840:
Capital barracks->chariot.
turn 9 1810:
Some barb villages in the south.
Turn 10 1780:
nothing.
Turn 11 1750:
Writing->alphabet
Nidaros chariot->library.
Make open borders with Genghis. We should be able to cancel that in time if he tries to sneak something through.
Turn 12 1720:
Capital chariot->library.
Turn 13 1690:
Nothing
Turn 14 1660:
Barb skirmishes.
Turn 15 1630:
A barb warrior kills one of our chariots.
Turn 16 1600:
Pop rush library in the capital.
Autoraze barb village in sw. It was build on spices, so we anyway wouldn't have wanted it there.
Ok, that's a nice even number so stop here.
Nothing really happened. Didn't meet anybody new and doesn't look good for new contacts.
Alphabet in 12 or a bit faster with the library.
There are 2 forest chops under way, one for each city, which still can be stopped if we want to save the forests.
New resources we could want to settle are fish near the sheep to the north and marble south.
Securing marble might be a good idea, if we think we go for GLib.
Genghis should trade techs known to him and Gandhi in this situation, so alphabet still can get us some techs.
But Genghis has a low threshold for WFYABTA tech denial. If I understand this correctly this means we can trade 7 techs + 1 every 20 turns.
It doesn't really mean much as long as we don't meet new folks. He will not even have that much to trade.
In fact Mansa is the other extreme. The base value is 5 for Genghis which is multiplied by 1.5 for monarch difficulty. Some others are as low also. Many civs have a 10 there so will trade 15 techs at monarch.
Mansa is the only one with 20 base, 30 at monarch. And together with the 1 additional tech every 20 turns, it's just not possible to get over his threshold usually.
If I got the WFYABTA article right, unless we found another civ, we can trade with Genghis for all its techs. we will suffer WFYABTA only from India, which doesn't really bugs me.
So I may as well take the most of our current techs lead (probably only alphabet) to take the most out of Genghis since we are aiming for a fast tech pace.
Every tech trade counts for the WFYABTA for every civ. This includes the techs you receive from the civ you are trading with.
So when we get alphabet, Genghis has 8 techs available we could trade for (will not happen ) and we trade for all, we will hit the threshold immediately.
While we stay isolated with Genghis and Gandhi, Genghis' low threshold is no problem. The counter goes down by one, every 20 turns on average. I doubt that Genghis comes up with a tech we want to trade for, more often than every 20 turns (and Gandhi has to have it also or Genghis will not trade).
If we should meet another civ soon, then it may be necessary to watch this really.
If we are isolated until optics, I think there will be no problem up to then and we should meet better trading partners quickly.
1 - library finished in the capital, start granary
two forest chop finished this turn making it in 5 turns.
2 - spot Delhi - its size 8 already
3 - Delhi is now size 9. it build on a plain hill with stone (3 hammers) with the following resources:
2 whales, 2 fish, clams, ivory, gold, gems, corn
I wish we had that spot.
6 - barb warrior shows up in the north, granary finished in the capital, start chariot to counter the warrior.
7 - try to knock down a turn from completing the chariot in the capital by starving the city
8 - no good the warrior took the 3h spot forcing me the rush a chariot to avoid pillaging.
9 - kill the barb warrior, use spill over from the rush to a settler.
11 - we got alphabet. trade writing to Genghis for sailing. he will not give us anything better for writing.
he also has archery and masonry for trade, IW is redded out.
I set research to Metal casting for three reasons:
1. forges - it will give us additional happy face (maybe two after we get the gems.
2. the colossus.
3. good trading material.
The game crashed on me. I had to reload from autosave.
I think it related to the HOF mod. the game never crashes when I am not using any mods.
12 - GW was build somewhere
15 - kill barb archer with a chariot in the north
17 - Mongol raze barb city in the far SE.
18 - settler complete in the capital. I stop here for discussion.
Spoilerturnlog :
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Peanut's Chariot (4.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.40)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Combat Odds: 96.2%
Turn 89, 1330 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 89, 1330 BC: Peanut's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 90, 1300 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 91, 1270 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 92, 1240 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Peanut's Chariot (4.80) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.00)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Combat Odds: 94.1%
Turn 95, 1150 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 95, 1150 BC: Peanut's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 97, 1090 BC: Khoisan (Barbarian) has been captured by the Mongolian Empire!!!
Turn 98, 1060 BC: You have trained a Settler in GroundnutHill. Work has now begun on a Chariot.
Genghis will trade IW + 1 other tech for alphabet now (or the 3 minor techs w/o IW).
Best offer is IW + masonry in terms of beakers. But we could also go for IW and mysticism, to have more options for the next trade round.
What to do with the settler depends a bit on the iron location.
Our research should go into direction of optics. But there's the question if we want to side track for literature.
Also do we intend to generate a great scientist and what to do with him.
If we trade for masonry we open up pyramids and great lighthouse. Are we interested in any of these and can we afford to build a wonder?
For pyramids we should for sure get stone first. There is a stone on an island far to the SW. A town there will cost quite a bit maintenance and it's a long way to get there . On the other side there are 2 clams and a horse tile, so not a bad town.
Another thing is marble. It's probably a little late for Oracle, but GLib is a pretty useful wonder.
Too bad we can't gift anything to Gandhi, Marble in his hands would probably deliver the GLib at the proper place, he likes building it. Now we probably need to build it to deny the others, tech lead for us and Gandhidji is our goal, no? *headwiggle*
With regard to the stone, the wars will probably be late ones, I gather. So it's not a military liability probably, only an economic one. Still economics is important, especially early on.
I think Gandhi is setup to be a power house. there is a good chance that he will still many of the wonders we are aiming at.
Notice that trading Alpha will allow Gandhi and Genghis to trade among themselves.
I suggest taking the Alpha to IW + masonry, and based our next city on where is the iron.
There is a fog basting chariots in the south and north, so we can take either one.
we should build more chariots and connect the copper. there is a lot of free land and the barbs will soon ran at us with axes.
Well, I see this a bit different, wrt to war. Genghis will run us over some time, if we don't build enough military.
I assume he will research HBR soon and Keshiks are a PITA wrt sneak attacks.
Genghis is rejecting a war with Gandhi with the "enough at hands" phrase, which means he has a war plan already.
This doesn't mean he will go to war really soon, but if it's us he's after he will pull the trigger, if we stay to weak.
Though probably the decision who he wants to war is already taken, I think we should try to stay nice to him for now. We could gift him our spare gold. That's not costing us anything now.
Another observation:
Genghis and Gandhi are annoyed with each other. That's coming from the hidden basePeaceWeight modifier. They probably don't trade techs currently. Even if Genghis picks up Gandhi's religion, it's doubtful that he gets up to cautious versus Gandhi (the other way round will work then probably).
So if we want the two to trade, I see only one possibility. That's the mutual struggle bonus against us .
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. 
And if I understand THIS correctly, don't expect a lot of trading with Genghis. I assume Mansa Musa is on the other end of this parameter?
. On the other side there are 2 clams and a horse tile, so not a bad town.
.
