SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

So big picture items (sorry for the long list but these are just my pre-game thoughts):

1. We should go for UN, unless somebody has a very convincing reason why culture will be faster/safer. The fastest way to the UN (assuming we pick up two vassals to vote for us) will be a straight bulb down the radio line capped by liberalism for radio (mass media is cheaper), although I'll have to do test maps to see how reliable that is on emperor. I think it's reasonably doable since we're philosophical.

I like this statement,:goodjob: no one in our team had such a clear mind from the beginning.

Plastic Ducks Notes

Settled on PH, as well. Their settling pattern was very different from ours. Bombay went 2S of stone instead, and they settled Vija NWW of stone (!) before 2000 BC - this was their GLH city. Pata (Two Fish equivalent) went SW of pig, giving up one of the fish (?!) They lost the Oasis site to Zara and didn't go for Ivory. Instead they planted the two gold cities next to Saladin relatively early.

Bombay was settled that way since it could save a monument and can use the copper right away, Bombay pumped 4 settlers including the one for Vij and some workers.

For the same reason, in that position, Pat can work on 3 resources without border pop, which is much more efficient for unit pumping at that stage an extra fish only adds 2 specialists and our main GP farm is capital.

The 2 fish and ivory site was gone before we saw it, whether to claim it depended on the random factor/ AI's behavior.


Oracle (COL) was built in 1975 BC in Delhi, and they got a touch lucky with their first two GS popping at 70-80% odds. Delhi built Pyramids next, then ToA, while Vija got GLH. They went for Lit before Philo/Paper/Educ, and built TGL in the BC's. Seemed to be slightly ahead of us in research circa 1 AD, our early Oxford and direct beeline pushed ahead in the 1-500 AD period, but they crushed us in the end, riding the wonders, extra GP's and continuous golden age.

Both GS was at over 80% odd, so it's almost for sure we can get 1 for academy, Gpriest is almost as good as GS in early stage.

All our micros in early stage is to grab GLH, I was the only one who was satisfied with the natural completion date of > 95% successful odd.:p Other members wanted to whip Vij to get it 2 turns earlier. Therefore, a plan of oracle to get CS sling will be denied in our team without doubt since they want critical wonders to be as safe as possible.

We could have OU on line as early as before 100AD, which is a close date as yours. However, we decided to go to war as early as possible, which not only sacrificed our research, but also GPP since we also gave up Part.


Not sure the extra expansion mattered so much. The gpp RNG is substantial, as they popped everything they needed without really trying very hard, whereas we over-dedicated at every juncture and failed (not only the GE obsession - remember also the 5 pages of discussion about the academy GS and all the mess around the second GM). The Delhi gems make a difference, too. All in all, I think gems, better luck and taking out Zara might collectively amount to a closer margin (more like 4-5t instead of 10-11t), but their base strategy (primarily Delhi usage and wonder-spam) seems to be superior.

We indeed had pretty good luck on GP type, but some of them does not matter such as if there's a Gpriest in the 1st 2 GPs, or another Gpriest in the middle, which could be used to launch a GA and we could save the GArtist to bulb MM.

Our luck on the gem is not that good as you imagined, kossin get it ~600BC, however he also get a demand from Toku, which cost us ~15 turns to adopted Hindu to fix it while our major cities were all Confu, lose quite a lot trade route income and whipping hammers from OR bonus.


I guess if the research phase was shorter - we'd win, and that if it was longer - we'd get absolutely massacred. The break-even point is somewhere around Physics/Electricity?

Remember that we also researched Nat and built Taj, therefore if the research phase was shorter, we could skip Nat and go for SM directly. Our research was greatly weakened during 1AD~500AD since we were whipping many cities to hell for the war.


Last, I would not say which strategy is better since both teams did a very good job to secure the win ~1000AD. but the way of getting vote by force is safer and more flexible in bad diplomatic situation
 
he also get a demand from Toku, which cost us ~15 turns to adopted Hindu to fix it while our major cities were all Confu, lose quite a lot trade route income and whipping hammers from OR bonus.
I don't understand this. :) Why did you have to accept the demand? Or deny it, or whatever you did?
 
@Duckweed - We got a lucky break on the religious break down with Justinian going Buddhist. If he had gone another religion, we probably would have taken the military route as well since it'd be tough to pick up his vote otherwise. The GLH was a very good idea for the map. At what point did you guys decide to build it?
 
Finally done reading your thread - some excellent discussions!

I had a hunch later on that you could have tried Oracle>CS from seeing Mutineer do that in several forum games but that's about it.

Luck was different on both sides although I would agree to say ours might have been more favorable.

One of the big differences in the discussions though was our test game which was kept updated throughout the entire time to enable as-if-on-the-field testing. It also enabled long-term tests to get an idea of what would be possible but that was less important... it was just really long to do by comparing screenshots... when I re-did our test game I must've spend ~12 hours on it.

Anyway, congratulations on your finish date, it was a very well played game!

@shy
The first mention of GLH in our thread comes at 2875BC where we've pretty much scouted all our available land and determined that AIs would be intercontinental. We took a few days of testing to determine how best to achieve it iIrc.
 
@ shyuhe:

In addition to what kossin said, when we identified the possibility of building offshore cities and of having intercontinental trades, it seemed quite normal for us to discuss GLH. Very soon we reached the agreement of building it without hesitation.

That was at t45 when we finished the scouting. I read your thread, at the same time, OSS had finished the scouting as well, but GLH didn't seem to attract any attention. With respect, it seems strange to me, as I thought the choice of GLH was quite obvious. Why? (the same question I'd like to ask the other teams; among the saves I checked, PD was the only team which went for GLH.)
 
We were pretty hammer strapped at that point I think, partly because of our attempt to oracle CS (which limited our build orders etc.). We may also have suffered from tunnel vision since we were concentrating so much on the oracle too. A lot of our discussion went towards what we should take from Oracle, not about the growth of our empire as a whole.
 
I don't think building the Oracle was the problem, but the rush to get the Pyramids was. If we had built them a little slower we could have expanded quicker and easily built the Great Lighthouse. I think that at this point we wrongly assumed the GL was not possible when in retrospect it clearly was.
 
The only reason we didn't consider GLH that I can think of was brain fart. :)

Justy going Buddhist was pure luck, but up to then I assumed we'd just spread it to him and easily convert him. Furthermore, we met Justy very early and had a ton of plus mods so +8 was never going to be a problem.

@dingding: We had no problem getting OBs with Toku soon after we met him. With Toku it's always vital to get him to +5 visible plusmods instantly with cash or tech gifts and get OBs. Then you won't lose them unless he DoWs you, which was almost impossible in this game.
 
Did any team miss Oracle or Pyramids? Wonder what the dates were...

With perfect hindsight it's easy to say coulda-shoulda. In that period, we were completely pre-occupied with land-grabbing and getting out workers/WB's. GLH would have been another significant slowdown in expansion and growth, to go with Pyramids. Like mdy says, though, I think we assumed the timing on it would have to much quicker than it really was.

@kossin, we did quite a bit of test-play through the BC's, and then we abandoned it in favour of just straight calculation. That's probably somewhat symptomatic of going into tunnel vision and foregoing creative play. More longer term testing would be great, as well.
 
@bbp - looks like you got busted:

:lol:


After seeing T-Hawk was online and posting at the same time, I went and had a look at a couple of other players who were online also.

I noticed this:
Spoiler :
babybluepants.jpg


So either he's cheating, or much more likely, his team has finished.
It's around that sort of time now, and we were definitely slow and steady with our turnrate at the start.

Edit:

Oh absolutely.
No defeatist attitudes allowed here! :lol:

edit: incidentally, Barley Demons may catch xteam for the bronze if xteam isn't careful.
 
I saw that. I love the report with the big red arrows. :lol:

Edit:
Barley Demons may catch xteam for the bronze if xteam isn't careful.
Yeah, they popped the GE. BD seems to me to be in the better position ATM.
 
Wouldn't it have been a bit easier to simply notice that bbp had posted in PD's thread and his post wasn't covered for about half the day at least? ;)
 
It's pretty entertaining to be reading the other threads, that's for certain... at one point most teams expect the barbs guarding the fur to be Infantry+ ... reminds me of myself at one point :D

Here's hoping that the next SGOTM starts in September :cheers:
 
Furbarbs were pretty disappointing tbh... I was expecting them to be completely surrounded by peaks on an island with just a single land tile outside the peak ring :p
 
Furbarbs were pretty disappointing tbh... I was expecting them to be completely surrounded by peaks on an island with just a single land tile outside the peak ring :p
I suspect the mapmaker didn't want to put too much pressure on some of the teams. For a first-time SG effort, pretty impressive, imo.
 
^^
That and it wouldn't be very fair to Culture attempts (just like requiring Astronomy).

I agree that DS put up a well done effort for this map, hats off to him :hatsoff:
 
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