SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

This is how I understand klarius' info in layman's terms... ;)

For our 100% culture, garrisoned cities, we can determine the WW points (in terms of % :p) by comparing the city population and the # of :mad: faces. This is useful because 1) it can give us an estimate of how much WW comes from a particular AI and 2) it tells us whether it's safe to grow our city to its next pop-point.

City pop:
pop1
0 :mad: (from war weariness) => WW<100%
1 mad => 100%<=WW<200%
2 mad => WW>=200%

pop2
0 :mad: => WW<50% <----- from example below
1 mad => 50%<=WW<100%
2 mad => 100%<=WW<150%
3 mad => WW>=150%

pop3
0 :mad: => WW<33.34%
1 mad => 33.34%<=WW<66.67% <-----from example below
2 mad => 66.67%<=WW<100%
3 mad => 100%<=WW<133.34%
4 mad => WW>=133.34% <== This is catastrophic, and we're already approaching it.

pop4
0 :mad: => WW<25%
1 mad => 25%<=WW<50% <== this is our magic number for poprushing pop4>2
2 mad => 50%<=WW<75%
3 mad => 75%<=WW<100%
4 mad => 100%<=WW<125%
5 mad => WW>=125%

So when jesusin DoPs Toku on T0, we hope WW will drop below 100% but otherwise this won't tell us much, because MW is at pop2, Drojf at pop1.

When MW grows to pop3, when can determine if, perhaps, DoP with Toku got us below 66.67%. That would tell us that Toku probably contributed at least 33% of our total WW. If not, then we can assume that Asoka is really contributing a huge amount and in the last turns before DoP with Asoka, we may go over 100% or even 133.34%.

Here's an example of how to use this info when poprushing and growing population:

MW is at pop3 with a happiness cap of 6 :). It's showing 5 :mad:. We know we have 3 :mad: from pop3, and (for example) 1 :mad: from a poprush that will go away in 5 turns. That means we have 1 :mad: from WW, which means we have 33.34%<=WW<66.67% (see green arrow above). Since we don't know if WW is less than 50%, we don't know if we'll get 1 or 2 :mad: at pop4. This means we probably DO NOT want to grow to pop4 until the turn we plan to poprush pop4>2, because if we grow too soon, we may get 2 :mad: from WW plus 4 :mad: from pop4 and 1 :mad: from previous poprush = 7 :mad: and one citizen will eat food and won't work. (Unless, of course, you decide you don't mind that guy striking...)

On the other hand, in the above example, if we see that Drojf has pop2 and only 2 :mad: (which means 0 :mad: from war weariness), then we know WW<50% (see blue arrow above), so we know we can grow MW to pop4.
 
I would prefer confirmation from more team players. I vote yes...
Well, 1. klarius proposed it. 2. I seconded it. 3. Erkon and 4. Murky agree, so 5. jesusin contstitutes a quorum and a majority. Seems democratic enough to me...

and as far as that goes, it conforms to Gnejs' War Plan...
 
Understood.
Shall I do it now?
Well, I would say yes, though Erkon probably wants another few weeks of discussion.
Nobody has mentioned total rejection of gifting EK lately.
Again, IMO, it's a SG - not a democrazy game.

I wouldn't even mind if you play like ten turns after you have the info about WW, if you think you can judge it right. That's how SGs normally are played - drivers do the turns according to their judgment and ask if something doubtful comes up.
You just have to stand the nasty comments afterwards :D.
 
Well, I would say yes, though Erkon probably wants another few weeks of discussion.
Nobody has mentioned total rejection of gifting EK lately.
Again, IMO, it's a SG - not a democrazy game.

I wouldn't even mind if you play like ten turns after you have the info about WW, if you think you can judge it right. That's how SGs normally are played - drivers do the turns according to their judgment and ask if something doubtful comes up.
You just have to stand the nasty comments afterwards :D.

:lol: What's the worst that can happen?
 
To be honest, I agree with klarius: let the player decide. As long as we have a pretty well thought through general strategy I won't mind if the player makes some choices of his own. Just not anything totally different than what has been discussed.

In this case, I think we have a consensus on the important parts:
Settle BPW first, gift EK, research HBR, send units to Saladin and once we have a bridge, to Isa/Asoka. That is enough for me.
 
To be honest, I agree with klarius: let the player decide. As long as we have a pretty well thought through general strategy I won't mind if the player makes some choices of his own. Just not anything totally different than what has been discussed.

In this case, I think we have a consensus on the important parts:
Settle BPW first, gift EK, research HBR, send units to Saladin and once we have a bridge, to Isa/Asoka. That is enough for me.

I don't think we've ever had a more thoroughly discussed turn set.
 
Well, I would say yes, though Erkon probably wants another few weeks of discussion.
Nobody has mentioned total rejection of gifting EK lately.
Again, IMO, it's a SG - not a democrazy game.

I wouldn't even mind if you play like ten turns after you have the info about WW, if you think you can judge it right. That's how SGs normally are played - drivers do the turns according to their judgment and ask if something doubtful comes up.
You just have to stand the nasty comments afterwards :D.
I'm not going to scream and rant if jesusin plays more turns, but I would like to state that I find your point of view oversimplified.

Yes, when it is jesusin's turnset he has free, unilateral authority over all his moves. But a Succession Game is not just a game where one player follows another. It's also a team game.

So I think what you refer to as a "democrazy" game leaves out the team aspect of a SG, thus oversimplifies it. Maybe it comes down to you and I having different definitions of what constitutes team play or teamwork.

For me, there are momentary decisions and there are momentous decisions. We trust each other to make all the momentary decisions, we like to at the very least discuss and hopefully agree on the momentous ones.

Personally, I think the more we can play together in harmony the more we'll all get out of it and the closer we'll come together. If, however, you don't like that sort of understanding of teamwork, then I can also understand you not enjoying it as much.

Aside: As for planning ahead 50 turns, etc., I do that to find out if strategies are at all feasible. Gnejs comes up with an outlandish plan and I like to know how realistic it is that we'll have any units to send across the ocean on T34 or T37. It's not about expecting the game to play out according to the excel chart, detail by detail, for the next 50 turns.

It is true, though, that in doing the excel chart, one sees that certain things are realistic, only if that worker starts the chop 1 turn sooner, or 6 turns earlier we switch from hroses to farm to get 2 more :food: into the granary. Such microplanning is is important for each turnset, individually, if Murky Waters wants to approach the Gold Standard set by the Russians.
 
T101. Worker stopped. Must remember to give him orders. Copper razed. Peace with Toku by gifting him EK. Reversible actions taken: research HBR, build OBE and work Gold.

WW was 2 in EK when Spear left EK.

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In this case, I think we have a consensus on the important parts:
Settle BPW first, gift EK, research HBR, send units to Saladin and once we have a bridge, to Isa/Asoka. That is enough for me.
I agreed with HBR but I don't get the impression anyone else has.
 
Ok, WW over 66.6% but below 100%. We don't know about the 75% threshold.
I would go ahead and hand build the settler in 4 turns. Pasture on pigs if you like (worker cannot help with roads). We can re-mine it anyway :p.
Research slider to 100%. I'm ok with HBR, but that really means we should settle on the rice.
Next turn the culture border of MW will expand and take the three tiles north of EK and the mountain. Spear can then move adjacent to EK, so it doesn't get forgotten.
 
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