Oops. She should be willing to talk to us before T154 I hope with our conquering of LizTown. We need her to take LizTown from us again before we can have the victory vote.
SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Oops. She should be willing to talk to us before T154 I hope with our conquering of LizTown. We need her to take LizTown from us again before we can have the victory vote.
mabraham
Deity
!!!!!!
Holy crap, if we bulb Banking and get them into Mercantilism before the -2 religion modifier ticks, then we should have open borders next turn since the shared civic is +1 right away. +4 trade, +1 peace, +1 civic, -1 religion is +5 pleased.
What turn did we meet them again, and when can we bulb Banking?
bcool
Deity
We can bulb banking T140 but the religion already ticked over to -2
That figures. Maybe we can bribe them into Mercantilism T140 with some minor amounts of gold after gifting them Banking if we switch to Mercantilism first. That would give us from T150-T154 to spread Hindu to both the south and north Team_AI with the super caravel.
bcool
Deity
I've uploaded and think it best I stop (getting tired and there is a lot to digest if not discuss)
T139 hindu randomly spread to Hatsegawa's 7 pop city so she has 9 votes now?
T139 begged 40 gold from Hamm successfully
T140 great merchant born
T140 guilds finished
Shaka stack has macemen now and sits in his capital
Settler 16 waits to settle bait city for Hatsegawa
spy left TH and is heading towards Hatsegawas lands
Stack on its way back home
T139 hindu randomly spread to Hatsegawa's 7 pop city so she has 9 votes now?
T139 begged 40 gold from Hamm successfully
T140 great merchant born
T140 guilds finished
Shaka stack has macemen now and sits in his capital
Settler 16 waits to settle bait city for Hatsegawa
spy left TH and is heading towards Hatsegawas lands
Stack on its way back home
Spoiler :
Teleporting over ice would be quite the trick! It tends to happen in the direction of our nearest home city and most of the directions we want to travel are in the opposite direction, but we should keep it in mind if an opportunity comes up.
Nice work Bcool!!! +1 ship movement I see. 7 movement point caravel now?
Thanks to no tech brokering, we can gift the AI_Pair Currency, Machinery, Guilds, and Banking all on the same turn. Maybe we can even bribe the AI_Team to adopt Mercantilism T140 with some gold to get an extra turn. I now feel that we definitely have a shot at T156 win if the super caravel can reach the north AI team also.
mabraham
Deity
3N1W of Vilcabamba looks like a great place to store our 3rd Hindu Missionary
I think bcool mentioned that site in chat. It had a barb archer perched on it. Because of TGW, that archer is trapped there - apparently permanently. So no luck for us there.
mabraham
Deity
Okay, I've looked at the save and I think things are quite well under control.
OSS have posted a T157 save, so a T156 win is a gold medal for sure.
Assuming we get Eng in 4 turns, I counted the tiles and our stack 1NE of Kyoto could take Bulawayo T164, which presumably can be gifted to Mansa for a T166 win. Shaka doesn't even have Monarchy yet, so longbows will not be a serious problem for this approach. We can reinforce this stack with some spears(->pikes) and trebs on the way past our city. The units still in Hatse's culture can gather near Akhetaten and get a few late reinforcements from our empire in case we need to take Akhe to get the job done. We can probably plan to spread Hinduism early in Akhe to eliminate that variable.
Our GG-caravel has enough movement to scout to the north and then return to the south, perhaps picking up another missionary to go north or south as required. Even if OB works on schedule (T150-1?), it's probably not possible we could do a run from Mansa past Eastport to get another missionary to Vilcabamba to spread by T154. So a T156 win might require a war against Hatse. This could be baited with a settler between Hatse and Genghis.
We could bait war against Shaka with a new city settled between Cyrus and Genghis.
However as well as these bait cities, we can put our spies to work! HatseGift and GhostTown are close enough that we can send some spies to flip their owners into Hinduism so that we can likely DOW them without serious diplo penalties. The missions will be plenty cheap enough, and gives us something to do with our empire once the armies and missionaries are all sent. bcool already sent one spy towards Genghis on the theory that we might want backup for the scouting spy up there, but sending him to HatseGift seems good to me. Other spies can scatter to those places too. We can build new spies for Hammsville and LizTown if that looks necessary later - but really we don't need to steal more tech.
There's no problem if an AI is in Hinduism from the above flips during the resident election - our votes will kill them. Even if they stayed Hindu, Hammu seems likely to prefer to vote for us for the win (certainly over Shaka). And we only need the flips in some scenarios.
Island city could probably start a courthouse and whip it as we finish Eng. It saves 3gold/turn on maintenance, and probably another one from reduced city size, which probably is better value than we can get with our population once we stop running Caste. It's not Hindu, so doesn't affect the vote levels.
OSS have posted a T157 save, so a T156 win is a gold medal for sure.
Assuming we get Eng in 4 turns, I counted the tiles and our stack 1NE of Kyoto could take Bulawayo T164, which presumably can be gifted to Mansa for a T166 win. Shaka doesn't even have Monarchy yet, so longbows will not be a serious problem for this approach. We can reinforce this stack with some spears(->pikes) and trebs on the way past our city. The units still in Hatse's culture can gather near Akhetaten and get a few late reinforcements from our empire in case we need to take Akhe to get the job done. We can probably plan to spread Hinduism early in Akhe to eliminate that variable.
Our GG-caravel has enough movement to scout to the north and then return to the south, perhaps picking up another missionary to go north or south as required. Even if OB works on schedule (T150-1?), it's probably not possible we could do a run from Mansa past Eastport to get another missionary to Vilcabamba to spread by T154. So a T156 win might require a war against Hatse. This could be baited with a settler between Hatse and Genghis.
We could bait war against Shaka with a new city settled between Cyrus and Genghis.
However as well as these bait cities, we can put our spies to work! HatseGift and GhostTown are close enough that we can send some spies to flip their owners into Hinduism so that we can likely DOW them without serious diplo penalties. The missions will be plenty cheap enough, and gives us something to do with our empire once the armies and missionaries are all sent. bcool already sent one spy towards Genghis on the theory that we might want backup for the scouting spy up there, but sending him to HatseGift seems good to me. Other spies can scatter to those places too. We can build new spies for Hammsville and LizTown if that looks necessary later - but really we don't need to steal more tech.
There's no problem if an AI is in Hinduism from the above flips during the resident election - our votes will kill them. Even if they stayed Hindu, Hammu seems likely to prefer to vote for us for the win (certainly over Shaka). And we only need the flips in some scenarios.
Island city could probably start a courthouse and whip it as we finish Eng. It saves 3gold/turn on maintenance, and probably another one from reduced city size, which probably is better value than we can get with our population once we stop running Caste. It's not Hindu, so doesn't affect the vote levels.
bcool
Deity
I hope to play based off this informal PPP in 11-12 hours from now. feedback is welcome.
Planning for next phase, sorry was a bit unclear...
T140, T141, T142, at beginning of T143 I will move scouting units.
Research
Bulb Banking
Start engineering at 100% slider, building wealth and research as gold allows likely Engineering in 5 turns if we focus on it with wealth and reserach builds
Civic changes
Switch to Mercantilism and Slavery! (stay incaste system and paganism will help teching a small amount and I don't think we are whipping or building units in the next 5 turns)
we are whipping Moses out
can delay engineering and build some military units? anyone favor this?
Diplomacy
Gift Guilds and Banking To Team AI on T140
I don't think we will be able to bribe them into mercantilism with 90 gold. I think we should wait and let them switch on their own. I don't want to use theocracy to bribe them because it will cause problems with hinduism spreads if we get lucky and find access to northenr AI in the north Hatsegawa sea.
close borders with Toku on T140 teleport stack back. Then openborders again immediately.
We don't need to close borders with Toku for the Moses Trick to work
Voting situation
102 us -2 gift to liz
9 hatse
7 cyrus
5 toku
3 hamm
1 shaka
1 genghis
1 liz?
10? north AI
2? south AI
139? potential total votes and we have 100 of them
We might have to flip Hamm to Hindu and convert a city of his...
100/139 is only about 72% of the vote
At the very least lots of whipping isn't in our future...
resource trades with genghisgawa can be renegotiated he has +2 with us now
I will cancel stone, cancel deer, cancel gold
I will trade him gold back for his spare gold
I will trade spare deer with Hatsegawa for rice for the health (the capital is only one that is unhealthy)
I think this is okay since we will have another deer to trade if we find we need more resource diplo trading in worst case scenarios.
avoid making new resource trades for an extra gold per turn, keep them in reserve in case we need resource diplo bonuses with someone.
city builds
For T140-142 wealth or research builds. sacrificing more military to increase tech pace.
SheepTown T140 start Settler!
T141 Whip Settler! (Moses)
Delhi
Builds missionary 10
Island whips its settler since we will lose our foreign trades routes with mercantilism adoption will settle near sheep.
workers
Faraday start improving banana
Hoover will moveto forest 2S1W of sheeptown and start chop to 1W of Akhe and build a road to help reinforcements if we have to take this city from Hatsegawa.
Fritz will road 1E of Borsippa to help a theoretical stack targeted at shaka
Karl will road a hill to make a route to cyrusgawa then try to find shaka's stack
Eiffel will road south of HatsBait site (will help in worse case scenarios to get units up through Genghisgawa)
...
Units
Moses the settler heads over to a tile 2E1S of Thebes!
Missionary 9 joins Moses!
Setting up on T146 a close borders with Toku, then a close borders with Hatsegawa trick to teleport (part the sea) them over to the Incan southern AI team's land 3N1E of Vilcabamba. Settle Moses, missionary spreads hinduism, gift to Incan southern AI Team
2 0 xp axes I originally slated to disband will wait 2E1S to escort Moses
Stacks in Hatsegawa (formly from EastPort) will take 4-5 turns to be in ideal position for attack on Akhetaten. (if Hatsegawa declares earlier we could be teleported to the right tile (likely)
Our main stack is on its way home, will conitinue in that direction until T142 (beginning of T143 I should know if we have access to the north AI with the GG caravel)
I will peal off one unit and go back to scout Akhetaten
On T147 that stack could be ready to come back and be adjacent to Akhetaten if we think that is wise once we learn spreading to the north is possible without taking a city from Shaka.
Missionary 8 will hang out near settler 15 scouting Shaka's units (btwn cyrusgawa and shakagawa). On T143 when we find out if we have access to northern AI team.
If we have access I will send Missionary 8 towards Hammuragawa's lands and plan to use him to spread hinduism to Hammuragawa after the vote is called so his vote will help us get over 75%.
If we don't have access I will send missionary 8 north towards genghisgawa's lands in the hopes someone will be able to pick him up once we get OB with genghisgawa.
Missionary 8 will disband so we can build a backup missionary for the southern AI team in the east.
Will send axe 9 hunting for shaka's stack
GG caravel will move diagonally to scout north with missionary to try and find access to the northern AI team
When do we bait Hatsegawa?
There will be at least a 5 turn delay probably between settling the city up north and the DoW
I will delay settling this city until T143 (so the next player will get to decide) after I move the GG caravel and we find out the situation with access to Northern AI
I will use scout 3 to find Hatsegawa stacks to see if I can better predict if baiting will work.
espionage
switch our 4 espionage/turn to Hammuragawa
spy in Toku's lands currently will head towards HatsTown for a possible flip to Hinduism on T147 (earliest)
spy on the move in our lands will go to Hammsville, send current spy in Hammsville to Ghosttown (will move so I only spend 1 turn in Hammuragawa's culture)
For now I will leave the spy in LizTown for now, but spy needs to reach Hammsville on T149 to be available to run espionage missions against Hammuragawa at full 50% bonus
I want 2 spies in Hammsville by T149 so that we have the option to flip him out of theocracy and to hinduism on the T155 after the diplo vote might be called. (after we gift Hammsville to Hammuragawa)
spy will reach GhostTown on T42
Giving up more steals from Liz after T145... unless we want to build another spy.
International relations examination
flipping Hatsegawa to Hinduism would likely avoid diplo hits with all except cyrus (+1 visible after), hamm (+4 visible after), genghisgawa (+1 visible after)
Potentially disasterous, just keeping options open
flipping shaka to hinduism would likely avoid diplo hits with Hamm (-1), Mansa (+0), Huayana (+0)
Great People
Make an effort for a great person in the capital? sacrifice growth for ??? no
Mostly useless screenshots
Planning for next phase, sorry was a bit unclear...
T140, T141, T142, at beginning of T143 I will move scouting units.
Research
Bulb Banking
Start engineering at 100% slider, building wealth and research as gold allows likely Engineering in 5 turns if we focus on it with wealth and reserach builds
Civic changes
Switch to Mercantilism and Slavery! (stay in
we are whipping Moses out
can delay engineering and build some military units? anyone favor this?
Diplomacy
Gift Guilds and Banking To Team AI on T140
I don't think we will be able to bribe them into mercantilism with 90 gold. I think we should wait and let them switch on their own. I don't want to use theocracy to bribe them because it will cause problems with hinduism spreads if we get lucky and find access to northenr AI in the north Hatsegawa sea.
close borders with Toku on T140 teleport stack back. Then openborders again immediately.
We don't need to close borders with Toku for the Moses Trick to work
Voting situation
102 us -2 gift to liz
9 hatse
7 cyrus
5 toku
3 hamm
1 shaka
1 genghis
1 liz?
10? north AI
2? south AI
139? potential total votes and we have 100 of them
We might have to flip Hamm to Hindu and convert a city of his...
100/139 is only about 72% of the vote
At the very least lots of whipping isn't in our future...
resource trades with genghisgawa can be renegotiated he has +2 with us now
I will cancel stone, cancel deer, cancel gold
I will trade him gold back for his spare gold
I will trade spare deer with Hatsegawa for rice for the health (the capital is only one that is unhealthy)
I think this is okay since we will have another deer to trade if we find we need more resource diplo trading in worst case scenarios.
avoid making new resource trades for an extra gold per turn, keep them in reserve in case we need resource diplo bonuses with someone.
Spoiler :
city builds
For T140-142 wealth or research builds. sacrificing more military to increase tech pace.
SheepTown T140 start Settler!
T141 Whip Settler! (Moses)
Delhi
Builds missionary 10
Island whips its settler since we will lose our foreign trades routes with mercantilism adoption will settle near sheep.
workers
Faraday start improving banana
Hoover will move
Fritz will road 1E of Borsippa to help a theoretical stack targeted at shaka
Karl will road a hill to make a route to cyrusgawa then try to find shaka's stack
Eiffel will road south of HatsBait site (will help in worse case scenarios to get units up through Genghisgawa)
...
Units
Moses the settler heads over to a tile 2E1S of Thebes!
Missionary 9 joins Moses!
Setting up on T146 a close borders with Toku, then a close borders with Hatsegawa trick to teleport (part the sea) them over to the Incan southern AI team's land 3N1E of Vilcabamba. Settle Moses, missionary spreads hinduism, gift to Incan southern AI Team
2 0 xp axes I originally slated to disband will wait 2E1S to escort Moses
Stacks in Hatsegawa (formly from EastPort) will take 4-5 turns to be in ideal position for attack on Akhetaten. (if Hatsegawa declares earlier we could be teleported to the right tile (likely)
Our main stack is on its way home, will conitinue in that direction until T142 (beginning of T143 I should know if we have access to the north AI with the GG caravel)
I will peal off one unit and go back to scout Akhetaten
On T147 that stack could be ready to come back and be adjacent to Akhetaten if we think that is wise once we learn spreading to the north is possible without taking a city from Shaka.
If we have access I will send Missionary 8 towards Hammuragawa's lands and plan to use him to spread hinduism to Hammuragawa after the vote is called so his vote will help us get over 75%.
If we don't have access I will send missionary 8 north towards genghisgawa's lands in the hopes someone will be able to pick him up once we get OB with genghisgawa.
Missionary 8 will disband so we can build a backup missionary for the southern AI team in the east.
Will send axe 9 hunting for shaka's stack
GG caravel will move diagonally to scout north with missionary to try and find access to the northern AI team
When do we bait Hatsegawa?
There will be at least a 5 turn delay probably between settling the city up north and the DoW
I will delay settling this city until T143 (so the next player will get to decide) after I move the GG caravel and we find out the situation with access to Northern AI
I will use scout 3 to find Hatsegawa stacks to see if I can better predict if baiting will work.
espionage
switch our 4 espionage/turn to Hammuragawa
spy in Toku's lands currently will head towards HatsTown for a possible flip to Hinduism on T147 (earliest)
spy on the move in our lands will go to Hammsville, send current spy in Hammsville to Ghosttown (will move so I only spend 1 turn in Hammuragawa's culture)
For now I will leave the spy in LizTown for now, but spy needs to reach Hammsville on T149 to be available to run espionage missions against Hammuragawa at full 50% bonus
I want 2 spies in Hammsville by T149 so that we have the option to flip him out of theocracy and to hinduism on the T155 after the diplo vote might be called. (after we gift Hammsville to Hammuragawa)
spy will reach GhostTown on T42
Giving up more steals from Liz after T145... unless we want to build another spy.
International relations examination
flipping Hatsegawa to Hinduism would likely avoid diplo hits with all except cyrus (+1 visible after), hamm (+4 visible after), genghisgawa (+1 visible after)
Potentially disasterous, just keeping options open
flipping shaka to hinduism would likely avoid diplo hits with Hamm (-1), Mansa (+0), Huayana (+0)
Great People
Mostly useless screenshots
Spoiler :
mabraham
Deity
Update for front page
T130 Abused teleport to get a defensive stack from a bit north of Thebes up to the copper tile near EastPort. Popped gems next to Delhi!
T132 Got control of EastPort forests to chop out a trireme.
T134 Met Mali with caravel from WestPort, so contact with Inca also. Traded Mach for monarchy with Hammu. Gave Currency and Machinery to pair for the +diplo and to tech them towards Banking. Lots of discussion about how best to get Hinduism to them (e.g. tech Guilds+Banking for shared favourite civic, or conquering Hatse/Shaka/Genghis cities to gift them, or teching Astro to settle a gift city for them, or Astro for mass resource export for +diplo for OB). Hatse is coming to kill EastPort, so we'll gift that to Genghis after just one trireme. Attach GG, free upgrade, many promotions, circumnavigation = 7 movement points! Load missionary and scout south.
T135 Stole feudalism with the usual Liz cease-fire trick. Found Hatse's backup stack... we would have been toast if we'd tried to defend EastPort. Found WestPort ocean is useless for spreading Hinduism, so killed our units and gifted WestPort to Cyrus.
T136ish We know we could conquer various Shaka or Hatse cities to infect and gift to the AI pair, but we probably want to bait them into DOWing us to avoid negative diplo. Maybe our EastPort and WestPort gifts were too soon! We have some settlers still lurking to make bait cities. OB will work for the Inca. Our caravel hasn't found whether there is a place to land missionaries on the western coast of the Mali. So our strategy can't be decided yet. Also the Banking timing is likely not fast enough for a T156 win unless we get a lucky GMerchant. So we started sending some units towards Shaka so that we know which way to jump when we find out the last pieces of the puzzle.
T140 Finished Guilds, popped 31% GMerchant to bulb Banking for us, saving several turns of teching. T156 win might be possible, e.g. with OB spread to Mali and conquering Akhetaten late to gift to the Incans.
T130 Abused teleport to get a defensive stack from a bit north of Thebes up to the copper tile near EastPort. Popped gems next to Delhi!
T132 Got control of EastPort forests to chop out a trireme.
T134 Met Mali with caravel from WestPort, so contact with Inca also. Traded Mach for monarchy with Hammu. Gave Currency and Machinery to pair for the +diplo and to tech them towards Banking. Lots of discussion about how best to get Hinduism to them (e.g. tech Guilds+Banking for shared favourite civic, or conquering Hatse/Shaka/Genghis cities to gift them, or teching Astro to settle a gift city for them, or Astro for mass resource export for +diplo for OB). Hatse is coming to kill EastPort, so we'll gift that to Genghis after just one trireme. Attach GG, free upgrade, many promotions, circumnavigation = 7 movement points! Load missionary and scout south.
T135 Stole feudalism with the usual Liz cease-fire trick. Found Hatse's backup stack... we would have been toast if we'd tried to defend EastPort. Found WestPort ocean is useless for spreading Hinduism, so killed our units and gifted WestPort to Cyrus.
T136ish We know we could conquer various Shaka or Hatse cities to infect and gift to the AI pair, but we probably want to bait them into DOWing us to avoid negative diplo. Maybe our EastPort and WestPort gifts were too soon! We have some settlers still lurking to make bait cities. OB will work for the Inca. Our caravel hasn't found whether there is a place to land missionaries on the western coast of the Mali. So our strategy can't be decided yet. Also the Banking timing is likely not fast enough for a T156 win unless we get a lucky GMerchant. So we started sending some units towards Shaka so that we know which way to jump when we find out the last pieces of the puzzle.
T140 Finished Guilds, popped 31% GMerchant to bulb Banking for us, saving several turns of teching. T156 win might be possible, e.g. with OB spread to Mali and conquering Akhetaten late to gift to the Incans.
We need to gift Hammu one Missionaries to get him to spread Hinduism to increase his votes. We would probably want to do this fairly late since he has only one buddhist city.
We can found a city south of Island and try to give it to Huayanagawa. It will give him one vote, not ten.
mabraham
Deity
That T164 attack timing needs another road built on the Shaka-Hammu border, but we have a worker there to do that.
mabraham
Deity
The "2?" for the *south* AI (Huayana) is presumed to be Akhetaten... we have no idea how many votes we'll have to give north. The 10 seems a reasonable guess for Mali based on what we know of Incans.
As a backup to our war plan, we may need to try to build a galley/galleon for teleport on the coast between Hatty and Genghi. Unfortunately, Hatty will probably declare on this city. We would need to build a fort 1S to get it to the ocean because the body of water north of it has to be an inland sea.
Edit: I see where we are going. Bait Hatty to take the city I referred to above, then take Akhetaten. We need to get Astronomy after engineering in case we need it to get to Mansa via teleport.
Edit: I see where we are going. Bait Hatty to take the city I referred to above, then take Akhetaten. We need to get Astronomy after engineering in case we need it to get to Mansa via teleport.
mabraham
Deity
No. It's close enough to Corih to gift, and on the same landmass. Just like LizTown.
Count 9.5 tiles NW of Bulawayo (1.5 for a diagonal move). There must be a city there somewhere. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=320866&d=1336533469
bcool
Deity
Huayanagawa won't take Island city so he won't take another city on that island that is farther away from him.
bcool
Deity
copied into prior post. Prior post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11482949&postcount=3332 is becoming informal PPP for the final 3 turns of my turnset
Spoiler :
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