SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

[Thrallia]

Few thoughts:
1st Settler is intresting idea as we will be protected by the barbs and we dont need warrior for the first settler. The bad thing is that we really need worker in time for BW. By my calc. 1 worker need 23 t. while BW will need around 37-39(it depends if the barb reseach same thech as us). So in not very strict calc. - after the worker is out it will have 16-14 turn with only 1 aviliable hill for mining.This mean aroung 7-9 idle worker turns. 1Settler means 38 turn - on BW we will need another 23 to get the first worker. The early 2nd town also mean earlier research slow.
Well IMO we need IW before second town because of the jungle.
All my calc. are based on settling in place without any other resources in the FC.

Isn't the big reason we are beelining BW to enable axes for the barbs, rather than to give ourselves axes?

If that's the case, then I'd say building a settler first makes sense in a way...nothing but a mine for our worker to do, so getting a jump on our first settler could help us....on the other hand, I don't like the idea of keeping our capital size 1 for 60 turns.

PS: Somebody else has my avatar! Look in the GOTM 21 pregame ... never thought I would see the day! I may be changing mine because of that ... I have found a great photo of a model of da Vinci's tank!

dV

I like your new avatar much more than the old...I need to find a new one for myself as well...too many people running around with Augustus.

That is my line of thinking too. A turn with a worker idle is the same as a turn with a worker not built, so I guess I don't quite see why building him later solves the idle worker issue.

If we build the worker after we get to pop 2, does having the extra pop earlier make that much difference? Especially if that delays mining the pighill?

As always, I could be wrong, and could be persuaded by a good argument. C63 and R1 have been persuading me for years! (well, months then)

dV

The second pop may not make more than a couple turns difference for building the worker...but it could easily give us faster research...use the first pop on the pig hill, for building the barracks, then when we pop borders, switch to the bananas...it'll give us faster growth and better science rate(+1 beaker/turn makes a few turns difference in techs this early), then when we hit size 2, switch to a worker and work the bananas and another riverside tile(giving us +2 science to what we would be with worker first). We'll get the worker a few turns later, but we'll have a faster science rate, and we don't have anything to spend the hammers on at first anyway, other than the barracks.

 

[Thrallia]

IMPORTANT: Victory Conditions

Conquest victory is disabled in the Windows start files. So if you find yourselves all alone on the map, with only the barbs for company, please upload your final save in the normal way, and contact me or Gyathaar. We can then verify that you have indeed achieved a Conquest victory.

This does NOT apply to the Mac Team. Instead, they will not be able to win a Diplomatic victory. This VC is disabled, as I could find no way to mod the Mac version of Civ4 to allow the barb team to give or receive votes.

From the Maintenance thread...I guess this eliminates the debate over whether to check out a Diplo victory as the fastest victory...we'll go conquest or domination.

 

[Scout214]

Been doing play testing of various options with the Temujin test game.

My personal inclination has been traditionally to build a Barracks first, then a Worker. I tested three possibilities: (1) Barracks 1st; (2) Worker 1st; (3) Barracks until Pop grew to 2, then Worker, then finish Barracks. It turned out that (1) was the least beneficial in the long run, and (2) narrowly did better than (3).

I also tested various methods of tech development. It quickly became clear that the Barbarians would bring us Archery, Hunting & Fishing without us having to research them. My focus zeroed in on the sequence (A) Mining/Bronze/Agriculture vs (B) Mining/Agriculture/Bronze. It turned out that (B) was easily superior over the long haul. The reason is the timing of when the Worker can do things. With (A) he must sit and wait for 14 turns, doing nothing, at one point. Under (B), the timing works out that he can be continuously doing something. When I compared 76 turns each way, with (B) there were more farms, roads and Pop for the the 1st city (got to 4 on Turn 76 while it still had 5 turns to go (turn 81) with (A)). Everything else got done at about the same time.

My recommendations...
(1) Build a Worker first, then Barracks. After that, 2 Archers. Then a Settler. By then, the Worker will have created Mine on the Pig site, 2 farms and should chop the 2 forests to the West of the city to speed up the Settler. 2nd city in the jungle space to the South between the clams and sugar (at least in the test game), will occur turn 69, while the Worker builds roads to connect. (Most of the enemies will get their 2nd city quicker).

(2) Don't make peace with any of the enemies. As we advance in tech, the Barbarians will get better troops with which to harass them all over the map.

(3) Do Mining, then Agriculture, then Bronze, then the Wheel, then Pottery, then Animal Husbandry, then Iron Working (or Metal Casting?). Bronze, Animal Husbandry and Iron Working get the Barbarians better troops. Agriculture before Bronze Working speeds up development of farms, pop, roads, cities. Alphabet will not be as important this time because the Barbarians will get us a lot of the enemy's techs.

(4) Leave the forest E of 1st city for its hammer. Build 1st farm SW of city, 2nd farm S of city, then chop the 2 forests W, NW of city. One archer in each of the 2 cities.

 

[Thrallia]

Did 2 beat out 3 in tech production as well?

I'd think that the +2 science at first would speed everything else up.

 

[hellwitch]

in my test game i get agri and the wheel for free early too. I don't think delaying BW is a good option as in my test game 2 turns after i got BW there were 4 barb axes. I even go for IW then and this shows like a good move because the barb get few swords a turn later. Meanwhile i get all 1 lvl techs + AH. So i dont think we need to research low lvl(1-2) techs.
And for the peace/war strategy - i think that with few cease fire/declare for 1-2 turn peace could make barbs very effective in groups.
And i dont think we must build archers at all - somewhere at that time we can get axes(as this manipulated map i think the copper will be near).

 

[Lehm]

in my test game i get agri and the wheel for free early too. I don't think delaying BW is a good option as in my test game 2 turns after i got BW there were 4 barb axes. I even go for IW then and this shows like a good move because the barb get few swords a turn later. Meanwhile i get all 1 lvl techs + AH. So i dont think we need to research low lvl(1-2) techs.
And for the peace/war strategy - i think that with few cease fire/declare for 1-2 turn peace could make barbs very effective in groups.
And i dont think we must build archers at all - somewhere at that time we can get axes(as this manipulated map i think the copper will be near).

That´s exactly what I think. Nothing more to add. The two archers have no jobs at all as we expect to be alone on our island and hopefully have axeman as defence oppotunity (or even offence of course).

So I am for mining - bronze - iron
I still prefer the barracks first to let city grow to size 2 as mining the pigshill is everything the worker can do for a while and we will get another commerce from pop 2.

Oh , and we settle where we are now right?

 

[Conquistador 63]

OK, we have good points from each side, but as we need to decide at some point I'm good to go with hw and Lehm's point of view about tech: mining/bw. IW or AH or something can be evaluated later.
I think the majority goes with settling in place. If someone disagrees, please say so (I know Lehm proposed 1S).
And as we don't go mining/agri I'd go warrior first, it can be completed same time pop goes 2 if we work banana when border pops, then whip worker (if necessary) when BW(slavery) is done. Maybe we'll get a better location for troops production in city2, so maybe never barracks in capitol?

 

[da_Vinci]

OK, we have good points from each side, but as we need to decide at some point I'm good to go with hw and Lehm's point of view about tech: mining/bw. IW or AH or something can be evaluated later.
I think the majority goes with settling in place. If someone disagrees, please say so (I know Lehm proposed 1S).
And as we don't go mining/agri I'd agree barracks first, whip worker when BW(slavery) is done.

The questions are:

Production: Barracks first? Worker first? Even settler first?

Research: Mining>BW seems to be the consensus

Scout214 and I were on the phone each playing our own test game runs last night, after we got him patched up and good to go. He is my old high school chess buddy (too far back to say ), and while civ is not his primary love he is a an avid strategy gamer across board and computer variants. He has good generic strategic and tactical instincts, and is still learing details of the game mechanics nuances of civ that one get to know hanging around here.

One early worker scenario that we might keep in mind is that worker could chop a settler right after mining the pigs, if we don't want to spend any research time on first column techs. That depends on whether the scout finds some non-jungle land to settle ... a nice coastal seafood site and we could build the workboat in the capital and send it. Might be a reason to switch to worker as soon as necessary to be done by BW.

On a pure production standpoint, one citizen working the mined pig hill is as useful as three citizens in the forests: three net hammers. But, if as Th says, there is nothing to spend hammers on that is useful, is one extra commerce somewhere better than the extra hammers? Might just be, and that argues for later worker.

If we wait to whip the worker after BW ... what do we make after barracks and before BW? We have few production choices, Th's point.

In my test run, it seemed to take forever to get things done, and 2200 came and went and still no second city.

Now in our game, we can work 3F 1C after we get FC, so things will be a little faster. Any thought of Agri>Mining>BW>IW? And worker first? Farm the banana first, and then the pop growth speeds everything else. The fastest way to IW might be pop growth and even cottages, rather than a beeline? Or if not fastest, the one that makes us stronger?

That being said, if hw is pretty certain that the beeline to IW is the way to go, I am inclined to defer to his sense of this. Lm seems to support this too, and both warnmonger better than I do.

Summary:

We settle in place now.

We start the barracks

We research mining with an eye to BW

Scout the island.

We can always modify the plan ... if the scout finds a great second city site without jungle, we might want worker out with BW to chop a fast settler.

So, do we agree to the plan in bold above? Cast you vote! I say yes!

And we are playing 10 turns then handing off the save, right?

dV

 

[Lehm]

agreed, I am waiting for the "GO" order

 

[da_Vinci]

OK, we have good points from each side, but as we need to decide at some point I'm good to go with hw and Lehm's point of view about tech: mining/bw. IW or AH or something can be evaluated later.
I think the majority goes with settling in place. If someone disagrees, please say so (I know Lehm proposed 1S).
And as we don't go mining/agri I'd go warrior first, it can be completed same time pop goes 2 if we work banana when border pops, then whip worker (if necessary) when BW(slavery) is done. Maybe we'll get a better location for troops production in city2, so maybe never barracks in capitol?

We have two votes for the post #108 plan, me and Lehm.

C63 seems to agree with settle in place, and with mining first, but suggests warrior instead of barracks ... I think if we are going to be agressive early, we need barracks in capital ... if it has to build troops between infrastructure, then they might as well be good! Or it may be a troop pump anyway! But is that a minor decision ... warrior vs barracks first?

I'd like to see if we have at least 6 members on board with the plan before we launch it ... hopefully we will get additional votes today.

dV

 

[Scout214]

The questions are:

Summary:

We settle in place now.

We start the barracks

We research mining with an eye to BW

Scout the island.

My vote:
1. Settle in place.
2. Start Worker. Testing shows in the long haul does not adversely affect Pop growth; in fact, it is slightly better than Barracks to allow Pop growth initially. That depends on finishing Agri before the Barbarians would provide it. By Turn 76, Pop in Capital reaches 4 despite building a Worker first, and the 2nd city is in place.
3. Mining/Agri/BW. Testing reveals a SIGNIFICANT difference from Mining/BW. Worker gets to develop infrastructure instead of sitting around, doing nothing, waiting for BW. Barbarians will procure all of the level one techs over time, to be sure, but not on a timely basis.
4. Scout the island with an eye to where to place the second city as soon as possible.

I suggest that everyone play out the different test scenarios to see graphically when all of the elements of development occur in comparison with each other for all of the possible, viable options.

 

[Thrallia]

My vote:
1. Settle in place
2. Start barracks, switch to worker at size 2
3. Research Mining/BW(and I'd throw pottery in right after BW, before IW)
4. Scout the island

I think we'll get Agri pretty fast from the barbs anyway, since it is one of the very first techs the AIs research. The reason to go barracks first is not because of the pop growth, but because of the science growth we'll get from having an extra 2 commerce early(since hammers don't matter for workers anyway we can continue working the riverside tiles for commerce)

Say Mining is 150 beakers...if we have 8 commerce, it'll take us about 18 turns to research it...if we have those extra two commerce, it will only take us 15 turns to research it.
Bronze Working, assuming it is about 300 beakers, would take 38 turns to research at 8 commerce, and with 10 commerce it would be 30 turns.

that +2 is a 20% increase in research speeds, which I feel is definitely worth a wait of a few turns for a worker that only has a single mine to build right away anyway.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I might repeat myself but here goes:
I'm probably the worst warmonger in the team, and in a solo game I might go in a way similar to Scout214. BUT I want to learn to play different, so I prefer to go with Lehm/hw (among the best warmongers here).
At this point I'm not 100% convinced if one path is clearly better than any other. But my reasoning behind my last post is that warrior first helps pop growth, timed exactly to start worker with pop=2. We'll eventually need 1 cheap military police, but it's not 100% sure barracks will be useful this early in the game, and hammers can decay if we go as Thrallia suggests. His other suggestion (pottery) is great, cheap early granary helps with aggressive whipping.
In the end, I'm ok either way, so if there is further voting I'm abstaining.

 

[Thrallia]

I'm fine with warrior first as well, the main thing I'm pushing for is to grow to size 2 for the increased science rate before building the worker.

 

[da_Vinci]

I've got some time today to revise the test map with the bananas and run some simulations and post results, which I will start shortly. I will post the map as soon as I have it, so that other can test with it as well. I''ll keep a turn by turn, side by side spreadsheet of the results of what appear to be our three main options:

Settle in place (all agree on this)

1. Research mining>BW>IW, start warrior first (C63 plan)

2. Research mining>BW>IW, start barracks first (hw/Lm/dV/Th plan, except that Th likes pottery before IW)

3. Research mining>ag>BW, start worker first (S214 plan)

The competing goals here are whether to focus on our own overall development, in which case the S214 plan may be best, or to focus on arming the barbs with axes and swords ASAP, in which case a mining>BW>IW plan is the way to go. It is likely that no amount of simulation will solve the strategic question as it is a matter of tradeoffs, unless pop growth from agri is sufficient to speed IW similar to the direct IW path.

The warrior vs. barracks question is more tactial than strategic. That might have an answer out of the sim.

I am going to simulate the results assuming that we don't settle a second city before IW.

Hang in there Lehm, we will have an answer by the end of the day!

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Maybe if settle in place discussion is settled Lehm could just do it, save it, and post another screenie as it would show a few more tiles so we get a more advanced sim?

 

[da_Vinci]

Maybe if settle in place discussion is settled Lehm could just do it, save it, and post another screenie as it would show a few more tiles so we get a more advanced sim?

That sounds like a good idea ... I should have thought of that too! Lehm, why don't you do that? You may have to pick a build in the city to get out of the "what to build" popup, but as long as you save before end turn, we can always change that.

If there is seafood on the north coast, that would certainly change things a lot!

I am attaching the my revision of what we know now, I'll go ahead with the sim in case there is no seafood north, then its already done.

For those who did not see it in the 04 thread, R1 is way until about August 2. He asked me to manage the team mechanics for 05 while he is gone. Hopefully, not a Prince John to his Richard

dV

 

[Lehm]

And here it is... tadadadaaaaa

So, no more information for us except that it was right not to move the settler N to check what´s out there.

From planning a bit ahead we know that the warrior first would be fnished by the same turn as our city grows to size two. We need 8 turns with working the pighill and we get 16 hammers. Then the borders will expand and then we will work the banana losing 1 hammer but revieving one more food and one more commerce. So another 6 turns later (after 14 turns at all) our city will grow to size two and the warrior comes out. As we can see at the screenshot we´ll get mining by the same turn too.

After it it will take us about 20 turns for discovering bronze. So that could to build the worker.

If we decide to build the barracks first ... (which need 23 turns at the moment when we not decide to work a forrest as second tile after growing to size two) ... we will almost have our city as size 3 when finishing the barracks and starting the worker right after it.

Worker first is not useful IMO as he won´t have anything to do.

So warrior first or barracks first in my eyes...

 

[da_Vinci]

Thanks Lehm!

I am posting some screenshot of my simulation of the worker first option, I'll need to switch to my other computer to upload the spreadsheet.

I think we will have to research Agri on our own at some point, as turn 42 arrives, and agg is 6 turns away if we research it, but still some 28 turns away if we wait, as we are only getting 3 bpt from the barbs. I think we have to get the banana farmed before turn 70!

Which means that a worker first, agri first start might be worth looking at.

We might have to consider whether getting agg and pottery is more useful to us than getting swords is to the barbs. If there is a barb pop cap, then they might not make many swords. But that is down the line somewhat.

Also, we get archery at turn 36, so do we want our military police on the home front to be archers, or warriors? If we like archers better, start with barracks, then we might never have to build a warrior. Up to turn 45 I see no "fear for our safety" unhappiness points, so the local police can wait.

A point on my turn numbering convention in teh spreadsheet: Counter says 0first turn. I still consider first turn to be turn 1, and counter to represent number of completed turns. Current turn is counter + 1.

Since some stuff happens in interturn, here is what I do with that:

Our stuff, I log on the turn we can use it. So techincally we learn mining, finish warrior, grow to pop 2 at the end of turn 14. But since we can't use that until turn 15, I log it as us having it on turn 15.

Ignore the red italics, I changed my mind. No sense doing it two ways, and it is clear from the production change being below the pop growth or improvement completion that it is now, for us too, logged the turn that we get it, even though we got it at the end of that turn, and could not use it that turn. Should match the logs better.

The updated spreadsheets below reflect this.

For AI stuff, like founding Budd, I use the turn the AI did it (13 in this case). We don't see the message until turn 14, but to have beaten them, we would have had to found in turn 13 (not that in this case we are trying), so logging as turn 13 is more useful, IMHO.

Not saying everone needs to do it that way, but that is what you need to know to understand my chart.

See the final charts and saves in post #124. I'm deleting the early ones from here to save my attachment space.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

I am convinced of a couple of things from my sims so far:

1. Barracks first is better than warrior first. It does not require timing pop and build together, so we can push max hammers from the start. This may shave a turn of the BW date. We don't build early warriors, and then we have the choice of archers instead of warriors for Military Police.

Note that we did not lose any hammers on barracks waiting for the worker. And no unhappiness from "fear for our safety" occured.

2. We cannot afford to beeline to IW after BW. We won't get agri or fishing until turn 70 or so if we do that. After BW, in 10 to 12 turns we can research both agri and fishing ourselves (thanks to the barb head start), then go for IW. That lets us build farms, and some WB to explore, and to net the seafood that we hope city #2 will have. Otherwise, our economy is just too idle while we wait for IW!

So, while we wait for me to add the S214 plan sim, do we agree with points 1 and 2 above?

dV