3 MP + 3 luxes lets us get up near size 12 and still max research. That will more than make up for the extra food we spend on a pair of workers.
SGOTM 12 - Team Zoe
- Thread starter AlanH
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3 MP + 3 luxes lets us get up near size 12 and still max research. That will more than make up for the extra food we spend on a pair of workers.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Yep. And my instinct says that oligopoly is the likely situation. I certainly wouldn't trust the Aztecs to build it for us.
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
By pseudo war with the aztecs I just meant having them waste troops against the japs. Whatever the outcome, we can snipe out the two much more easily once they have sent a third of their force at each other.
EDIT: I just noticed we have 15 units of support. What's up with the +10 ? Deity freebie ?
... and the colossus has already been built in paris, sana.
EDIT: I just noticed we have 15 units of support. What's up with the +10 ? Deity freebie ?
... and the colossus has already been built in paris, sana.
zerksees
in remission
Yes after they kill each other for 10 turns we can land our troops and take their cities.
ThERat
Deity
what?
incredible...well once the AI can't expand they start this stuff..so I expect the SoZ to fall much sooner than under normal conditions...We do have different opinions here so far. Do we all agree on min run for writing, followed by max on philo? or going for MM?
As for the builds, I would like to get a few more workers initially. They will help improve the land (clear those jungle tiles), then merge or build colonies. In case someone still doesn't know here, colonies give automatic roads.
As for fighting, I think we should wait a bit and I certainly prefer swords over horses on this type of map. Given however, that we are ensured the horses, we might want to trade HBR.
Lastly, I do not like ROP rapes and the likes such as fake gifting of towns etc. In case some people do not know, you can use the tactic of gifting a town to the AI, then declare war and if lucky, after taking them back, get even more out of a peace deal. I find that highly exploitive.
Since we need to win this via the UN, we shouldn't ever raze cities, am I right to say that? I believe that will make the AI furious. We should get a good plan whom we suck up to and whom we are going to fight against. And of course, we do need to build the UN ourselves.
EDIT: I just noticed we have 15 units of support. What's up with the +10 ? Deity freebie ?
Check out the game parameters in the first post.
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
Mr the HWe need the UN with a solid prebuild yes, and then as far as winning the election is concerned, you start a war with the 2 most powerful / likely to be in the election and make sure to buy everyone in against them, using whatever means necessary... that's my take on diplo victories.
Razing is double bad here since the only way to acquire anything is by capture, so I'd refrain from targetting anything at 1 pop and 0 culture even.
About the extra worker, I don't think we will gain much from the extra worker turns since we lose a growth turn in our one city. 2 workers are plenty enough I believe, and the jungle tiles will, at best, allow us to mine more of the other tiles up there. So before they pay off, we'll be on our way to Teotihuacan, 3rd worker or not.
Had we had 2 cities, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a 3rd worker, but once he's done at home he won't be that busy on aztec and japanese soil with the worker slaves we will likely gather.
zerksees
in remission
On pop rushing, I do not recommend this in towns that have low corruption. The people eventually are so pissed the cities are worthless – sometimes stuck at size 1 who is unhappy because of cruel oppression – go figure. Emergency use only is my suggestion.
Since you are leading Mr Whomp – I think it is up to you to decide what we should and should not do. This affects several of your questions:
We need a ruling from you on the wonder pre-build. I think it a waste of shields.
I want to win the game (beat the AI), and I don’t think having some some honorable rules will affect that. Since there seems to be a majority that have some ideology about honor with the AI (myself excluded BTW), seems like that is the way to go. It’ll be fine with me to as I was aware of this ahead of time. Perhaps adding a section in your first post on do’s and don’ts would be handy.
Also your guidance on tech would be good. I say buy our way through. Let the dinky boats make the connections and trade away. 0% science. Let our 30 closest friends do it for us.
I think one of our statistician types could tell us when to put up the grape and/or incense colony. I think sanabas is on the money with 3 lux and 3 mp, we should try to get there ASAP. I just wonder if you wait til size 9, 10 or ? to pop the next worker. Would hate to use 0 gpt slave workers since I figure we will have unit support costs down the road.
Amen. All of them will. They fall fast on deity as it is. Don’t they get a 50% discount on shields needed?what?
I did not know this. How did I get off warlord level anyway?ThERat said:
Well, in the unlikely event we find an isolated AI we could raze their cities and no one would know about it. As long as our atrocity level does not exceed our competitor we will probably be OK, so my guess is a few razes probably won’t hurt much.ThERat said:
Oh – a list of friend, foe and neutral AI would also be handy. Perhaps someone should be the diplomat and keep track of this.
I fully agree that any city that's pop rushed should be away from (what will be our core). Feudalism is a lousy government for fighting as it is so our focus should be on maximizing commerce and short blitz type wars.
It's tough to call. On a huge map there might be 3 or 4 civs with ivory. Unfortunately, with Gythaar making the map he could've placed ivory with 10. AC's are made to conquer so if we're not using them to expand then they are not worth the unit support cost.
I know your view on this. The main issues are things that will destroy our trading rep. In this type of game it may be best to play with honor and not exploit the AI. So I would simply say protect the trading rep because if we wreck this our chances for a vote drop by those who know our exploit.
In my experience, the AI won't trade for gpt till they get markets up. Zero science could be a distinct possibility later and we should be able to trade a considerable amount.
Good point. A native workere would be better for colonies than slaves. This is a good case for why building more workers is a good plan. Our focus should be max commerce and if we have to bump the lux slider this defeats the purpose of running hot on commerce. The worker seems like a small short term cost versus the long term benefits.Zerksees said:
Good idea. I think every turnplayer should relay their thoughts on who these civs would be. I can say the early UU's are ones we'd want to partner with early. They have better potential to kick off early GA's and knock off some opponents.Zerksees said:
eldar
ChiefTank
lurker's comment: On the "Workers for colonies" point: it's better to pop them below size 7 as they'll only cost 20 food as opposed to 40. Of course, size 7 would probably by the ideal time to knock up a granary; from what I can tell we'll be getting at least one shield from every tile worked, and 2 from the centre tile, so it'd be 7 turns max to a granary. Well worth the effort for quicker growth at that point, and that knocks the worker cost back down to 20.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
I agree with Zerksees for the need of a definitive list of what you consider dishonourable; I would hate to inadvertantly offend anyone's sense of honour.
ThERat
Deity
played only 9 turns as we need to decide now what to do next
ok, here is what happened
initially we're up techs and none down
decide it's really better to pop more workers for colonies so we can grow nicely as we hit pop 7
we're now able to grow very fast
met Korea, then Egypt who are up IW
on turn 4 met Persia, up IW as well
Inca's learned HBR in the meantime
bought IW for wheel, WC and 25 gold and yes, we do have iron
on turn 6 HBR was known by 2 Civs
acquired HBR from Incas for alpha and CB
on turn 8 four Civs know mysticism
get mysticism + 20 gold from Ottoman for alpha, wheel
built 2 workers + 1 warrior and switched to prebuild
we can now still switch to a rax if we think that's better
we are making 12spt at the moment, thus SoZ would not take too long, but we need maths first
we have met a number of Civs and are up in the tech game
the world, we do have 5 dinkies roaming about, I did have to send them 3 times for small suicide runs to get over to more land we did not lose any of them
ok, here is what happened
initially we're up techs and none down
decide it's really better to pop more workers for colonies so we can grow nicely as we hit pop 7
we're now able to grow very fast
met Korea, then Egypt who are up IW
on turn 4 met Persia, up IW as well
Inca's learned HBR in the meantime
bought IW for wheel, WC and 25 gold and yes, we do have iron
on turn 6 HBR was known by 2 Civs
acquired HBR from Incas for alpha and CB
on turn 8 four Civs know mysticism
get mysticism + 20 gold from Ottoman for alpha, wheel
built 2 workers + 1 warrior and switched to prebuild
we can now still switch to a rax if we think that's better
we are making 12spt at the moment, thus SoZ would not take too long, but we need maths first
we have met a number of Civs and are up in the tech game
the world, we do have 5 dinkies roaming about, I did have to send them 3 times for small suicide runs to get over to more land we did not lose any of them
Might be worth throwing up a temple too. We're still ~20 turns from writing, yeah? And it will take ~15 turns to get 200 shields. It's a gamble, but I'd be inclined to start the prebuild now, in the expectation that maths will be researched for us in the next 15 or so turns. The biggest thing that can torpedo that plan is someone finishing Pyramids early, but hopefully ToA will also be available for prebuilding with soon, I'd expect the Ottomans to be researching it right now. I'd take the risk. If we do lose our prebuild because Pyramids & Oracle are built too soon, we lose maybe ~100 shields, get to have the fun of digging ourselves out of that, and we still have a chance to build SoZ anyway. If pyramids don't appear early, we're off to a flying start.
I'm still technically a lurker btw, as searching hasn't turned up my Civ3 disc, only the conquests one.
I'm still technically a lurker btw, as searching hasn't turned up my Civ3 disc, only the conquests one.
zerksees
in remission
Looks good 
There is a good bit of coin out there too. Maybe could sell Egpyt, Mongols and Korea a tech to get that coin?
Iron too? Amazing.
I would really like to know who knows who. Several of them have boats out so some contacts are being made. Maybe the lack of contacts will keep the tech pace slow for a little while.
How many of the known AI are building wonders atm? We already know almost half of them. If none are building, that would be a good sign the prebuild can work.
There is a good bit of coin out there too. Maybe could sell Egpyt, Mongols and Korea a tech to get that coin?
Iron too? Amazing.
I would really like to know who knows who. Several of them have boats out so some contacts are being made. Maybe the lack of contacts will keep the tech pace slow for a little while.
How many of the known AI are building wonders atm? We already know almost half of them. If none are building, that would be a good sign the prebuild can work.
ThERat
Deity
quite a few of them started the Oracle and I think pyramids as well. As we have nothing but the pyramids to prebuild, I think we might lose all the shields invested easily.
Maybe we should build a rax or granary first. If we can't get other techs for prebuilds the chance of losing shields is just too high.
As for contacts, we can't tell who knows who before we build embassies. but, we need writing for that and that's 22 turns to go.
I purposely didn't sell techs yet, wanted to leave that to the next player.
Maybe we should build a rax or granary first. If we can't get other techs for prebuilds the chance of losing shields is just too high.
As for contacts, we can't tell who knows who before we build embassies. but, we need writing for that and that's 22 turns to go.
I purposely didn't sell techs yet, wanted to leave that to the next player.
zerksees
in remission
I have not been too keen on wonders anyhow, we will definitely build a temple and a barracks eventually, so I think those are good choices. I am really on the fence about the granary. We are stacked with food and won't be building settlers. Seems like a waste of shields and gpt. Building a worker at size 6 w/out granary is the same as size 8 with a granary. And how many more will we build anyway?
My 2 cents: temple, then rax. Maybe a dinky or two then swords until we have something else to build (like harbor, dromons, library, market).
My 2 cents: temple, then rax. Maybe a dinky or two then swords until we have something else to build (like harbor, dromons, library, market).
Beorn-eL-Feared
Idiot riding pedals
I'm with Zerks on the granary: no.
12spt will be 15+ as soon as the iron hill is mined, so I say let's go for rax and swords. None of the others have ivory, so chances are it's island-specific to us and the aztecs. If the aztecs don't build SoZ we'll have lost 4-5 AC's; if they do build it we'll be 7 swords ahead of them.
@Buce: I wouldn't be offended by anything, but I'd strongly rather we keep our trading reputation. In this game, once the AI's start making contact with each other, trading 4-5 turns after a tech has come out wil be incredibly cheaper than doing any kind of research.
12spt will be 15+ as soon as the iron hill is mined, so I say let's go for rax and swords. None of the others have ivory, so chances are it's island-specific to us and the aztecs. If the aztecs don't build SoZ we'll have lost 4-5 AC's; if they do build it we'll be 7 swords ahead of them.
@Buce: I wouldn't be offended by anything, but I'd strongly rather we keep our trading reputation. In this game, once the AI's start making contact with each other, trading 4-5 turns after a tech has come out wil be incredibly cheaper than doing any kind of research.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Absolutely. That goes without saying as far as I'm concerned.
What I mean is that people have different ideas about what constitutes 'fair play'; since Whomp and others have expressed a desire for 'honourable' play, I want to know how we are defining 'honourable', otherwise there is the risk that I might do something considered 'dishonourable' without my knowing it.
Very nice round ThERat! 
My view of honor is not breaking 20 turn deals, ROPs and making sure trade routes are secure (this is a real big one since it takes some time to figure this out). These items will undoubtedly destroy our trading rep. I'm fine with phony wars, though they're quite dastardly, I see the benefits in this game. The island to our west (and likely SE) look crowded and formenting war there seems logical.
On the wonder prebuild, I agree the risk may be too early. If maths comes up and we can trade for it our builds on rax and temple could be switched. Do we know who has ivory?
The granary will be necessary at some point but I don't see it as an immediate need. The thing about SoZ that makes it so powerful because it doesn't expire till metal. They can be extremely effective for a long time and with the extra hps give us a lot of elites that could generate MGLs which we may find useful in building markets and unis. The question is do we need science buildings if we're going to trade around. I'm inclined to focus on commerce buildings over science buildings.
My view of honor is not breaking 20 turn deals, ROPs and making sure trade routes are secure (this is a real big one since it takes some time to figure this out). These items will undoubtedly destroy our trading rep. I'm fine with phony wars, though they're quite dastardly, I see the benefits in this game. The island to our west (and likely SE) look crowded and formenting war there seems logical.
On the wonder prebuild, I agree the risk may be too early. If maths comes up and we can trade for it our builds on rax and temple could be switched. Do we know who has ivory?
The granary will be necessary at some point but I don't see it as an immediate need. The thing about SoZ that makes it so powerful because it doesn't expire till metal. They can be extremely effective for a long time and with the extra hps give us a lot of elites that could generate MGLs which we may find useful in building markets and unis. The question is do we need science buildings if we're going to trade around. I'm inclined to focus on commerce buildings over science buildings.
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