SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[WastinTime]

I see 8 chopped forests in Dan's plan.

Too many cities (that don't have great food or a great commerce tile) are going to kill our tech rate. I don't like to have those before currency.

A fleet of caravels/missionaries floating around in a big lake aren't going to help much. From what I've seen of the evilness of the map(maker), I don't expect to find all the AI by caravel. We are likely going to need to plow thru one or both of our neighbors, then get a coastal city in the Far East to cross more water.

Maybe we just want to tech machinery/optics naturally if we plan to go all the way to Astronomy. This game is designed to stop RLDV. If he went to the trouble of giving us multi-Tokus, I'm sure there is an ocean in our way too.

 

[bcool]

Here is a sloppy test that gets optics and theology by 125 BC.
followed path of oracle in corn/sheep/gold city

I only have a total of 7 cities (one settled very late). Our tech rate wasn't too bad. I traded for half of alphabet, code of laws, sailing, and aesthetics I believe. I never teched currency which was probably a mistake. I only opened open borders very late with my neighbor (impossible in real game probably). But we might meet someone via the water, so not impossible that we might get foreign trade routes

I'm sure we can improve on this by about 10 turns.

I'm a little worried about the AP since waiting for the great scientists to come delayed my bulbing of theology quite a bit. An earlier switch to caste system and better planning of the libraries might help. I ended up getting my great scientists out of deer/cow city and pigs/gems city.

I built the Hanging Gardens in deer/gold to accelerate the push for the great scientists.

I have a very small army, and the fish/marble city was settled quite late. So I only have 2 cities able to build caravels for us.

I did build a few cottages very late. I mostly built farms. I did build quite a bit of research near the end. (obviously wealth builds would have been better, but I didn't have currency)

The workers did seem to have useful things to do. So I don't think 6 workers is too many. Of course I was a bit sloppy with them.

Anyways I hope it might give us some insight into how the game might develop.

 

[mabraham]

I see 8 chopped forests in Dan's plan.

Too many cities (that don't have great food or a great commerce tile) are going to kill our tech rate. I don't like to have those before currency.

Sure, currency would be nice - in the usual scenario you can get foreign trade routes for 2-3. However that's unlikely here whether we settled them sooner or later. Each each of those cities past the fifth or so accesses 1 from the central tile, 1 from a trade route, and further from working seafood or marble or (in most cases) a couple of river cottages. So that sounds to me fairly neutral for the economy in the short term - and better later on if we need to tech out to Astro (say). Expansion beyond the available worker support is painful, but if our plan for the Oracle involves having a lot of buff workers we can keep those resources working for us in a way that gives us productivity (caravel access) and insurance (cottages for a possible late game). An extra 1 from Currency shouldn't be a significant factor for us.

A fleet of caravels/missionaries floating around in a big lake aren't going to help much. From what I've seen of the evilness of the map(maker), I don't expect to find all the AI by caravel. We are likely going to need to plow thru one or both of our neighbors, then get a coastal city in the Far East to cross more water.

Good point, it is possible that we are in a big lake. Still, going all out to conquer a Gawa doesn't gather information about that question. Sure, we'll eventually get some units to the other side to meet an AI or two, but there's no surety that the Gawas are not constrained to the same lake as us. We might have to conquer the next guy to get access...

Maybe we just want to tech machinery/optics naturally if we plan to go all the way to Astronomy. This game is designed to stop RLDV. If he went to the trouble of giving us multi-Tokus, I'm sure there is an ocean in our way too.

Even if there are oceans, we only need Astro for RL VC if the only way we can get the job done is to gift a Hindu city on their land mass (be that conquered or settled). The only scenario I can envisage where we need to do that and cannot gift missionaries (with or without caravels) is where one or more AIs are landlocked and we can't get OB. It doesn't seem right to make an early assumption that this condition is true.

A sound working assumption is that the mapmaker tried to make multiple VCs possible if the VC was unspecified and non-obvious. The combination of walls and non-OB neighbours makes gathering information for choice of VC difficult, and execution of most of them more difficult. So far we can observe:

• Military VCs are difficult (AggPro neighbour with castle, Agg neighbour with bowmen, no other neighbours, mountain wall for at least partial isolation, no ivory - we don't know about horses/copper/iron)
• Space is difficult (few neighbours, no early OB, no tech brokering)
• UN diplo may be tricky (at least early religious block against us, no tech brokering)
• RL diplo is tricky (restricted to Hinduism, early religious block against us, difficult to get fast AI contracts and spreads)
• Culture looks about normal (peaceful access to decent chunk of cities)

Needing Astro will slow military and RL down to similar extents, I feel. Each will be faster the sooner the need for Astro is identified. That makes Alpha and Optics target techs.

 

[mabraham]

Here is a sloppy test that gets optics and theology by 125 BC. .

That's T110, for those of us who have no idea what dates mean for different game speeds.

 

[mabraham]

I'm a little worried about the AP since waiting for the great scientists to come delayed my bulbing of theology quite a bit. An earlier switch to caste system and better planning of the libraries might help. I ended up getting my great scientists out of deer/cow city and pigs/gems city.

Optics is higher priority for bulbing than Paper, so we only need one GScientist to spend on Mach, before we bulb Theol for the AP (and also can start the Fishing tech tree).

 

[mabraham]

How many forests are we proposing to chop for the Oracle and workers?

It's four chops in DeerGold, three in the eastern city, probably settling the deer-cows on another, and maybe one in the capital.

5 forests chopped early is only a loss of 50 hammers... Settling a city or 2 a bit earlier and getting a few extra workers might make up for that in no time.

Even if it's 80 hammers "lost" from 8 early chops, we're still getting stuff from them. I think diluting the prophet GP is necessary to avoid two GProphets. In my early test game experience with T63ish Oracle in the capital, we'd get one GPro around T65-70, which would get another around T95 (if we built Kashi with the first, which we probably won't). We could get one GScientist out in the gap if we focus on it (6base /turn from two scientists with Philo need 17 turns to pop a GScientist), but with no building infrastructure anywhere before T65, it will be nearly impossible to get two scientists out from our side cities before a second GPro pops from the capital as the third GPerson. The second city needs to work pair scientist for 25 turns to get a GScientist third. If we get DanF's test game we can verify if this is possible. Edit The important thing here is getting two useful GScientists before an inconvenient second GProphet. Only one of the GScientists needs to precede the use of the first GPro to bulb Theol. Birth constraints and use constraints are different.

Do you guys (mabraham & WastinTime) still have your T62 saves? So we can compare the advantages of the Oracle in sheep/gold/corn vs. the Oracle in the capital?

Four cities (size 4/3/2/1) 6 workers, T62 eastern oracle with 21 sustainable /turn. Almost enough cash in the bank to finish AH. This could perhaps be improved upon via settler-worker-settler-worker in the capital.

 

[WastinTime]

I don't have my save. I only got close and then calculated the Oracle complete turn.

 

[bcool]

Optics is higher priority for bulbing than Paper, so we only need one GScientist to spend on Mach, before we bulb Theol for the AP (and also can start the Fishing tech tree).

Ah, this would let us most likely finish the AP by ~T100 as well as getting optics.

Four cities (size 4/3/2/1) 6 workers, T62 eastern oracle with 21 sustainable /turn. Almost enough cash in the bank to finish AH. This could perhaps be improved upon via settler-worker-settler-worker in the capital.

This is pretty good. My reservations about early forest chops and lots of early workers are satisfied at least.

I have a few questions though...

Why settle deer/cows instead of pigs/gems first?
I probably can answer myself... we don't have animal husbandry yet. However are we considering the longer term question of where to produce our great scientists?


I'm assuming we should produce a great scientist in cows/deer city. We can produce the other great scientist in pigs/gems most likely.

Pigs/gems might take longer so maybe we want to settle pigs/gems first, so it has a bit more time to grow earlier. Plus getting gems online a bit earlier isn't a bad thing.

 

[mabraham]

Ah, this would let us most likely finish the AP by ~T100 as well as getting optics.

This is pretty good. My reservations about early forest chops and lots of early workers are satisfied at least.

I have a few questions though...

Why settle deer/cows instead of pigs/gems first?

As in post #709, the three chops on the Oracle are not within the culture of the SheepGold city in time unless we get a Hindu spread in the east. Settling DeerCow puts culture on the third chop tile just in time for the tile to be allocated to SheepGold. So if we don't get Hindu spread in SheepGold then we might want to reconsider our Oracle date (the monument will pop the SheepGold borders T62 to give a T63 Oracle with three full-culture-value chops) so that we can reconsider settling out by the gems. Then the two workers that improve the marble can head east T61 to get the gems working T63.

I probably can answer myself... we don't have animal husbandry yet. However are we considering the longer term question of where to produce our great scientists?

I'm assuming we should produce a great scientist in cows/deer city. We can produce the other great scientist in pigs/gems most likely.

Pigs/gems might take longer so maybe we want to settle pigs/gems first, so it has a bit more time to grow earlier. Plus getting gems online a bit earlier isn't a bad thing.

DeerCows is likely the place we can get up library+scientists first for the critical first Gscientist, simply because its food excess on two improved tiles is 6 (once we have AH). Its forest chops can help also. Pig/gems would be next on 5, but its hammer supply for building the library is a lot lower. I don't think we want to consider the gold cities for Gscientist production because we'd have to stop working the gold to be competitive. (Culture-captured corn arrives too late to matter.) We'd like to avoid the capital for scientist production to avoid the chance of GPro pollution.

So there's merit in DeerCows first to allow us to bulb Theol to get started on AP earlier (with perhaps the side benefit of securing T62 Oracle), and merit in PigsGems first to perhaps bulb Optics sooner (with the benefit of earlier gems).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

[*]Military VCs are difficult (AggPro neighbour with castle, Agg neighbour with bowmen, no other neighbours, mountain wall for at least partial isolation, no ivory - we don't know about horses/copper/iron)

A Spy doing a "Support City Revolt" mission can be a way to deal with the Castle, assuming a stack that can attack immediately after the successful Spy mission.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[DanF5771]

I tried the 6-worker T62 Oracle approach along the lines of DanF above, and liked it. I built settler-worker-worker-settler in Delhi, and had to build an extra road and whip Delhi to get the last settler in time to settle T61 to get culture on the third chop to eke out the Oracle.

With the right worker micro whipping Delhi is not necessary. The road 1SE of Delhi is also not needed for the T60-Settler to found DeerCow on T61 as the city's tile is already chopped (13->Settler). So we can have cities with population 5/3/2/1 on T61. I think parts of the 'lost' forests can be regained by stealing forested tiles from Toku with Oracle-culture. T90 for culture capture of Corn is imho very conservative, I assume we'll get our hands on it much sooner.

Sorry, not much time to test stuff right now.

The GS should indeed come from DeerCow as our 2nd GP (17 turns). Delhi can time the 3rd GP = GProphet to appear very soon after that by assigning Kashi-Priests (3 slots). Yes I strongly vote for our 1st GProphet->Kashi for its immediate usefulness. This way we should get Machinery and Theo around 450BC (T97). Not sure about the other GS->Optics, we might think about support from the Great Library. (We need Aesth for the Machinery bulb and have Poly).

PigGems could build Triremes continuously once we have Sailing, these can be upgraded to Caravels for 50 each taking away some pressure of founding many more coastal cities ...

Are there any questions open that prevent us from playing until BW?

 

[bcool]

I don't think there are any open questions that would prevent us from playing until BW.

We do need to consider that we will soon have to pick up the pace of the turnsets. We have been taking our time early on which is okay, but we will have to be a little more strict as the deadline becomes closer.

Re: Kashi

I'm not convinced that we want to use our 1st great prophet for Kashi. I would like to see it demonstrated that we won't delay optics significantly.
I had to use a traded for code of laws and a late switch to caste system to get the 2nd great scientist (the 3rd great person) out for optics by T110.
The Great Library would help but
1) adds literature to the list of techs that we need to research.
2) city that builds it might have a tough time building the great library and running scientists at the same time.

 

[bcool]

DanF, do you have a save game out to T62? I would like to try another test game to assess the possibilities of the great library helping to get our 4th great person for optics. And I'm not quite clear on the micro necessary for a T62 Oracle and situation you describe in your post.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I agree with bcool regarding the Hindu Holy Shrine. I see little value in having it. In fact I would bulb Code of Laws, if we get a second Great Prophet.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

I'm on the fence regarding the shrine. What is the spread formula? Is it completely shut down in the case of.... Ocean? closed borders? Contact made? Theocracy? Other existing religion? etc?

 

[shulec]

Goals:
Fail gold from TGW
Set up for Oracle and Corn steal at Gold Sheep site
Start up mass worker build.

Dehli
T41 Work Corn, FP, Mine, and Forest; Finish warrior, expecting 3 overflow .
T42 Work Corn, 3 Mines; build TGW
T43-48 Work Corn, 3 Mines, FP; build settler
T49-50 Build worker

Settler: Head southeast around the hills to tile 1W of gold.

Deergold City (Formerly Bombay)
T41-48 Build Worker
T49 Finish worker, start new worker
T50 Cont. worker build

Workers
Eiffel
Move to Deer, build camp
Finish Camp, move 1W and chop forest.
T49-50 Move 1S1E, chop forest

Fritz
T49-50 Move 1S and chop.

Warriors
Amundson
Move 1S1W for 2 consecutive turns to end 1S1W of gold.

Burke
1N1W Fog bust three turns, then head back toward Dehli to fogbust southern region.

Cook
1N1W, the 1S1W, move to choke spot NW of Deergold City

De Soto (new warrior)
Warrior produced T 42. Head south to fog bust/cover for settler based on animal seen, then return to 1W of marble.

Research
BW=>PH=>Wheel
Binary research.

Civics
Do not adopt slavery

Espionage
Always on Hamuragawa.

Stopping points:
WHEOOHRN
Meet a new AI.
A dilemma regarding animals or barbs.
An info that breaks the planned game.
TGW or Oracle built by AI.
Resource popping on a mined hill.
BW researched

Miscellaneous:
Look for AI culture in satelite view
Save game
Note (using Alt+S) forest/jungle growth, animals/barbs appearing etc.
Take screenshots if interesting developments.

 

[shulec]

I will try to play these 5 turns about 24 hours from this post.

 

[mabraham]

Thanks for the clues on how to do the eastern Oracle better, DanF. I succeeded in reproducing it. Saved game is attached below.

I ran a test game to see when we might be able to get GScientists and where. I built Kashi T64, assuming TGW built elsewhere T58 (so we get fail gold then) and we get Oracle in east T62.

With suitable focus on building the appropriate libraries:

• Two GScientists out of DeerCow could happen T93 T118
• Could get one in DeerCow and one in DeerGold T93 T102ish
• Could get one in DeerCow and one in PigGems T93 T110

We do have the option of a 45% GScientist T83 from Delhi, then T101 GScientist from DeerCow then T108 64% GScientist. If we get the early GPro, then that's in good time to bulb Theol and start AP. If we get the early GSci then whether that's good depends on whether we get tech trades in the real game. If we were to get two GPro (0.55*0.36=0.198) then we're in some trouble - the next certain GSci from anywhere is around T140.

If we took the DeerCow-DeerGold option then we'd probably be able to manage a GPro from Delhi T115ish, but that's rather late for us to secure Theol for the AP.

Anyway, when I got to the point where I could judge those GScientist dates, I played on the Delhi plan.

AH, Writing Maths Aesth takes until about T85. Still need Alpha and IW before we can bulb Mach. Probably should get Mono for OR somewhere there.

Sixth city settled T84, 46 sustainable per turn, running 4 scientists, have 4 Hindu cities so Kashi is only having a tiny effect.

T102 finished pre-Mach tech path with 7 cities and the last settler moving, using no OB or tech trades, bulbed Mach. Maybe could do a little better with use of OR if spreads work more effectively. Still haven't culture-captured the corn from Mansa of the Aztecs (with just a T62 Oracle and T95ish library, so there's a lesson here - my T90 estimate from an earlier game may have been optimistic). The AP just got built elsewhere. T102 save attached.

I think that's a fair model of what might happen in the real game - no OB and no tech trades mean there's no rush for our GScientists for our bulb out to Optics.

 

[mabraham]

Shulec's updated PPP seems to have this, but here's where I'd suggest we try to bust fog in the short term. Note that Toku's culture from both cities will bust every other land tile in the east.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'm on the fence regarding the shrine. What is the spread formula? Is it completely shut down in the case of.... Ocean? closed borders? Contact made? Theocracy? Other existing religion? etc?

I believe that trade routes are required and open borders are not required for natural spread.

One time I tried constructing a Holy Shrine, it spread its religion (TAP) to several cities of the "wrong" Civ. I'm aginst it for two reasons, it doesn't reliably improve natural spread and there is no control over which cities it spreads to.

Here's the Bible on Religion (my opinion of this article):

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/religions.php

Sun Tzu Wu