SGOTM 10 - Murky Waters

My estimate is fission ~T130, rocketry T150.

To the GPP in this GA:
Murkow gets anyway pretty near to empty food bin. In CC it's not better to use the food in this GA compared to after NE. Pete needs to leave food resources unworked already (paying 4f for 9 gpp instead of 2f for 6gpp pacifism w/o GA). The rest is too small anyway.

There is still the question if we should revolt to OR at the end of this GA.
Thanks for your estimate.

On the GPPs, it's not just about ratios of food to gpps, it's also about absolute amounts of gpps. When we're in slavery, only Murkow would be able to run more than 2 sci per turn. But anyway, I'll take a new look at it with T130 for Fission. That's probably a whole lot easier. Btw, ZPV had T150 just hitting <enter>. Was your test save more lucrative than this map?

To me the OR question is still up in the air.
 
I'm fine with running an expansion phase between Communism and T100, then get a couple of GS to speed up research. We're aiming for more stuff than ZPV did in his test game I presume. More cities, Kremlin etc.

I'm also fine with settling any of the cities you've mentioned.

I like OR once we're done with the first bulbing phase. There's still buildings to complete such as observatories apart from all the national wonders.

I've been in Norway (Olso) with my family these last two days, and I'm going to France (Grenoble) tonight to be back Tuesday night. Good luck if you plan to play further.
 
In this game we really have to think how to come by cash. We will have no income by city capturing until we don't need it anymore. Trades will also be very limited (we won't have a bunch of obsolete cheap techs). We have a deficit of 75g currently 8 from military unit cost (but civic cost is 4-9 lower than other rel. civics), 12 from distance maintenance. New cities will add ~6 number of cities maintenance empire wide currently, going up to nearly 14, before saturating to 7. I think we will have more than 100g on average cost for the next 50 turns.
Chilly can produce 43cpt at pop11. GC, 33cpt at p10. If necessary, Pete can do 65cpt at p15. Marble, 26cpt at p8. It adds up pretty quickly. The Gandhi SW city can do 52cpt at p13, but it'll take around 40t to get there. At p10 (30t), it can do 26cpt while still growing.

We have options. So I doubt it's T130 for Fission. If it's T120, and ~T132 for Rocketry (I think we can do Manhatten in 12t), we should finish on T140 at the latest. I don't think we should plan for slower than that. If you think it'll be slower, then we should maybe rather consider lightbulbing Physics and forget about Communism, beeline Rocketry and uses galleons to contain the AIs (which we should do anyway if we can't trade with the birdbrains).

So if we get the GA GP from Alca, then four more can be Pete, Sala, Mu, and CC. During this GA, I would consider squeezing most or all of these gpps into:
Pete +243:gp: on T66
Sala +306:gp: on T65
Mu +126:gp: on T65

EDIT:
Another way to say this: The last couple of turns of the GA don't contribute any bonus to the bushels produced anywhere. We can grow Mu and other cities all turns, but we can only take advantage of the CS+Pacifism+GA while we're running them.
 
Had a bit much to do in RL lately. :(
But now I'm thinking some more about the game.
I still don't like the extremes we need to go to get GS.
So how about something completely different :).
We research PP now :eek:. First GS will build academy (which still should pay off in the long run relative to bulbing). We trade for education with PP (probably more than one will have it by then so it might work directly - otherwise we might have to put one more turn in).
Bulb astronomy and look if we still think we can afford to research/bulb sci method, otherwise take SM with liberalism. Nice side effect is that we can afford the risk to get an engineer.

As we in any case are not sure about if/when we get communism, settle Alcatraz now, which helps research a bit instead of costing unit cost for settler/worker/wbs under way.
 
Interesting idea. If we can get a good slingshot and an academy, then obviously that's far superior. Using my spreadsheet, but only adding the academy on T57, we get Liberalism on T70 latest. Then the 4th GS gains us an extra 1060:science: by double-bulbing SM and taking Physics. Are you saving more by starving less? :)

If we slingshot Physics, thereby blowing off Communism, at least in my mind, we don't have Kremlin at the end and we can't economically REX, but we do still have another containment option. We could bulb Chemistry with the free GS and build some privateers to control the waters. We wouldn't even need war for that and the privateers could also run blockaids, starving and killing economies and giving us the 2gpt per city blockaided to boot. We should do this anyway, but it's more effective the sooner we get CHemistry.

We could also double-bulb SM and take Communism, which just means your solution didn't save us from starving, but did gain us the academy. So if you think we can wait till ~T70 to finish Liberalism, then researching PP is better either way. The only drawback I can think of is that this might blow off any chances at the Economics GM. But I don't think we need it anyway.
 
I'm still not sure about the concern on starving though, because Kremlin saves us 1pop when poprushing the uni in Murkow and about 1pop + 9f in CC, without OR.
 
Well, one problem is that your spreadsheet isn't correct for Murkow. Taking off the rice keeping iron at 10 sci is -6 food not -4. We are paying 5 fpt for the scientist or 2f 9h as we cannot even sustain that. At the same time GS3 isn't that urgent with the PP route. St. Pete is paying 3f 5h for a scientist by throwing out the cows. We could delay GS2 by a turn, which means we would also have to delay CC. CC could use the scientist turns zo put hammers into a settler instead (note again in CC the scientist turns in this GA aren't that efficient, if we assume NE at some time).
 
Could either LC or klarius explain if my following assumptions differ from reality?
We run a GA to generate a couple of GS, then run a phase of expansion, and then get back into bulb phase where we also research like mad and grow our new cities. Then we kill them all.​
 
Well, one problem is that your spreadsheet isn't correct for Murkow. Taking off the rice keeping iron at 10 sci is -6 food not -4. We are paying 5 fpt for the scientist or 2f 9h as we cannot even sustain that. At the same time GS3 isn't that urgent with the PP route. St. Pete is paying 3f 5h for a scientist by throwing out the cows. We could delay GS2 by a turn, which means we would also have to delay CC. CC could use the scientist turns zo put hammers into a settler instead (note again in CC the scientist turns in this GA aren't that efficient, if we assume NE at some time).
Right, I guess I forgot to change the hammers or something, it's been a while. Anyway, I was trying to get the 4 GSes by T65. If we can delay Lib til T69/70, then we can also try spreading out the GSes, what do you think? I haven't tried it, but I assume it could work. We might still have to run a turn or two without the iron or rice.

The thing is, klarius, the more I study the map, the more I see it as vital that we control certain tiles, either by settling or by placing a couple of knights there and being prepared to DoW to stop AI settling. The most critical is the London south peninsula. We must settle there to be 4 tiles from Bombay, obviously, and hopefully, CHurchill will settle in between. He would have to settle only 4 tiles from London. Would he? There is also a more subtle possibility of settling at London 1se-3s, which prevents anyone from settling 5 tiles from Bombay or even London 2se-2s which doesn't prevent settling 5 tiles from Bombay, but gives us 4 tiles to both London and York!!!

In any case, London and Bombay are both ICBM threats that we want to avoid. Furthermore, London opens up the entire de Gaulle chain reaction, if we miss out on the dyes site.

So I'm thinking it's pretty critical to get to use slavery for at least a couple more settlers in the T70s and then switch to Communism. Evidently you see an alternative since you're not so hooked on SP. How would you go about handling that situation differently?
 
Could either LC or klarius explain if my following assumptions differ from reality?
We run a GA to generate a couple of GS, then run a phase of expansion, and then get back into bulb phase where we also research like mad and grow our new cities. Then we kill them all.​
Your assumptions fit with what I think is optimal. However, how to go about that is still up in the air. I think you might get different explanations and I'm interested to hear klarius', but currently we're still debating exactly what to bulb and what to tech next. That will dictate what happens afterward. Choices, as I understand them:

LC1. educ(bulb)-PP(b)-astro(b)-SM(b+res)-Lib(res)-Comm or Physics (slingshot) {4 GSes}
KL2. PP(res)-Academy(GS)-educ(trade)-astro(b)-lib(res)-SM(slingshot) {2 GSes}
KL3. PP(res)-Academy(GS)-educ(trade)-astro(b)-lib(res)-SM(b+res)-Com/Phy(sling) {3 GSes} (I don't think we could finish SM in time but who knows?)
LC4. PP(res)-Academy(GS)-educ(trade)-astro(b)-lib(res)-SM(2 bulbs)-Com/Phy(sling) {4 GSes}
 
Ok I'm back now. Will catch up tomorrow.

EDIT: still thinking about it, but I think I would prefer alternatives that have us trading for edu instead of bulbing it.
 
What if we ignore communism? Then we stay in Mercantilism which somewhat compensates for the extra distance cost. All cities with less than 3 coins in distance cost is gaining from Mercantilism. Our GP farms gain from Mercantilism (CC get +6 GPP/t for roughly 50 turns => 300 GPP, right?), so perhaps SP does not gain us much unless we spam settlers?

The real loss is Kremlin and the Great Spy. So perhaps Communism is worthwhile even without SP?
 
Yes. GPs on T57, T62, T64, T65 and we only abandon the cows for 2t and we can still switch to OR on T64. The stone settler is done on T66, stone connected T71, Kremlin done on T72 (if we want).
 
The real loss is Kremlin and the Great Spy. So perhaps Communism is worthwhile even without SP?
Yes. I'm having a really hard time figuring out any team can win faster without Kremlin. In fact, I have to confess I found a huge mistake in some of my calcs. I forgot the +10%:hammers: bonus in SP. Trivial, right? Damn wrong. It's huge. Earlier, klarius mentioned the Kremlin 4pop = 335h (for nukes). Well, add SP and you get 361h! What that means is that a pop10 city can 4pop and 3pop 2 nukes in about 5-7t. A pop14 city can poprush 3 nukes in 7t.

And unless klarius included the 10% in his calcs for CC, it's even easier to make settlers every 6t.

I also didn't include it in any of my calcs for building commerce, iirc.
 
Been reading along a bit, man you guys are an amazing team. I wish my BUFFY mod could work on my computer so I could play these turns.
Hey! Glad to hear you're still hanging around. Get that BUFFY working! (If you can talk your parents into letting you play. Respect your parents! :))
 
klarius, do you have any idea when your RL assignment is loosing up? :D

Do you think you could provide a PPP and run a quick review around the table, then play whenever you manage?
 
Über allen Gipfeln
ist Ruh,
in allen Wipfeln
spürest du
kaum einen Hauch;
die Vögelein schweigen im Walde,
warte nur, balde
ruhest du auch!
 
It would be nice if klarius or someone could at least play 2 turns to the Murkow GP. Then we'd know whether it's a GE or a GS. I suppose we would assume that it's better to research PP and trade for Educ.
 
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