SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[mabraham]

Stacks in Hatsegawa (formly from EastPort) will take 4-5 turns to be in ideal position for attack on Akhetaten. (if Hatsegawa declares earlier we could be teleported to the right tile (likely)

Our main stack is on its way home, will conitinue in that direction until T142 (beginning of T143 I should know if we have access to the north AI with the GG caravel)

On T147 that stack could be ready to come back and be adjacent to Akhetaten if we think that is wise once we learn spreading to the north is possible without taking a city from Shaka.

When do we bait Hatsegawa?
There will be at least a 5 turn delay probably between settling the city up north and the DoW

I will use scout 3 to find Hatsegawa stacks to see if I can better predict if baiting will work.

spy will end towards Hatsegift

send spy to GhostTown too?

Settle gift about T143? (which is when we know we might want it, co-incidentally). That leaves 5-7 turns for the DOW trigger, and still at least 4 turns for us to take Akhetaten and gift it? I presume we can gift a city that is in revolt?

Also, scout Akhetaten defence.

 

[bcool]

We need to test and confirm we can gift a city in revolt. I assume so, but maybe the mechanics of accepting it are different?

noted scouting Akhetaten (will take a unit from main stack headed home to scout it)

I will put off settling the Hatse Bait city until T143 (for the next turn set) I will scout with GG caravel at the beginning of T143 to see the situation with northern AI

 

[bcool]

Okay made a slightly more formal PPP for T140, T141, T142 and beginning of T143. Here it is http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11482949&postcount=3332

some units not accounted for I think. Let me know if there are critical missing pieces or if you disagree.

I plan to play in about 10-11 hours from this post

 

[WastinTime]

Hatty got another big Hindu spread, so there may be a danger that she would stay in Hindu. So flipping her to hindu scares me. Current plan is to bait her, so we should be fine.

Another minor concern. Our current gifted city to Genghis (Eastport) might be in danger of flipping to hatty (probably only if we go past t156). It might be possible to get a missionary to the Hatty bait city and gift that to Genghis so we don't lose him as a member. Our caravel could drop him off and pick up another...(assuming it's not needed for the North AI)

Our stack. Can we do another teleport trick with Toku to send it quickly home? Saves on maintenance costs and gets us to Bulawayo faster.

I favor more military, but I'm no expert on how much we need to take the cities we want. Overkill seems like the best way.

We can gift a city in revolt, I don't know if changes the mechanics, but I doubt it.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ran some tests on a team_Gawa this morning. It looks like they cannot be bribed into Mercantilism until Friendly is reached, so there isn't anything Bcool can do there.

The test gawa usually adopted Mercantilism the next turn, but not always . Sometimes they took 4 or 5 turns or even more one other time. Elizagawa still doesn't have Banking T140 so no hint from her. It was a fast test on a generic Gawa_Team and may not have replicated the economic or whatever other conditions affect an AI civic change decision.

I now like the military backup option as I don't think our super caravel can spread to both the north and south AI in only 3 or 4 turns if we get the best case scenario. I still favor using the super caravel to spread to the north AI while gifting an infected Hatty city to the south AI. 14 turns isn't much time to do a deep thrust into Shaka's lands. Maybe if we were aiming for a T166 win by taking his city for the North_AI.



The open tile in Ghenghigawa's lands cannot support a city I think. It is 2N2W of another city and won't have enough room.

The trade embargo between Hatty and Toku is looking better and better. It is shielding EastPort from Tokugawa as much as it is protecting our mainland from Hatsegawa.

I don't think we can do the Tokugawa teleport trick to get our secondary stack home faster until 10 turns passed from when TachyWaxon used the trick to eject Tokugawa's units from our lands to do that massive tech steal.

 

[bcool]

So it occurs to me at work that we could close borders with Hatsegawa then close borders with toku and teleport all of our units to within our borders then open borders with them both. Can someone check if this would work? I would still like to keep them on toku and our border until we decide on a target.

 

[bcool]

Could we jump over to the southern AI lands with a settler and military unit and missionary? Perhaps the best place to jump would be 2E1S of Thebes

The problem is the revealed tile that I saw 3N1E of Vilcabamba had a barbarian archer there, which I have to assume prevents teleportation?

But it definitely looks possible if we close borders with Toku.

Spoiler :

Wow testing seems to indicate that the barbarian will not prevent teleportation to that tile. The barbarian is pushed aside!
And that is clearly the tile that has the min (2*jump distance + city distance) if we have closed borders with Toku

War with Hatsegawa might not be necessary...

A settler (Named Moses )whipped out of sheeptown could be in place to part the Yellow Sea by T146, we already have a missionary in the area and a military unit really wouldn't be necessary. edit: to be safe we will send 2 0 xp axes with Moses.

(closing borders like this to teleport a settler... means we can't use the closing borders trick to teleport our army out though since when we open them again we can't cancel it for 10 turns.)

To bad spies don't teleport... but we could carry one over with the GG caravel and then use espionage on the team to do what? flip them to Hindu... not good. flip them to Mercantilism... they will already be in it... hmm...

 

[WastinTime]

I Love that idea bc!
If we can teleport a settler/missionary pair(with movement left), settle, spread, liberate...all on the same turn. Wow! That's the best way to get around those barbs. That could go down as the greatest Civ move ever. It may not help our finish date since the North AI is the real problem, but it still goes in the record books. Funny how we all were such teleport-noobs a few turns ago.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Could we jump over to the southern AI lands with a settler and military unit and missionary? Perhaps the best place to jump would be 2E1S of Thebes

The problem is the revealed tile that I saw 3N1E of Vilcabamba had a barbarian archer there, which I have to assume prevents teleportation?

But it definitely looks possible if we close borders with Toku.

Spoiler :

Wow testing seems to indicate that the barbarian will not prevent teleportation to that tile. The barbarian is pushed aside!
And that is clearly the tile that has the min (2*jump distance + city distance) if we have closed borders with Toku

War with Hatsegawa might not be necessary...

A settler (Named Moses )whipped out of sheeptown could be in place to part the Yellow Sea by T146, we already have a missionary in the area and a military unit really wouldn't be necessary.

(closing borders like this to teleport a settler... means we can't use the closing borders trick to teleport our army out though since when we open them again we can't cancel it for 10 turns.)

To bad spies don't teleport... but we could carry one over with the GG caravel and then use espionage on the team to do what? flip them to Hindu... not good. flip them to Mercantilism... they will already be in it... hmm...

Whoa, we should definitely look at this idea in detail.

 

[mabraham]

There's a double teleport trick available this turn (previous trick was 10+ turns ago) to get our main stack in Hatse culture, and our stacks in Toku culture back to our own this turn. See screenshot https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B77WqgqXtbSKa0d1S0haRUFhNEE. The trailing stack in Hatse culture will teleport back to the copper whatever we do - but if we owned Trojan Horse we could get it back too. We want units to reach departure points A and C, close Hatse OB to teleport to staging point A, then close Toku OB to reach arrival points A and C, then re-open both borders.

Saved game for above test
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B77WqgqXtbSKY3liYlhjdk9tRFE

I also tested that we can gift a city in revolt, Texcoco in this game:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B77WqgqXtbSKRHZrdjBjenBDWUk

 

[Kaitzilla]

That could go down as the greatest Civ move ever.

 

[Manco Capac]

Genius! Proud to be under your wing, team leader!
Just assure a military unit to kill the archer, otherwise Huaynagawa won't accept the city liberation.
A enemy unit threatening a city in BFC region makes the AI refuses the city. So a single good unit should take care of that pest, and then perhaps up to victory thanks to you. Shame stupid Genghisgawa won't ever accept OB because it seems I've seen neutral lands in Mansagawa's landsd.

A settler (Named Moses )whipped out of sheeptown could be in place to part the Yellow Sea by T146, we already have a missionary in the area and a military unit really wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Manco Capac]

:wave:

 

[bcool]

hmm, in the test game the test Mansa accepted the city even with the barbarian threatening it. Perhaps because he has the Great Wall?

However to be safe we might as well send 2 0 xp axes over. They might be teleported somewhere interesting when we gift the city away.

 

[bcool]

There's a double teleport trick available this turn (previous trick was 10+ turns ago) to get our main stack in Hatse culture, and our stacks in Toku culture back to our own this turn. See screenshot https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B77WqgqXtbSKa0d1S0haRUFhNEE. The trailing stack in Hatse culture will teleport back to the copper whatever we do - but if we owned Trojan Horse we could get it back too. We want units to reach departure points A and C, close Hatse OB to teleport to staging point A, then close Toku OB to reach arrival points A and C, then re-open both borders.

Saved game for above test
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B77WqgqXtbSKY3liYlhjdk9tRFE

I also tested that we can gift a city in revolt, Texcoco in this game:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B77WqgqXtbSKRHZrdjBjenBDWUk

Thanks for testing these ideas out. Unfortunately teleporting our army has to be ditched if we go for the Moses teleporting plan.

The test with the gifting a city in revolt is great to know in case the moses plan doesn't work out.

 

[Manco Capac]

hmm, in the test game the test Mansa accepted the city even with the barbarian threatening it. Perhaps because he has the Great Wall?

However to be safe we might as well send 2 0 xp axes over. They might be teleported somewhere interesting when we gift the city away.

Oh, never put into account the GW. Interesting situation though. Just assure one military unit and we're safe. Especially since we won't wage war against Hatshegawa anymore.

 

[mabraham]

I refined bcool's test map a bit (removed extra island city that was too close to the jump location, reduced Genghis culture in EastPort, made the barb an archer, added Great Wall), but found that the principle holds. See https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B77WqgqXtbSKMHM3VktwbXFUR1U

Only the tile 1S2E of Thebes will work for this teleport.

Settler 16 (in the gap between Hatse and Genghis right now) can make the teleport tile with its last movement T145 if we add a road 1E of Thebes, so we can do the teleport that turn. Can't settle until T146, but if there's a Vilcabamba border pop T145-6, we'd probably still be screwed, since we can't teleport to an empty tile we don't know about, even if it exists. So maybe we want to build a new settler as bcool suggested.

 

[bcool]

I refined bcool's test map a bit (removed extra island city that was too close to the jump location, reduced Genghis culture in EastPort, made the barb an archer, added Great Wall), but found that the principle holds. See https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B77WqgqXtbSKMHM3VktwbXFUR1U

Only the tile 1S2E of Thebes will work for this teleport.

Settler 16 (in the gap between Hatse and Genghis right now) can make the teleport tile with its last movement T145 if we add a road 1E of Thebes, so we can do the teleport that turn. Can't settle until T146, but if there's a Vilcabamba border pop T145-6, we'd probably still be screwed, since we can't teleport to an empty tile we don't know about, even if it exists. So maybe we want to build a new settler as bcool suggested.

Thanks for refining the test and confirming that the plan is possible.

 

[bcool]

Okay I'm getting ready to play, any comments on other parts of the plan?

 

[bcool]

I think I'm going to keep settler16 up btwn Hatsegawa and Genghisgawa. After the plan to spread hinduism to the Incan southern Team AI is successful or after we learn more about the northern team AI access situation this settler can be used to possibly improve relations with Genghisgawa by liberating it.
I would imagine we would have to liberate it the turn we settle it.

I'm going to disband missionary 8 as well and build a backup to missionary 9 in case the Incan city's borders pop and the Moses teleportation trick doesn't work. new missionary will be waiting on the border between us and Toku (closing the borders will push him out). I will move him in if we learn the borders popped before we get a shot at teleportation.