SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[Mitchum]

Congrats on a game well played! I've got some reading to do...

 

[Kaitzilla]

I now have evidence that brokering peace between 2 Civs results in a "Cease Fire" between them and not a 10-turn peace treaty.

In a test game, I bribed Isabella to make peace with Jaoa for a bunch of gold. Then 5 seconds later I bribed her to declare war on him again.

Spoiler :

So I do not think we were the victim of a bug. We were just relying on a 10-turn peace treaty that did not exist to keep Shaka's only Hindu city 'GhostTown' safe from Hammarugawa. It did not flip, but was taken by force when Hamma declared on him the turn after the brokered peace treaty.

In hindsight, Shaka ceased to be Hamma's worst enemy on T164, so maybe we could have gifted one of our major cities to Shaka so he'd have more than GhostTown if Hamma declared again. It would have really hurt our vote total though.



**Edit** Bah, we still had 5 turns left on Hamma's open border treaty T164. Shaka was only willing to take DeerGold city T164, and the chariot in Hamsville would have captured it right away just like GhostTown fell. SBB would have been taken by Cyrus if we had managed to obtain it for Shaka. The only way Shaka could have had a Hindu city still by T166 is if we gifted him TWO or our major cities. That would probably have resulted in us not getting enough votes and losing the T166 win anyway.

 

[bcool]

We could have still gotten the gold too if I hadn't suggested peace with the ap vote on T165.

Regardless excellent game guys, 1st time Bronze, 2nd time Silver, 3rd time ???

I think ours was a sound strategy that had some risks, but it clearly could have resulted in the gold.

The Ducks had an excellent strategy as well, electing to capture the buddhist AP rather than go for a Hindu AP victory.

 

[Kaitzilla]

We could have still gotten the gold too if I hadn't suggested peace with the ap vote on T165.

Regardless excellent game guys, 1st time Bronze, 2nd time Silver, 3rd time ???

You must mean a T176 win which is still silver, but ya 10 turns faster if I hadn't selected that peace vote.

I agree on the excellent game by the team. I hope you've all had you fill of SCHEMING!

 

[kossin]

The Ducks had an excellent strategy as well, electing to capture the buddhist AP rather than go for a Hindu AP victory.

Definitely, I took your game to a t166 finish last weekend.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I now have evidence that brokering peace between 2 Civs results in a "Cease Fire" between them and not a 10-turn peace treaty.

In a test game, I bribed Isabella to make peace with Jaoa for a bunch of gold. Then 5 seconds later I bribed her to declare war on him again.

Spoiler :

So I do not think we were the victim of a bug. We were just relying on a 10-turn peace treaty that did not exist to keep Shaka's only Hindu city 'GhostTown' safe from Hammarugawa. It did not flip, but was taken by force when Hamma declared on him the turn after the brokered peace treaty.

In hindsight, Shaka ceased to be Hamma's worst enemy on T164, so maybe we could have gifted one of our major cities to Shaka so he'd have more than GhostTown if Hamma declared again. It would have really hurt our vote total though.



**Edit** Bah, we still had 5 turns left on Hamma's open border treaty T164. Shaka was only willing to take DeerGold city T164, and the chariot in Hamsville would have captured it right away just like GhostTown fell. SBB would have been taken by Cyrus if we had managed to obtain it for Shaka. The only way Shaka could have had a Hindu city still by T166 is if we gifted him TWO or our major cities. That would probably have resulted in us not getting enough votes and losing the T166 win anyway.

The diplomacy item is called "Make Peace With"; that can only mean a "Peace Treaty".

You have only replicated the same bug in another game.

There are still inexplicable nonsensical statements in the log such as a Civ making Peace with itself which are far more likely to be the result of a bug rather than a game design decision to treat "Make Peace With" as a brokered "Cease Fire" which itself is a contradiction.

No, our RL DV t165 attempt was thwarted by a BtS bug and not by a poorly understood "Make Peace With" game mechanic.

Where is the t165 SGOTM server log? The BUFFY log has obviously incorrect statements that are indicative of a bug. I'd like to see whether the SGOTM server log has similar discrepancies.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Thanks neilmeister for the best SGOTM scenario ever!

It was very challenging and a real pleasure for the team in meeting the challenge.

At least some of us (myself included) learned how to play Beyond the Sword better as a result.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

One of the best games of Civ I've ever played, if not the best. Thanks neilmeister! Too bad it's not a gauntlet so we can play again! ...and cut 50 turns off that finish.

 

[neilmeister]

Thanks for the nice compliments, they are very much appreciated.

Kakumeika was very unlucky at the end, it sucks that such a long and extremely well played game should end in such a way. I learnt everything I need to know (and lots that I don't) about teleportation and other rarely discussed elements of the game.

 

[soundjata]

Congrats on the nice victory Kakus!

The BTS program clearly cheated on you at the end.

Must have gotten angry that you were probing and scanning it inside out

 

[shulec]

Excellent job to Kaitzilla, mabraham and bcool for bringing it home! There is no doubt that our finish was disappointing, but you guy did a great job in the final stretch. Great job to everyone else too!

We were juggling about 10 different balls, it is not a surprise that one dropped. I am pleased that we didn't make a silly mistake to cause us to miss that T165 vote.

Thanks Neil for a fun and challenging game!

 

[shulec]

I tested the unresolved issue of where Hatty's stack would teleport when we asked her to close borders with Toku. I elected to give away Gateway city.

Here is where Hatty's stack teleported when bribed her to close borders with Toku.

Spoiler :

I should not have listened to my own arguments and had faith in WastinTime!

 

[mabraham]

I think one critical error we made was in not gifting a Hindu missionary to Shaka to secure a core Hindu city for him when we had OB around T130-140. Now knowing that a brokered peace deal is only a cease fire, despite the name, relying on Shaka to keep GhostTown and using Hammu-Shaka war was skating on thin ice. Thinner than our usual ice, that is!

Optimal strategy should be brittle, of course. One should invest in scouting for what might happen, rather than in defence for all things that could happen. Now you can afford thin margins and high production of things that address the objective.

 

[shulec]

Looking back, our finest strategic move has to be the LizTown gift. Kudos to bcool I think!

Our biggest turning point was to turn a war declaration (the unfisted WHEOOHRN) from Toku into a positive. Going from a bare bones bunch of warriors to stop his stack, sue for techs from both him and Hammuragawa and setting the table for our first Holy War with Shaka. DanF discovered we were in trouble with just enough time and Sun Tzu Wu guided us through an amazing war with Toku.

 

[Manco Capac]

Thanks mabraham/bcool for not having lost faith and for salvaging the game.

So I do not think we were the victim of a bug. We were just relying on a 10-turn peace treaty that did not exist to keep Shaka's only Hindu city 'GhostTown' safe from Hammarugawa. It did not flip, but was taken by force when Hamma declared on him the turn after the brokered peace treaty.

I am thinking the same way as I vaguely remembered in another game I could bribe onto some AI just after forcing peace via bribe.
Anyways, through "errors" we learn.

 

[WastinTime]

Congrats gang!
Sorry I was out of town for the final push. I was reading along, but couldn't really help steer :-(
I thought that last Hindu spread to Bulawayo was all we had to worry about. Wish I could have done some testing, but probably couldn't have saved us anyway.

 

[bcool]

You must mean a T176 win which is still silver, but ya 10 turns faster if I hadn't selected that peace vote.

I agree on the excellent game by the team. I hope you've all had you fill of SCHEMING!

No Ducks finished 1220 AD (T182) so I think a T176 would have been gold.

 

[bcool]

I now have evidence that brokering peace between 2 Civs results in a "Cease Fire" between them and not a 10-turn peace treaty.

In a test game, I bribed Isabella to make peace with Jaoa for a bunch of gold. Then 5 seconds later I bribed her to declare war on him again.

Spoiler :

So I do not think we were the victim of a bug. We were just relying on a 10-turn peace treaty that did not exist to keep Shaka's only Hindu city 'GhostTown' safe from Hammarugawa. It did not flip, but was taken by force when Hamma declared on him the turn after the brokered peace treaty.

In hindsight, Shaka ceased to be Hamma's worst enemy on T164, so maybe we could have gifted one of our major cities to Shaka so he'd have more than GhostTown if Hamma declared again. It would have really hurt our vote total though.



**Edit** Bah, we still had 5 turns left on Hamma's open border treaty T164. Shaka was only willing to take DeerGold city T164, and the chariot in Hamsville would have captured it right away just like GhostTown fell. SBB would have been taken by Cyrus if we had managed to obtain it for Shaka. The only way Shaka could have had a Hindu city still by T166 is if we gifted him TWO or our major cities. That would probably have resulted in us not getting enough votes and losing the T166 win anyway.

You used a test game with the team AI in it with 8 other single players. I think this might be the source of the problem. Your test game as STW has suggested doesn't prove that the 1 team AI didn't cause the peace deal mechanics to fail or not work as intended.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Congrats to the team.

I'm sorry I was away for the last month or so but RL got between the game and me so I didn't play at all during that time. I was triying to catch up and follow along the team, but it was going too fast in the end.

Congrats to all the other teams who finished. I thought the game was impossible to win at some point.

Who won the gold btw? plastic ducks again? I'll check now

cheers

 

[Duckweed]

Congratulation for a very well planned and played game. Your strategy fits this map the best, nice to see another competitive team rising.