SGOTM 06 - Fifth Element

BLubmuz · Dec 18, 2007

Merum, i've read, and re-read your #56.
It seems to me a "food for thought" more than a plan.

I can be wrong, but i can't find an actual plan there.

First of all you're talkin' about a different map, and you proposed some ideas to be developed and adapted to our actual situation.

My simulation, even on a different map, reproduces exactly our starting situation, and it's detailed with which tech and which build in turns, to match exactly with this game.

I just think it's a good plan, not "the best plan ever", and that at the present there's NOT an alternative, so detailed plan to follow.

As i said in my above post, anything to improve it is welcome, but to persuade me you'll need to be as detailed as i was.

In this way, we'll have precise targets for any TS, and with a small amount of luck, we can follow and complete it or any alternative.

Dot map made.
Before you think i went crazy, please have a look at the resources and at the f... mountains.

Spoiler :

I'd prefer the blue one with stone, but not food in that case.
If we think we can left fish and cows, we can shift the Green 1N, and consequently the Yellow.
The Red MUST be our first city, for the ivory. This location can be better than 1N, but much depends from what there's in the deep fog.
Probably the Blue can be the third.

culdeus · Dec 18, 2007

deleted

Red site looks good. Perhaps 1E so no border pop and still on the river.

Merum · Dec 19, 2007

Guys, I've had a disaster happen tonight that has taken up the time I intended to be playing. A water pipe burst in my master bathroom, and flooded the entire bedroom and garage. What a mess. I can play in the morning, or take a skip. Sorry to hold up the game.

Also, please disregard my earlier tantrum. I'm under a lot of stress, and I shouldn't have taken it out on you guys. I'm sorry about that.

However, just for the record, I played this earlier:

I'll attach the save to this post, for any who care to look. I also have a decent army, and a barracks is building. Copper, gold, and cows are up and hooked, forces are in place to harass Izzy and Shaka, and mass production of heavy duty military is ready to commence. I took Metal Casting with the Oracle, and a prophet is due in 21 to give me CoL.

I purposely did not use my foreknowledge of Shaka's location to raze him in 9 turns, as I was lucky enough to do the first time I played this map.

It's possible to do it faster, but I didn't do any chops. there are 90 hammers worth of chop there, which could have cut the Oracle build time considerably.

Regarding the dotmap: I think the blue spot is probably the best second city site. What I'm worried about is the spacing of the cities.I have two questions that I think we need to consider:

1. Do we need to put the cities closer together for better defense?
2. Will we want to put a city on the choke point to keep Hanni out (Assuming he's over there) or do it with a fort?

BLubmuz · Dec 19, 2007

Merum, don't worry, i suppose i know well your situation, and if you add a water pipe to the equation... bah, back to the game.

No need to skip or else, we're not in a hurry.

I got your save opened while writing this, and i mainly note this:
- NO 2nd city
- You're still researching writing in turn 117, in my test it was done in turn 75 (i noticed you researched other techs, but...)
- Oracle in 760 BC is risky, highly, even for Prince (imagine if in the other continent we have an industrious civ, maybe with marble)
I noticed you didn't chopped, but perhaps we can consider to vary my plan with a 2nd worker chop, to help to quickly improve our second city.

No, better choose the safe way, in case we can try to chop SH in our second city.
But don't forget we got a lot of calendar resources, and that we'll need them.
If we can build a temple in London to add a priest we'll have more GP points than with SH: plus the benefits to run a specialist and the ones to have a temple which never obsoletes - we got enough food to do it.

I proposed the red city first to ensure us ivory, but it's not a great spot (btw, 1E as suggested by Culdeus can be better, but we need to scout the area).
I think the blue one can be better: horses ready, decent food and production, closer to the capital.
Last but not least, some early chariot for commando actions can be useful.

If we choose so, we MUST keep some unit to guard the ivory, to avoid anyone to settle there.

Also, remember that, to LB CoL with a GPr. we need to know both medi and poly, not know masonry and consequently Monotheism.
Lacking knowledge of masonry blocks construction, it's a prerequisite.

Choosing MC with the Oracle is highly tempting, but the benefits we can have from having a religion and mainly from the courthouses, will surpass the beakers earned in the "change" in the mid-term.

Another point:
Timbuktu is on a hill, and i can bet all the AI capitals are: catapults are mandatory!

All the above to say that my plan is better than yours and that i insist on that?
Well frankly, yes!

Not because it's mine, give me some credit of being humble (and smart) enough to admit my faults.
Please give some kind of feedback on this before play, and if you can find some way to improve it, the better.

Take it easy!

edit
i can do this, it's still the last post...
an idea comes in mind, let me make another test before play.

BLubmuz · Dec 19, 2007

Made another test, trying SH in city2.
It was built IaFAL 4 turns before completion, in 805 BC.
York was founded in turn 82 (1540BC) 1E of horses (blue city).
This can be improved by road/chop first, then mine the hill NE of cows.

Then build a second worker in London, chop first, then mine the hill 1E of dyes.

After that, send the workers to connect/improve York.

I was short in units, 'cause SH, so better forget it, build barracks in York.
The Oracle is slightly dealyed (we build a worker before), but it comes in turn 98 (1060BC). I think we can take this risk.
It can come online faster if we chop the forest W, but i like to spare it for after Math.

I was not short in absolute, but for our plans to harass, i was.

So, better go for mathematics after writing, mainly to improve the chopping.
Then agri, pottery, masonry and construction.

Eventually, IW after agri, it can be useful to see iron.

Merum · Dec 19, 2007

In my sample game, I didn't build a second city because I planned to never build settlers, but take cities by conquest instead.

However, I agree that maybe this strategy is too risky for a competition game, and we should probably make Oracle the priority. I think we should try to grab Stonehenge after the oracle, if for no other reason than to get the gold from a failure, which will do well to keep us in research for quite some time. If we only put hammers into it from whip overflows (Those were the only hammers that went into the wonders I built) then we won't really have to sacrifice other production significantly to do it. Doing it in the same city that builds the Oracle would double the GP points there.

What do you think?

EDIT: Anyway, I will try to get some more sleep now, and play this afternoon.

BLubmuz · Dec 19, 2007

What do i think?
First of all that we put in the SH hammers we can use for units.

If we choose to do this, you listed 2 possible targets:
1) Actually try to build it: in this case, better in London, for the reason you stated (2 more GP points). We can chop another forest, sending only 1 worker to York, and if you can figure how to creatively use the whip, can be acceptable.
2) Make money with it: start it in York, send both workers there.
and if we complete it?

Ça va sans dir: 1 archer in York + 1 axe around, archer on copper with medic1 warrior, the remaining warrior back home to guard London.

I'm in favor of 1, barracks in York.
But probably more in favor for units.

To you the choice, the main target is the Oracle for CoL.
Ah, and the strategy "settle by the axe" worked well in GotM 25 (to be more accurate: "settle by the chariot"), but even if it was Emperor, i was in a small map, and not AW. BTW, submitted a decent win.

dutchfire · Dec 19, 2007

BLubmuz said:
Merum, i've read, and re-read your #56.
It seems to me a "food for thought" more than a plan.

I can be wrong, but i can't find an actual plan there.

First of all you're talkin' about a different map, and you proposed some ideas to be developed and adapted to our actual situation.

My simulation, even on a different map, reproduces exactly our starting situation, and it's detailed with which tech and which build in turns, to match exactly with this game.

I just think it's a good plan, not "the best plan ever", and that at the present there's NOT an alternative, so detailed plan to follow.

As i said in my above post, anything to improve it is welcome, but to persuade me you'll need to be as detailed as i was.

In this way, we'll have precise targets for any TS, and with a small amount of luck, we can follow and complete it or any alternative.

Dot map made.
Before you think i went crazy, please have a look at the resources and at the f... mountains.

Spoiler :

I'd prefer the blue one with stone, but not food in that case.
If we think we can left fish and cows, we can shift the Green 1N, and consequently the Yellow.
The Red MUST be our first city, for the ivory. This location can be better than 1N, but much depends from what there's in the deep fog.
Probably the Blue can be the third.

I don't really like the blue dot. It depends too much on the cows, without the cows it doesn't have enough food, and the cows are on the border, so chances are that they're going to get pillaged. In that context, yellow dot is better, it has got it's most important tiles near the core. It's a bit low on production though, but the whip could help that.
I'd try to keep red dot closer to home, by moving it 1 N. That way, upkeep should be slightly less, and it can be reinforced easier.
Green dot looks right to me. It does have a lot of jungle though (thanks for posting a screenshot with yields on!). It should probably be one of the later cities.

Merum said:
Guys, I've had a disaster happen tonight that has taken up the time I intended to be playing. A water pipe burst in my master bathroom, and flooded the entire bedroom and garage. What a mess. I can play in the morning, or take a skip. Sorry to hold up the game.

Also, please disregard my earlier tantrum. I'm under a lot of stress, and I shouldn't have taken it out on you guys. I'm sorry about that.

However, just for the record, I played this earlier:

I'll attach the save to this post, for any who care to look. I also have a decent army, and a barracks is building. Copper, gold, and cows are up and hooked, forces are in place to harass Izzy and Shaka, and mass production of heavy duty military is ready to commence. I took Metal Casting with the Oracle, and a prophet is due in 21 to give me CoL.

I purposely did not use my foreknowledge of Shaka's location to raze him in 9 turns, as I was lucky enough to do the first time I played this map.

It's possible to do it faster, but I didn't do any chops. there are 90 hammers worth of chop there, which could have cut the Oracle build time considerably.

Regarding the dotmap: I think the blue spot is probably the best second city site. What I'm worried about is the spacing of the cities.I have two questions that I think we need to consider:

1. Do we need to put the cities closer together for better defense?
2. Will we want to put a city on the choke point to keep Hanni out (Assuming he's over there) or do it with a fort?

I hope you can get your problems with your water pipe fixed.
I can't take a look at your save (no warlords

), but your screenshot looks rather good. But I think the whip overflow would be better used for workers and settlers than for Stonehenge. I personally don't really like Stonehenge a lot, but I could see it use here as it saves production on monuments. Taking Metal Casting from the Oracle, and bulbing Code of Laws is interesting too. That would delay code of laws a bit, but we're probably not ready to build courthouses yet anyway. And I don't think it delays construction much, does it? We have to wait for masonry, but in that time we can still reseach writing and maths.
(Why are you not building a forge in your screenshot by the way :mischief:

isn't that the whole point of Metal Casting?

)

BLubmuz · Dec 19, 2007

Dutch, i know the blue city is not the best, but it got a highly good point: horses, now, quick!
And otherwise i can't see a way to fill the land there.
And don't forget spices, they gives 3f+3g.
The cows are almost on the coast, i doubt a pillager can arrive there.

Respect the red one it has another good point: it's close to the capital.

This way we can settle the yellow, and let the red last.
After that, only settle by the axe.

As i said, i'm not in favor of SH, but if Merum think we can arrive to CoL with the GP, and we can choose MC from Oracle it's not bad.
But ther's another cons against this: we risk not to found Confu, and lacking a religion can be a problem.

I'm more in favor to use the prophet for the shrine, it's good money we'll have for all the game.

In short: the more i think and discuss, the more i'm convinced of my plan.

dutchfire · Dec 19, 2007

Looking at the progress page:

No one has built a culture building so far (no surprise)
We are the power leaders, for what it's worth.
We're doing decently in score too, right in the middle of the pack.

BLubmuz · Dec 19, 2007

Dutch, i followed your link, and i saw there's also a CIV of that thing.

Would please explain me what the hell???? in 3 rows max and perhaps some link.

perhaps your signature 1 point smaller? ehm :eek:

dutchfire · Dec 19, 2007

Signature is now 1 point smaller

Basically, a pbem (play by email) team game. 5 teams each play a civ in the game, and try to win. After every turn is played, the game is saved and sent on to the next team. Teams have private sub-forums to communicate with eachother.

Link to sign-up thread for the civ4 version is here
Link that explains it better than I can, for the civ3 version.

Merum · Dec 19, 2007

Well, after stupidly switching the page to upload the save, I now get to re-write this post.

We seem to be a couple of turns behind the plan, probably due to imprecise MM, but it shouldn't be a huge deal.

Warrior exploration found Alex, a little mischief on his part gained us 11g, and revealed red dot to be at least my current favorite and vote for York.

Notes:

Spoiler :

Autolog:

Spoiler :

The Save

Pics for our warlords-challenged brethren:

Spoiler :

I ended up keeping the Axe in London to escort the settler.

dutchfire · Dec 20, 2007

Thanks for the pics!

Did Mansa keep his worker in the capital the entire time, or was it just built when you took the screenshot?
York does look more attractive now, with the additional ivory.
Do I see a fish - cow - double gold city on the west coast?

BLubmuz · Dec 20, 2007

Merum emerges from the abysses of his bathroom to bring us good and bad news, hanged on his trident together with some wet toilet paper (bleahh).

The good: the map, and the GW in Athens, that we can elect first target, even if on a hill, as i prophesied.
The bad: we're 5 turns in late to my plan, i suppose that damn stupid city governor moved from the gold, we must watch this.

The 11g from pillaging can help a bit once York will be founded.
we need an archer too for York and we need also to see if Alex has copper: if so, pillage it or deny is a must, i don't wanna face his axes.
I opened the save (too curious to see if the pillaging hero is still lalive): let's keep the warrior where he is: by doing so, we prevent him to use the worker (i think... ehm, i hope).

We can throw in the same abysses my dot map, better re-thinking it.
York 1E of red dot is simply FAT, and calendar is a must, so, bye-bye Stonehenge, let's build archer/axe alternate.

My plan must be varied with a worker, we need a road to move quickly to York; also, we can chop the choppable, speed is the key, f..k the benefits after math.
The archer now near Timbuktu can go south to help harass Alex, the Oracle and CoL can't be further delayed.
We're 1 archer short compared to my plan.

Go Fifth Element, this time i got good feelings, go.

Next TS plan:
move the axe immediately, he can gain a move. The settler has 2, but can't use them in the jungle but in the grassland 1S of rice, he does. We can move the axe on the hill 1SE of rice to gain that move.
I've seen an archer in queue, let's complete, then a worker, chop the grassland E of London after the mine is completed.
Then, finally, the Oracle.
Use the archer to protect a worker roading to York, the other worker will chop the grassland E of copper.

Don't chop the hill, we'll mine it directly to avoid jungle growth (enough bad luck on this).

I'm undecided what to research after writing between pottery and agri: we need both before Math, to you the choice.

Side note: that pillaging move is of great value, not only for the 11gold, but for the problems Alex has.
I can bet i never did that, but Merum, as a good texan (on his big white horse... hey are you long-tall too?) did it.
This is one of the nice sides of a team game.

Roster:
Strauss checked in, then disappeared, i consider him MIA until he gives sign to be more reliable.
Sweeta is roaming in the wild, so he can skip/swap.
I ask one thing for myself: i wish to play the TS when the Oracle will complete.
Thus i think this can be the actual roster:

greatbeyond - UP
Blubmuz - on deck
Sweetacshon (if back, otherwise down a position)
Civicide
Merum

Please note: post #3 of our thread is up-to-date.
Graph:
Same score as CRC, lot more power: or they're building workers + settlers like mad, or they use the whip in a massive way.

culdeus · Dec 20, 2007

I'm going to say this. If the cities aren't renamed something witty or at least dorky my cat will feel my wrath.

dutchfire · Dec 20, 2007

What about a London Underground theme for our city names?
Or a English soccer teams theme?

(By the way, nice postcount culdeus)

Progress page:
CRC has had a culture rise after turn 70, could they have built the Oracle? Or Stonehenge, the Great Wall or another wonder? Or would it just be a plain old obelisk in a second city?
We're still power leaders.

BLubmuz · Dec 20, 2007

Noticed...
I guess the Henge, too soon for the Oracle, and this can match with the low power by using whipping overflow.
If Oracle, i doubt they have used it for CoL, too soon.
This can be a mistake, if true, of course.

@Culdeus
This game i'd prefer not rename cities.
one thing is with the asian names, another with english, french, or roman.
The names are nice and meaningful, and i like the english cities' names.

This is my opinion, in case we can vote.

greatbeyond · Dec 20, 2007

I have the starting save

I notice our Archer near Timbuktu is up for promotion. I an thinking the +25% Vs Archery units would be the best at this point.

Our Axeman is also up for promotion and I would Suggest the City Raider 1. Then move him 1 SE to get a head start on the settler.

Any preferences for our Warrior threatening Alex? I am of a mind to move him around a little. However if we do, I expect that Alex will send out his worker with two of his Archers.

BLubmuz · Dec 20, 2007

greatbeyond,
the warrior must stay inside greek borders, but out of range.
remember that, even if the gold is roaded, it's across a river, and a unit will be stopped. He can stay where he is, if no directly threatened.

for the rest:
1) bring the settler safely to his destination, use the axe as you said. IIRC Merum should have marked the "settlement", anyway it's 1E of my red city.

2) follow the plan varied as in this one

useless to say, if you find some good variation, do it!

We can wait to promote the archer, move him south to go in York.
Now it's time to go nighty-night here, let me find good news tomorrow morning.

good luck!

SGOTM 06 - Fifth Element

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