SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[shulec]

Unresolved issues:

• Bribe Hatty to close borders with Toku.
• Trade Gold to Genghigawa. Get gold from Hammuragawa or take unhappiness in Dehli and PigGems.
• Move settler outside Hatty's land one extra turn on T121 to assess Hatty's war sit.
• What do we trade for Hammuragawas fish.

I think we shouldn't bribe Hatty on T121.
We should trade Gold to Genghigawa and deal with the unhappiness.
Move the settler on T121
We should pay GPT for the fish.

 

[Kaitzilla]

From the test game
Compass 121
Machinery 212

333 +50 +383

400 should be enough, but I don't mind a little more cushion.

Hmm, if we had 460, then that should be enough to steal Compass, Machinery, and one extra tech.

If we popped a Great Prophet, then we could steal Code of Laws and bulb most of Civil Service I think.

If we popped a Great Scientist, we would want to avoid Code of Laws like the plague and bulb Optics after stealing only Compass and Machinery. Then we could steal calendar or monarchy or something if a spy is still alive.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I think we shouldn't bribe Hatty on T121.
We should trade Gold to Genghigawa and deal with the unhappiness.
Move the settler on T121
We should pay GPT for the fish.

I am also against bribing Hatty on T121. If she is coming, then that sword+cata is going to die. Our new city is also defenseless and will be easily taken. Pretty sure cutting our mainland off from attack by Hatty won't stop her DoW, as she will turn to the new city to attack.

I think we should trade the gold to Genghigawa T121 and cancel our gold to Hamma. We can make it up to Hamma T128 with either a wheat gift or gems and get +2 resources by T134. We are 8/50 resource turns towards +2 on T121, and with 3 resources Hamma gets to 47/50 resource turns on T134. Heck, it might go to +2 on T135 just in time to influence his possible vote for us if the worst happens and we aren't able to gift him anything in the future.

I vote yes on moving the settler. I will eat my sock if a Liz archer kills it and we lose a shot to (Liberate) a city to Ghenghis for open borders. A single war chariot would mow it down in the open field.

Do we need the fish that bad? I think we need the gpt more. Maybe we can cancel one of the 3 resources (not gold) going to Hamma and renegotiate to trade it for fish. The crab is being traded for clams, but the marble and deer are being traded for 1gpt I think.

 

[Kaitzilla]

1 turn seems safe enough with the scouts moved on T122 and then the game uploaded. Hmmm. Everyone seems to have gone asleep.

Maybe keep building military for one more turn until the northern missionary finds out if the northern coastal site is a go. Could be a mountain there.

 

[WastinTime]

stop. I'm back. catching up

 

[WastinTime]

shulec, did you see my request for t119 (and 118) save if you have it? I want to see Hats troop movements. If we can block her from our mainland, it might give us enough time to get a trireme out (although I'm still for a galley if it comes out faster.) Did we calculate when the workers can get there and finish the boat?

I'm sure she wasn't in WHEOOHRN before she entered the Holy War vs. Liz T116. Also, she trade embargoed Liz T115, so a bribe from Liz isn't possible. I don't think Hats will declare war on us while still at war with another AI. Those units are probably headed towards where Hatsegawa thinks Elizagawa is.

Didn't we decide the WHEOOHRN is broken in this game?
I'm pretty sure Hats does not think Liz is in that direction.
I can't think of any explanation for her units coming toward us. They are not escorting or exploring and shulec says there are more in Tokus' land. I'd like to try and see how many more.

I think Hats is heading for that pigs site north of our new city with war chariots and a settler.

but it's not those units I'm concerned about.

 

[mabraham]

I think we shouldn't bribe Hatty on T121.
We should trade Gold to Genghigawa and deal with the unhappiness.
Move the settler on T121
We should pay GPT for the fish.

Sounds good.

 

[mabraham]

shulec, did you see my request for t119 (and 118) save if you have it? I want to see Hats troop movements. If we can block her from our mainland, it might give us enough time to get a trireme out (although I'm still for a galley if it comes out faster.) Did we calculate when the workers can get there and finish the boat?



Didn't we decide the WHEOOHRN is broken in this game?

No, we decided the buffy main-screen representation of wheoohrn is buggy. The diplo screen is thought to be fine.

I'm pretty sure Hats does not think Liz is in that direction.
I can't think of any explanation for her units coming toward us. They are not escorting or exploring and shulec says there are more in Tokus' land. I'd like to try and see how many more.

but it's not those units I'm concerned about.

Wouldn't an AI unit with explore script just keep exploring? Sounds like a reasonable supposition for a stray chariot to me. It ran out of stuff to explore somewhere, and she probably has land in our direction unexplored (late OB with us). Other stuff (if any) is harder to explain.

 

[WastinTime]

Wouldn't an AI unit with explore script just keep exploring? Sounds like a reasonable supposition for a stray chariot to me. It ran out of stuff to explore somewhere, and she probably has land in our direction unexplored (late OB with us). Other stuff (if any) is harder to explain.

There are more units than that. A sword/cat team is a likely followup to a SoD. shulec, what was it that you recall you passed on the way thru Toku?

 

[WastinTime]

I don't see a big downside to the trade embargo. Give away Currency, but at least we get 50 gold (plus embargo). We take a -1 hit with Toku. We can tech something soon if we need another trade.

All of her units will get teleported back and we can keep an eye on them. We should be able to get our workers up to finish the boat before she could re-group. I'm not sure she would even bother attacking Gateway. I wish we had some axes up there but there was no way to get them there by now. Since we're talking about Axes.... We do have Axes up by the hopeful Cyrus city. This city (and/or Gateway) could be the key to the win. I think we should protect that one with both Axes instead of just Cook. Exploring more with the axe doesn't seem as useful.

 

[DanF5771]

Hmm, Hatse's troop movements are indeed a bit confusing. Nice find WastinTime.

I think we need to check the 1AD auto-save for Hatse-WHEOOHRN (in the diplo screen), she might have decided to plot a dogpile war against us after we DoW'd Liz.

Kaitzilla, that was your epic turnset, do you still have that save?

 

[WastinTime]

DanF! I've been praying you'd show up and shed some light on this.

 

[DanF5771]

In the T114(25BC)-save Hatse has no war plans of her own. When asked to declare on any other Gawa she denies with "We just don't like you enough".
BTW that also indicates, that she was the strongest known AI at that time. E.g. Liz denies war on Hatse with "We would have nothing to gain".

In the next uploaded T118(75AD)-save Hatse's potential private war plans are already masked by the holy war WHEOOHRN, we need to look at the T115(1AD)-save for more clues.

An AI DoW on an infidel caused by a successful holy war resolution does not make an AI drop its own war plans!!
So we might indeed be her private war target and a DoW might be imminent.
She might also plot against Cyrus (she didn't know Hammu/Shaka) but I think we are most likely the target.

War vs. Hatse would be quite detrimental to our plans for early victory, she might also defy a force-peace-resolution the next vote.

We could liberate GatewayCity to get her to PLEASED and ask for 10 to force peace.

I've encountered strange AI behavior in such a situation, they seem to immediately switch war targets to another possible 'victim' with a DoW following very soon.
Can anyone confirm? I haven't really played a game of civ for ages...

 

[shulec]

shulec, did you see my request for t119 (and 118) save if you have it? I want to see Hats troop movements. If we can block her from our mainland, it might give us enough time to get a trireme out (although I'm still for a galley if it comes out faster.) Did we calculate when the workers can get there and finish the boat?

I posted the T119 saves several posts back. T118 end turn attached.

 

[shulec]

WastinTime seems to be on to something! I moved the settler and out GG. Then uploaded the save.

Spoiler :

I think he is correct on closing borders between Hatty and Toku.

 

[mabraham]

We may want to close borders with us and Hatse too. The closure of Hatse-Toku OB would teleport her into our culture, and her DOW of us may or may not then teleport her somewhere inconvenient for us. Any idea where she would be sent? Might we abuse that?

It seems unlikely that Hatse's land route to Liz is via our culture. If so, the Liz archer that was hanging around the Toku-Hatse border would have to have come through our culture, and that wasn't possible. Also Liz hadn't met Hammu at the time. So we are left with the likely conclusion Hatse means to DOW us.

 

[shulec]

We may want to close borders with us and Hatse too. The closure of Hatse-Toku OB would teleport her into our culture, and her DOW of us may or may not then teleport her somewhere inconvenient for us. Any idea where she would be sent? Might we abuse that?.

She will be teleported to 3S of HatsTown. I it is 6 tiles from our corn. This is the closest neutral territory.

 

[DanF5771]

oh wow - *that* imminent!

We cannot cancel our open borders deal with Hatse (5turns)...

Hatse closing borders with Toku likely lets her SOD teleport to our Corn tile, unless the area is still in the fog for her (can't teleport into the fog).
Then shulec would be right, well almost -- it's 2S of HatsTown (3S is a peak in Toku's culture).

I think we really want to prevent the war declaration.

 

[shulec]

oh wow - *that* imminent!

We cannot cancel our open borders deal with Hatse (5turns)...

Hatse closing borders with Toku likely lets her SOD teleport to our Corn tile, unless the area is still in the fog for her (can't teleport into the fog).
Then shulec would be right, well almost -- it's 2S of HatsTown (3S is a peak in Toku's culture).

I think we really want to prevent the war declaration.

It won't be in fog because of vision form HatsTown.

I think our only shot at preventing war is to Liberate GatewayCity and beg for 10 gold. If we lose OB with Hatty, that would be very painful. If she won't give into our beg, we would lose Gateway anyway on a declaration.

The big question is if we close borders and foul up Hatty's approach, will she call of the war declaration. This should be tested. I can try to test later.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Hmm, Hatse's troop movements are indeed a bit confusing. Nice find WastinTime.

I think we need to check the 1AD auto-save for Hatse-WHEOOHRN (in the diplo screen), she might have decided to plot a dogpile war against us after we DoW'd Liz.

Kaitzilla, that was your epic turnset, do you still have that save?

Aye I missed it. Hatty went WHEOOHRN on T115. I was so happy with the holy war resolution that I failed being meticulous. Declaring war on Liz must have been the trigger.

WastinTime has saved us. I'm very sorry!