SGOTM 06 - Fifth Element

[culdeus]

Merum, 2 holes in your list:


have carefully read my #69 and 70? IMHO they are the key to success.

I think the CoL slingshot is the only safe play. It's just that there isn't a great place to plop it down at the moment. I'd like to find a good site to use it's extra culture before using all the chops that could be used for units.

Is there evidence that there is more land to the W through the narrow path or can you see the sea in the shadow?

I just wonder what "heavily modified" means. Shouldn't be long to get a feel for that.

 

[Strauss]

Signing in. Will catch up on the game tomorrow.

 

[BLubmuz]

Welcome on board, Strauss, we (at least me) thought you've lost interest.

You got a lot to read to catch, also to catch our "style" if any.

@Culdeus
yes, we agree, a CS sling is not accetptable to be tried with all those techs already researched. here we say "chi s'accontenta, gode" that can be "who is pleased (even for not much) takes delight".

Not actual evidence, just a sensation, given by the kind of land i can see and by the knowledge of Gyathaar: what kind of AW can it be with only 1 rival in your continent, and at Prince level, in addition.
No, i can bet we'll find an aggressive AI in this landmass, if not 2.

Try to imagine we alone with MM:
2 pillaging stacks (archer with drill 2+ axe c1) to harass his 2 cities until the actual stack is ready, then peacefully research til Astro and rifling (or chemistry) and conquest the other continent...
too easy.

It's for this reason i wanna push the research now that we're quiet.

and don't forget that with the cost of 2 axes (52*2=104) we build 3 archers (37*3=111) well, almost.

 

[Civicide]

I have the save; looking at it now. Will play overnight most likely, I'm on a fairly nocturnal schedule.

I like researching archery right now. If we're going for the Oracle, we want it before we start on the tech push, and the 6 turns of research don't really slow us down at the moment. Hooking up our copper will be our next priority, and AH will still be in in time to grab our cows.

Agriculture can wait for the time being, at least until after AH. It should be useful for improving the tiles (particularly around our fresh water lake) but that's a lower priority at the moment. We'll want to reveal horses and start working our cows first.

Plan for my TS seems to be:

Worker plans: finish hooking up gold, mine copper, hook up copper. This should take 12 turns, if I'm not mistaken (building a mine is 7 turns, right?) so everything should be hooked up before AH is completed. I should be able to hook up the copper with a single road, on the dyes.

Going Archery -> AH, we should get there in 17 turns, so the 5 intermission turns will be spent putting a road on the cows and getting two turn in of pre-chopping on the grassland hill NE of the cows.

Research Plans: Archery (6 turns), then AH (11 turns), then ... Mysticism I suppose (6 turns). You can make an argument for Agriculture instead but our worker will be plenty busy pre-chopping.

London Plans: Continue on barracks until completion (14 turns), then archers until end of turnset. Although the whip will be ready in 5 turns, I do NOT plan on whipping, and I don't think we should be whipping London below pop4 once the copper and cows are improved.

Scouting Plans: I will do a little scouting to the E with the Med 1 warrior, but not wander him too far afield.

Any disagreement on any of these plans?

 

[BLubmuz]

@ Civ
Your plans sounds good to me, just some adjustement, if i can:
Worker: unfortunately you'll need to complete the road (the one on copper + a 2nd one in the dyes or in the forested gl hill) this way you'll need: 3 turns to road the gold +1 to move on copper +6 for mine +3 road +3(4) for the last road for a total 16 (17) turns: the road on the forest hill is almost useless until construction, and you'll delay 1 turn to pasture cows, so, better road dyes.

Agree on research, archery-AH-Myst.

build: OK this one too, but start an archer right after the tech is online, then switch again to barracks and after that complete the archer: this will keep us safe if in need and we lost nothing.

scouting: Better bring the medic in London, swapping the other warrior on copper... you'll never know... just few turns and we can use the archer as scout.

Just to be clear, i've tried this sequence in my test, see report on my #69.
Agreed for whipping too, we need London at s.5 for the Oracle.

 

[Civicide]

@ Civ
Your plans sounds good to me, just some adjustement, if i can:
Worker: unfortunately you'll need to complete the road (the one on copper + a 2nd one in the dyes or in the forested gl hill) this way you'll need: 3 turns to road the gold +1 to move on copper +6 for mine +3 road +3(4) for the last road for a total 16 (17) turns: the road on the forest hill is almost useless until construction, and you'll delay 1 turn to pasture cows, so, better road dyes.

I'll test this, but I'm pretty sure we won't need to put a road on the copper in order to connect it. IF we were connected to the river, we would have gotten the copper with no roads built, and a road on the dye will connect us to the river. So, I'm pretty sure I can squeeze a couple of extra worker turns out.

As I said, though, I'll test it.

build: OK this one too, but start an archer right after the tech is online, then switch again to barracks and after that complete the archer: this will keep us safe if in need and we lost nothing.

I thought about this, and the only thing we lose is actually the experience on the first archer. This is a good idea, though. That one archer's exp shouldn't be overly important, and it gets us out and scouting quicker.

scouting: Better bring the medic in London, swapping the other warrior on copper... you'll never know... just few turns and we can use the archer as scout.

Good point, no sense risking the medic warrior out on its own.

 

[BLubmuz]

@Civ
We need the road on copper sooner or later (to move south), since the worker is there, better do it, IMHO.

We loose nothing if you switch barracks/archer, then again to barracks 1 turn before the archer completes, then complete the archer.

But if you prefere complete the archer to scout, n.p., there's plenty of prays to gain XP in the wild!

 

[greatbeyond]

I didn't see the answer to where Mansa"s Scout came from. Could you mark it on your screen shot?

I am also inclined to think we are on the main landmass, with probably at least 1 other besides Mansa. The length of time it took for the scout to reach us, could indicate a long narrow, snaky continent, like the option for "Big and Small" maps. It could also be that he created the map to be like a hub world, but this time with us at the middle.

If it's going to be some time before we hookup the Bronze we could delay the Barracks, if all we are producing is archers, because they already start with the first promotion. I feel there will be plenty of barbarians to build up our units' experience.

I keep forgetting about pre chopping

 

[Civicide]

@Civ
We loose nothing if you switch barracks/archer, then again to barracks 1 turn before the archer completes, then complete the archer.

Ah, I see what you're saying here. Kind of a contingency plan in case we're attacked. That makes sense. I think I'll do that. I can scout with the non-medic warrior.

Inside the spoiler tags is the only city location that's really jumping out at me so far. This would make a pretty good commerce city, I think: lots of river grassland, fresh water, quick trade connection to our capital (one road), the gold mine, 2 food resources, and 3 other hills for a decent amount of production. But, it also has 4 mountains, and will take a while to set up as it is surrounded in jungle for the moment. Still, it should be able to work the rice and the plains hill to start, which is decent enough for army production.

Spoiler :

 

[Civicide]

TS Played, 20 turns. HERE IS THE SAVE

Contact made with two more civs: Alexander and Hannibal. Hannibal was a scout that came through the pass to our East; he is currently scouting us out (I didn't get a good window to attack, he was on a jungle hill across from a river and I didn't want to risk it). Alexander was a work boat that came across our SW shore, looking like it was heading NW.

Spoiler :

If I had to guess, I'd say that Alex is to our South and Hannibal is to our SE.

Found Timbuktu:

Spoiler :

It's close, almost due east, and on a hill

Tacitus informs us we are the most powerful civ on the planet:

Spoiler :

On the home front, everything went as expected, except that a jungle grew over the bananas we were working I switched over to the other bananas for now, but we're short one commerce. Archery is in, AH is in, Mysticism is close. An archer is one turn away, barracks are close, so London didn't actually build anything this TS.

No Horses in our FC, there are some to the NE, and over to the E.

Here are some overviews:

Spoiler :

The South:

The East:

The North

The Autolog:

Spoiler :

Turn 40/660 (2800 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:33:49]

Turn 41/660 (2770 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:33:58]
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Churchill(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 42/660 (2740 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:34:22]
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 43/660 (2710 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:34:53]
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Churchill(England), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 44/660 (2680 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:35:31]

Turn 45/660 (2650 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:35:45]
Tech learned: Archery
Hinduism founded in a distant land
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Churchill(England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 46/660 (2620 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:35:56]
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (11 Turns)
London begins: Archer (10 turns)

Turn 47/660 (2590 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:37:05]

Turn 48/660 (2560 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:37:18]
Contact made: Carthaginian Empire
Attitude Change: Hannibal(Carthage) towards Churchill(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 49/660 (2530 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:37:34]

Turn 50/660 (2500 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:37:58]
A Mine was built near London

Turn 51/660 (2470 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:38:30]
Contact made: Greek Empire
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Churchill(England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 52/660 (2440 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:39:11]

Turn 53/660 (2410 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:40:04]

Turn 54/660 (2380 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:40:58]
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 55/660 (2350 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:41:21]
London begins: Archer (1 turns)
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 56/660 (2320 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:41:54]
Research begun: Mysticism (6 Turns)
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Hannibal(Carthage), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 57/660 (2290 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:43:00]

Turn 58/660 (2260 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:44:01]

Turn 59/660 (2230 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:44:31]

Turn 60/660 (2200 BC) [17-Dec-2007 21:44:58]

 

[Merum]

except that a jungle grew over the bananas we were working I switched over to the other bananas for now, but we're short one commerce.

Hence the agriculture first. Jungle doesn't grow on improved tiles. But what do I know, I've only played about 50 AW test games. Now that commerce (and the extra food for farming the river bananas) is gone til IW.

 

[Civicide]

Hence the agriculture first. Jungle doesn't grow on improved tiles. But what do I know, I've only played about 50 AW test games. Now that commerce (and the extra food for farming the river bananas) is gone til IW.

Woah, take it easy. Going agri before archery wouldn't have done anything in this case, and unless we put farming those bananas at the highest priority, there was probably no way to avoid this. Just bad luck.

 

[Merum]

I've got the save. Will play tomorrow sometime.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK Civ, well done, pity for the banana.
But it's only bad luck, Merum: agri or not, our worker lacked the time to improve them, and lose 1 gold is not a big problem.

Now we have a better knowledge of our situation, and if we not move fast - and well - we can be toasted.

I think we can prosecute my plan, and now we got a spot for our 2nd city: where the warrior is in the first of the serie of 3 SS, or 1S of that.
Anyway, i'll try to open the save to try a dot map.

The city will be settled, protected by 1 archer + 1 axe, while our second archer will stay around London's borders with the 2 warriors to protect London and the copper.
As Civ said, it should be connected along the river.
No improvements there, until we have enough forces to protect them, even aggressively.

As Merum said, if we got ivory, and can deny metals to our rivals, it's done:
WE+cats+some axe are a guarantee.

For now i'm still more convinced to exactly follow my plan.

Merum, i rarely tried to impose my points of view to the team, and do not played all those AW games.
But i found a path (for research and builds) that seems to be optimal in this situation, and i would like to follow it.
If (but i prefer when) it will be completed, and things will be driven also by the AI and the RNG, i'll stop to spam my convinctions. Until that point (Oracle completed in 1120 BC for CoL), please propose only slight variations, or try to find ways to improve it.
It's probably the first time we got a clear mid-time plan, that can work because not affected by random events.
Also, don't forget that the team drove me to this plan, since my initial thoughts were appreciably differents.

 

[dutchfire]

The proposed site near the ivory looks good. If we're going to take it, we could backfill a bit by building a city near the southern gold, rice and cow. This city will now be shielded, so it can have improvements (although not on the cow just yet, that tile is still on the border). Leaving a gold so close to our capital would be a waste.

Is there any space in our queues to build another city before the Oracle, or will we have to wait?

 

[BLubmuz]

No Dutch, max we can afford an axe or an archer if in trouble.
In addition, a 3rd city will drop our research, even if close.

I was thinking to the hill on the coast for that, we need a coastal city, but let me make a dot map.

Your thoughts for the rest of my plan?

 

[dutchfire]

Okay, that will have to wait then.

I think the first city is indeed best placed where the warrior is standing in the first screenshot. That site is better than 1S of it IMO, as it saves a forest.

I only just noticed that Timbuktu is THAT close. And there's a lot of forests in between, fighting skirmishers there will be hard.


By the way, is there a way to display which tiles are forests and which are jungles better? I'm having a lot of trouble seeing the difference. Perhaps taking screenshots with a bare map only?

 

[BLubmuz]

Dutch, the bare map can't help much, perhaps the yelds.
I use Blue Marble, the jungle is appreciably greener than the forest.

In a couple hours i'll be able to load the save, and ill'use those attentions in the dot map.

 

[Merum]

Blubmuz, I've posted very detailed plans as well, and they've been ignored. I've shown how it was possible to get Stonehenge AND the Oracle, without sacrificing military, by using whip overflows and strategic chops, and then use the Oracle for MC, while using the priest for CoL. This strategy also doubled our priest GPP, allowing us to also bulb theocracy when the second priest comes out.

However, I feel that all of my posts, if they were even read at all, were simply ignored due to a thing in the US that we call "Not Invented Here". I feel like I've simply wasted my time.

It's also not the first time the team has had a coherent plan. They've just never been followed.

Therefore, I will toss all the experience that I gained into the trash, and follow the "plan" exactly, whether I think it's the best course of action or not.

 

[BLubmuz]

Dammit, Merum brake, stop, do something.

I noticed your post about SH, perhaps i missed the Oracle, and i remember the thing about Theo.

OK, i'm looking for consensus, not to impose something (not that i feel i can, anyway).

Now i go back to find and read with more care that post, or posts.

In the meantime, here is the save at turn 21 of my test game the copper is now in the right position.
Try to follow what we've done until now, then try your plan.

Please, try to realize your plan, post a report, and if it's better than mine, happy to change my mind.

edit
found, it's your # 56.
There you describe a test game where you built SH and NOT the Oracle, you show a tech/build path, but you never mentionded this can be used for THIS game.

So, please try to convince me with a research/build path with turns, like mine.
I repeat: if it's better than mine, welcome.
Or if in any case is useful to improve mine, well spent time.
Or if it's not better, and then you're convinced of mine, better this too.

And don't look at my avatar wishing to kill my cat, you're too far away, and she's sleeping on my legs.