# SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 15, 2012.

1. ### Manco CapacFriday,13 June,I Collapse

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I think changes may occur on this section.

----------------------------------------------

Labor section upkeep formula.

Labor civics upkeep:
[D * [ O * ( [ P * (N-10) ] + [ C * (M+1) ] ) ] ]

D: difficulty
O: organized trait
P: upkeep type for population parameter(Low, medium or high)
N: total population
C: upkeep type for city parameter (different values than P)
M: number of cities

Brackets are rounded down done.

It resumes to

[0.85*[1*([ 0.10 * (7-10) ] + [ 0.5 * (2+1) ] ) ] ]
=[0.85*1]
=0 upkeep

For three cities (early stage):

[0.85*[1*([ 0.10 * (8-10) ] + [ 0.5 * (3+1) ] ) ] ]
[0.85*2]
=1

Anyways, the upkeep types values are likely obsolete by now. I guessed negative values meant equal to zero (meaning not reaching the critical state yet just like inflation).

Credit to Roland Johansen.

Count this as my nth misinformation post.

2. ### DanF5771Chieftain

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Oops, sorry - I was wrong in focussing too much on a loss-free reduction of the 'dirty' overflow beakers from PH. For the overall calculation it is better to follow the original plan = regular binary research BW->PH->TW, this gets us 1 more clean OF after TW.

^@Tachy re Slavery cost:

The formula is still correct but two parameters changed: D = 1 for Emperor and P = 0.12.

With 3 cities Slavery will indeed cost us 1 more than Tribalism, but not so with 4 cities (or 6) as long as our total population is either < 19 or in the range 23...26.
See the following table for differences in civic upkeep Slavery-Tribalism as a function of total population (N) and number of cities (M):

3. ### Manco CapacFriday,13 June,I Collapse

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That point just caught my attention...indeed I tested it and really interesting way but expensive to reach and gain contact with a blocked AI (icy Izzy?) by mountains. For instance, we see culture fringes of a civilization, but cannot be reached for a long time: city gift along another unit and boom contact made.

We shall keep this in mind.
Are teleportation towards fog possible? Well, in spite I can hardly imagine the closest to friendly lands won't be explored (likely the lands from which we come). Anyways, never hurt to ask it.

This. I am curious since bcool call way back in the first posts about your position on this.

4. ### DanF5771Chieftain

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Yes and even without spotting foreign culture anywhere, checking Alt+F1 regularly can give very valuable info about 'close' neighbors.

Jumping into the fog is impossible, the tiles to teleport to must be revealed - this could be done by our culture on the peaks. The code chooses the tile that has the smallest doubled jump-distance and is located closest to our nearest city:

Min(2*JumpDistance + CityDistance).

Say we were to sneak a Settler and a Warrior (+Settler & Missionary?) to the spot you proposed and Hammu settles some cites south and SW so that his culture blocks the tiles towards Bombay, teleportation through/over the northern mountains would work ...
Again costly, but could save precious turns compared to the time needed to get him to pleased for open borders.

Thanks for the offer, appreciate it very much but I'd prefer to maintain my current status of 'advisor'. (granted a very active one, way more than planned...)

5. ### Sun Tzu WuChieftainSupporter

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The Min() function usually takes two arguments, but the above invocation has only one. Please advise.

Sun Tzu Wu

6. ### mabrahamChieftain

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I like DanF's suggestions for shulec's PPP, which is also generally good. I'll have a play-through with the T62 eastern Oracle now. I'm not concerned by having a glut of workers, because we will have a glut of nothing to build in cities after the Oracle - yes, granaries and libraries will happen, but we'll have plenty of time to kill by spamming settlers onto all our coastal sites, and the workers will make all of that happen usefully (and cottage the river lands also). Roads to Hamm are also useful since we won't have Sailing any time soon.

7. ### Manco CapacFriday,13 June,I Collapse

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Hammu will get Sailing any time soon starting with Fishing and possessing some sea foods. The moment we observe sea foods with 5 or higher, this will mean lighthouse built, thus Sailing online for them. In that case, a new Hammy city may help him to close the gap or we help him by road that only tile next to the mountainous river. In other words, road there isn't a pressing issue.

8. ### bcoolChieftain

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The program computes what square has the minimum of (2*jumpdistance + citydistance). This was discussed in the last sgotm I believe. And the square with the minimum is where the unit is teleported.

9. ### mabrahamChieftain

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I tried the 6-worker T62 Oracle approach along the lines of DanF above, and liked it. I built settler-worker-worker-settler in Delhi, and had to build an extra road and whip Delhi to get the last settler in time to settle T61 to get culture on the third chop to eke out the Oracle. If we were to get Hindu spread in SheepGold then we'd not need to worry, and could settle the gems site instead. Screenshot of result attached.

It's possible that settler-worker-settler-settler is better in Delhi, with DeerGold building constant workers. That may give up some TGW fail gold. We can decide that next turn set. It is also possible that some spare worker turns can get an earlier extra chop in the capital to get settler-worker-worker-settler done faster.

There's certainly not enough room to get the job done with only 5 workers.

The fast route south around the hills for settling SheepGold gets growth to size 2 a turn earlier, which I think is good. TW won't be ready in time regardless of the settler route.

I think Amundsen should bust fog 1SW of the gold. In combination with the visibility Toku gets from the culture of both of his cities off various hills, this busts fog off every eastern tile. This frees up the new warrior to bust fog 1W of marble - which we need in order to maximize the chance that the marble improvement is not delayed.

Please name all the new units when you play, shulec.

Attached updated test game - there's enough gold to get BW on schedule, and the forest W of NW deer is now added.

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10. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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RE: settler spam
Can you explain the strategy here? I see no use for extra cities with no resources or forests to make them useful additions to our empire. Is this part of a city gifting strategy?

They way I see it, we will be building barracks, Axes, and Cats and fighting...probably on both fronts. Our workers are going to sit around and maybe make a cottage (that will go unworked) or re-build pillaged tiles. There's no place to make roads to, and not much else to chop. The workers can't do hardly anything for the coastal cities you mentioned.

What exactly is the plan with the Oracle in the East? Is it so important that we rape our land of most forests just to get it out a couple turns earlier? I'm not saying I feel safe delaying the Oracle, but do we really need it in the East?

Instead of just disagreeing, I would like to test some alternatives and provide my own suggestions, but first I want to understand if Oracle-East is key to our city flipping/gifting strategy...and I'd like to see if we get copper, so I give thumbs up to play that far.

If Oracle-East is mainly to flip the corn, then I'm against that idea. We will soon own that corn city, so there is no reason to have the corn in both cities.

11. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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If it's not too late to stop the run to BW, I have a test going that would require a couple immediate changes. I will post within the hour my results.

12. ### Manco CapacFriday,13 June,I Collapse

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IIRC, it certainly has to do with corn stealing, but provoking a land stealing had purpose to bring Toku of Japan to DoW us to spare ourselves the need to DoW him first (sparing diplo hits).

Copper appearance should come around the time the settler is out. Then, we might make new decisions before committing further the initial plan.

Go ahead to lay down another alternative, plenty of time; I doubt shulec would appear now at this hour to play his turnset. In 2 hours from this post, normally, he goes to bed.

Okay, found the original goal:

13. ### shulecGrrrrr... I AM the force!Hall of Fame Staff

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I don't think there is any real hurry. I was just trying to move the game forward, playing if no one had input, or light a fire under those not commenting.

14. ### shulecGrrrrr... I AM the force!Hall of Fame Staff

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I really have no strong feelings on this. My original ppp had no switch until needed. I switched it because in my test games, there was no maintenance for it (DanF clarified this). The only downside of waiting is if we need OR, CS or HR in less than five turns. Clearly this would not be an immediate issue.

15. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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So I was messing around with the idea of popping out a FW with slavery. Still an idea I'm considering. To do that ASAP, we would want to put 1 turn into a FW in Delhi, so we can use slavery the same turn we get BW. If we know we don't want to do that, then we can play to BW.

I don't think we have to do anything to get Toku to come at us with a stack. that will happen. And as I said before, there's no need to steal corn from a city we plan to own soon. I also don't like more G.prophet points spread around--so simply build the Oracle in Delhi. I don't like random great people. We may only want one or two GPro early and then no more. We may need several GS to bulb Astro, etc.

16. ### bcoolChieftain

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I ran out of steam today to do any tests. I will try to explore WastinTime ideas via testing tomorrow. I think it does make sense to keep the great prophet points in Delhi and bending over to get the Oracle for cultural pressure in the side city might not be worth the effort it takes.

17. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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So if we do want to whip out a worker, we may want to consider stopping the Warrior now and just build 4 turns settler, 1 turn worker (whip). We can finish the warrior when we grow.

My test showed Oracle T62 with only 3 workers and zero forests lost.

18. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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LOL. I think the English expression you want is "bending over backwards".
"bending over" is something entirely different!
Urban Dictionary

19. ### mabrahamChieftain

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If we settle 1W of gold, then the gems city and the cows city build themselves pretty much - but we still need two settlers. There are options for a marble-banana-possible-seafood city, or a fish-marble city, or a northern wheat city if we want them. We will need some coastal cities for building caravels, and precisely because we won't have any big coastal hammer cities, we'll want a handful that are up at a good size for whipping a caravel or two. In principle, we want three caravel+missionary teams to hit the road very soon after Optics, and some replacement caravels building to take the next missionaries as soon as we get the first gifts off.

I'm envisaging a largely peaceful RL VC, where our victory date is accelerated by earlier AI contacts and earlier caravel+missionary gifts. A war with Toku will happen, but I hope for an efficient defensive phase while we tech up to Machinery, and then a crossbow phase to take Osaka.

That requires that we find metal and tech up to Maths+Construction. That tech slows down the advent of Optics. Why do we need to conquer more land? You usually don't need lots of population to get enough votes to win the usual sort of RL VC. The two AIs we might be able to kill early are those most likely to have a spontaneous Hindu spread to save us time on Hindu-spreading.

In my mostly-peaceful scenario, various of my suggested coastal sites will need to organize their food supply and their handful of Gmines - the sooner the better, and so a collection of workers is useful there. Our river cities will run some scientists for a GPerson or two, but then will need to work whatever mixture of hammers for units or cottages for commerce makes sense.

The east plan was partly hoping to use the Oracle culture to put pressure on Osaka after we capture it, to hope we get to use Osaka as a gift-rort for some AI that still has fewer than 4 cities at the time. That's a bit of a frail reed, though.

Culture-capturing the corn (which might take until about T90-95 in one test I ran) also buffs the city site 1W of gold into a massive hammer thing at about the time we'd like to be building the AP.

Perhaps we need some data on how soon we can build a T62ish Oracle in Delhi, and follow that up with a force that can do serious damage to Toku. We can probably get Osaka in a sneak attack with a pile of axes, but Kyoto will need siege support. Protective and Aggressive is a pain. So are Hammu's bowmen. We'll want to wait until we have BW to find our hoped-for copper before doing extensive testing. We'd also want some data on when he might be likely to DOW us. If Toku won't DOW us for a while, the military approach starts to hurt. We also don't want to build up too fast, lest our power rating discourage his DOW.

What turn number is "soon"? We won't have Writing until T65-70 depending whether we stop off for AH. We need some feel for when Toku will DOW us (or to hope we can DOW both Gawas before we meet other AIs, so we don't take diplo penalties).

I see the war-monger strategy as likely to slow down our advance to caravels, which allow us both to find out the scope of what we need to do in order to execute our RL VC, and get it done faster. Building the Oracle specifically in the east is largely tangential to this, but I think a culture capture of corn around T90 + Optics is likely to be faster than conquering Osaka + Optics, even if Toku DOWs us exactly when we want him to.

20. ### bcoolChieftain

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How many forests are we proposing to chop for the Oracle and workers?

5 forests chopped early is only a loss of 50 hammers... Settling a city or 2 a bit earlier and getting a few extra workers might make up for that in no time.

The Oracle in the sheep/gold/corn site does free up the capital to build these workers/settlers.

mabraham makes a pretty good argument for getting these side cities up. And in the worst case we will have a larger empire to whip when the time comes for war.

Do you guys (mabraham & WastinTime) still have your T62 saves? So we can compare the advantages of the Oracle in sheep/gold/corn vs. the Oracle in the capital?

Oracle in sheep/gold/corn advantages (Which I believe is 1E of the gold not 1W of the gold)
frees up the capital for building settlers and workers for coastal cities and eventual whipping of caravels)
cultural pressure on Osaka
opens up possibility of deer/cows city

plan has us chop 5? forests pre-math (fewer forests to chop for the AP?)
spreads out the Great Prophet gp leading to mixed great people births later (and perhaps a slower second Great Prophet?)
workers will have little to do?

Other considerations...

Great Person Plan
If we split the great Prophet gp can we instead go with
1 Great Prophet to save for bulbing Theology
2 Great Scientists (one to bulb machinery and one to bulb optics) (can we produce these in Deer/Gold city and not worry about great people contamination?)

If we do get a later great person from a contamination pool it could be used for the shrine perhaps if it is a prophet, a Golden Age perhaps, or a Paper bulb for a great scientist.
I think we can get by with 3 great people this game. Any great people beyond a Great Prophet and 2 Great Scientists would probably be more than we need.
Bulbing Astronomy will be difficult since we will have to get Theology and then that opens up the paper-education bulbing path.

If we don't split the Great Prophet gp is it even possible not to get 2 Great Prophets?
I think we definitely want to think about how to get our 2 great scientists as soon as we possibly can, so maybe splitting the great prophet points is a good thing.