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SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika
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DanF5771
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I agree that a Shrine is not optimal in a regular game or even a HOF game with selected AI opponents where you try to get the earliest AP victory date. In these games taking the 'controlled' route via perfectly timed Missionary spread through uncomplicated open borders is certainly better. But in this SGOTM the religious and diplomatic situation is very different, turning the Shrine in my view into a very useful tool.Sun Tzu Wu said:
The Kashi does increase the chances of natural Hindu spread -- it at least doubles the likelihood; due to integer math the increase is often even greater (0.1%->0.3% = factor 3 for distant cities):
Natural spread of religion solely needs connectivity of the Holy City and the receiving city, it does not require actual trade routes or open borders, it doesn't even need established contact!
In a test game I got natural Hindu spread to the green city in the NW belonging to an AI I hadn't met yet:
Connectivity to Delhi was established by the unknown AI via Sailing network through Hammu's culture and the bridge indicated by the arrows where the borders touch. In order be connected, tiles need to be either revealed or owned by anyone not hostile. So the AI got Delhi connected to its city along a path of unrevealed river tiles that are located within 'friendly' culture. Contact was made later upon construction of the AP.
The lack of control of natural spread is an issue, but it is not solely bound to the existence of the Shrine. Imho the benefit of automatic cost-free spreads into 'difficult' cities sparing us the high expenses of controlled spreads and thus saving us many turns should surely outweigh the risk of too many 'unwanted' spreads.
bcool
Deity
The shrine is a difficult call. I think it might depend on how fast we can get the 2 great scientists and 2 great prophets.
mabraham, I assume these times assume we never research code of laws and never switch to caste system.
If we did get 3 great prophets with the Delhi plan (then we would either be able to bulb code of laws and/or philosophy not possible I don't think to accelerate our great scientist most likely. We would only be able to bulb code of laws before I don't think we can bulb code of laws.
Right now a great prophet will bulb meditation (so we must research that), then a great prophet would bulb monotheism (so we must research that), then a great prophet would bulb theology, and then divine right.
We would have to bulb code of laws before we research writing and after we research meditation and monotheism. That would mean our great scientist would bulb philosophy and not machinery. So I'm pretty sure bulbing code of laws is off the table.
If we do either trade for caste system or research/bulb it ourselves we might significantly improve these times.
I think we want to try to encourage the ability to trade for technologies by researching alphabet as soon as we can after the necessary land improvement technologies and oracle technologies. Then whipping out a spy or 2 to make the journey past the 2 Tokus.
I'm okay with building the Kashi, but only if we look at all of our options.
I think building the Hanging Gardens should be seriously considered as well. The Hanging Gardens combined with caste system could help get out more great people in time to help us get optics faster. (I think the Hanging Gardens in deer/gold would be better than the pyramids as I saw in mabraham's test)
I also don't think the Great Library was part of mabraham's testing, so that is something else to look at as well. (The great library in gold/sheep/corn city might help take back the corn in addition to giving us another place to get a mixed great person)
Random idea for the day:
Oracle alphabet instead of metal casting... Allows earlier building of the spies necessary to make contact with AI beyond Tokus and allows building of research...
Great Prophet bulbing preferences as reference
Great scientist bulbing preferences as reference
mabraham, I assume these times assume we never research code of laws and never switch to caste system.
Right now a great prophet will bulb meditation (so we must research that), then a great prophet would bulb monotheism (so we must research that), then a great prophet would bulb theology, and then divine right.
We would have to bulb code of laws before we research writing and after we research meditation and monotheism. That would mean our great scientist would bulb philosophy and not machinery. So I'm pretty sure bulbing code of laws is off the table.
If we do either trade for caste system or research
I think we want to try to encourage the ability to trade for technologies by researching alphabet as soon as we can after the necessary land improvement technologies and oracle technologies. Then whipping out a spy or 2 to make the journey past the 2 Tokus.
I'm okay with building the Kashi, but only if we look at all of our options.
I think building the Hanging Gardens should be seriously considered as well. The Hanging Gardens combined with caste system could help get out more great people in time to help us get optics faster. (I think the Hanging Gardens in deer/gold would be better than the pyramids as I saw in mabraham's test)
I also don't think the Great Library was part of mabraham's testing, so that is something else to look at as well. (The great library in gold/sheep/corn city might help take back the corn in addition to giving us another place to get a mixed great person)
Random idea for the day:
Oracle alphabet instead of metal casting... Allows earlier building of the spies necessary to make contact with AI beyond Tokus and allows building of research...
Great Prophet bulbing preferences as reference
Spoiler :
Great scientist bulbing preferences as reference
Spoiler :
mabraham
Deity
I agree, and confirm DanF's mechanics observations. In this game, I expect that we will not be concerned by the number of AI votes against us. Each spontaneous spread we get to a distant AI saves us at least one caravel+missionary gift, or galley+trireme+settler+missionary settling mission to gift, or galleon+settler+missionary to gift, or some contrived espionage scenario to get temporary OB. Controlled spread is not a certainty either - the spread religion mission can fail.
Getting a spontaneous spread to a semi-isolated AI will apparently give us contact upon AP building, which might be the fastest way for us to overcome the sandbox in which we may have been trapped. If the far AIs are accessibly by galley routes that AIs will discover, and the far AIs are not Tokugawas, then our game can take off through tech trading in a way that no other mechanic can achieve. Improving that chance by 2-3 every turn for every AI city that lacks a religion sounds like a good deal, together with improving the other AP benefits, saving us internal missionaries, etc.
The main problem I see with building the early Kashi is then ensuring a timely Theol and Optics, without overcommitting to GScientist production at the expense of getting the AP.
Plan A Build the Oracle in the east T62, get T64 Kashi, get T95ish GPro in Delhi, (as in post 738 above) T101 GSci from DeerCow and T110ish GSci from DeerGold. The problem here is that we don't want to bulb Theol until we have bulbed Mach with a GSci because Theol opens Paper that is a preferred over Mach for a GSci bulb. So the Theol bulb is also T101, and that's a bit late to start the AP.
Plan B We could get T62 Oracle in the east, T64 Kashi, T93 GSci from DeerCow, some lateish GPro around T100 from Delhi to try to build the AP after that, and T110ish GSci from DeerGold to finish up. That's also a late AP.
Plan C T62 Oracle in Delhi is no help, because all it does is make the second GPro T84 and the first GSci is still T101, and the GSci is rate limiting.
Plan D Not building the Kashi and saving the GPro permits T93 GSci from DeerCow and bulbing Mach and Theol right then, and T102ish GSci from DeerGold. That's probably OK, but it won't be an early AP. Delhi will take
So I am concerned about the security of the AP if we plan to get Optics with two GScientist bulbs, whether or not we build the Kashi.
Plan E Bulbing Mach with a GEngineer is easy (it's the top preference). Getting the GEngineer would require us to build the Oracle in Delhi, and focus on forge+Hindu+OR for Pyramids in the east city to get 5
base. HG might be a further option. So I envisage T62 Delhi Oracle, T64 Kashi. That's 2+2+1=5 base for Delhi, so T84ish Delhi GPro->Theol for AP in Delhi or DeerGold. We can get the 300 T101 GScientist from DeerCows, which beats out the hypothetical 300 T114 GPro. The trick will be getting the GEngineer by T124 to beat the hypothetical 400 GPro from Delhi.I broke out my spreadsheet to see. If we can found the eastern city T52, get two workers in support T53, get Mono for OR+Hindu by T71 after growing on farms, and get Maths by T81 for three chops, we get the forge T82 after the first chop. Then run an engineer throughout while getting Mids T88, aqueduct T95, HG T107 and GEng T120. Judicious whipping might improve on that a little. Corn capture would improve on that a little by accelerating HG. A southern forest chop or two would help a few turns. Obviously we get Pyramids (Rep for specialist buff) and HG (free population) as side benefits, as well as massive culture pressure on Osaka.
With any GEng plan, we'd be able to get Fishing whenever we wanted. We'd have to avoid CoL and Drama so the Gsci bulbs Optics and not Philo. We get to start the AP around T84, which is earlier than any other plan. The downside is that we'll have no army except from DeerGold until after Delhi finishes the AP T105-9 and DeerCows finishes its GSci. We might have to delay a Delhi AP a little to avoid beating the GEngineer. DeerGold AP would be no problem.
Plan F Spamming workers from DeerGold until T62 when we Oracle MC and then switching DeerGold to the OR+forge+Mids+HG plan for a GEng could be faster still, but it has only five chops available and we will want at least one of those for workers for the Oracle.
Skipping the Kashi might help plan E. Plan G If we get Oracle in Delhi, it will pop a 200
GPro around T89, and we might struggle to get a GSci out to beat it, and Delhi's 300 would hit around T101, which beats the earliest we can get a 300 GEngineer around T113. So we have to get fast Oracle wherever we don't get the GEngineer - so that means Oracle in DeerGold. Now Delhi is not competitive with anything for subsequent great people, but we have to get Oracle in DeerGold, and doing that by T62 might be challenging.Summarising Most plans are unsuitable. Plan D is doable, getting AP around
My feeling is that we're unlikely to get access to the tech trades we might lust after for fast Optics, and so securing Kashi and earlier AP in return for later Optics (plan E) is best.
mabraham
Deity
Correct.
mabraham
Deity
As in my post, the timing of the AP is also linked here. We can't start the AP until we've bulbed Theol after we've bulbed Mach, if we use a GSci for the latter.
That concedes not bulbing Mach or Optics until you've got Philo, so I'm struggling to see CoL for Caste helping. And I love Caste.
That's a good alternative - but it could be huge for us or it could be a white elephant.
Pyramids was a random selection, of course.
Getting the first GSci (to bulb Mach) is rate limiting for the AP (and we need another GPro as well if we get the Kashi). Since DeerCows can get one T93, we're going to struggle to tech out to Lit, build GLib and beat that time. The second GSci for Optics would certainly be easier with GLib, but that second GSci is only rate limiting if we have tech trading opportunities.
Well, we do need Alpha anyway for these GSci bulbing plans. Alpha is 2/3 of the size of MC, however.
mabraham
Deity
Of course there's WastinTime's Plan H of finding bronze, bulbing Theol for ASAP AP and then smashing Toku's face in. Work out the rest later. 
DanF5771
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erm ... sorry to interrupt ... but I'm having troubles spreading Hindu via Missionary gift in a Caravel -- did BUFFY somehow nerf that (using BUFFY for the 1st time)? 
I mean Caravels can enter AI Ocean and Coast tiles without open borders as usual but they cannot enter AI cities with or without Missionaries on board. If I gift the package to the AI on a Coast tile adjacent to a city, they just use the Caravel + the Missionary to explore the map ...
I mean Caravels can enter AI Ocean and Coast tiles without open borders as usual but they cannot enter AI cities with or without Missionaries on board. If I gift the package to the AI on a Coast tile adjacent to a city, they just use the Caravel + the Missionary to explore the map ...
mabraham
Deity
erm ... sorry to interrupt ... but I'm having troubles spreading Hindu via Missionary gift in a Caravel -- did BUFFY somehow nerf that (using BUFFY for the 1st time)?
BUFFY changes zero rules. It's a superset of the BUG (Basic Unaltered Gameplay) mod.
I mean Caravels can enter AI Ocean and Coast tiles without open borders as usual but they cannot enter AI cities with or without Missionaries on board. If I gift the package to the AI on a Coast tile adjacent to a city, they just use the Caravel + the Missionary to explore the map ...
No idea, never done it. Different AIs with different thoughts about religions might react differently when in possession of a weird missionary?
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Sorry, I wasn't clear about natural spread via trade routes. By trade route I meant anywhere that a trade route is possible for any Civ and such trade routes don't need to be currently active either. I believe the article I quoted makes this clear.
DanF, I agree with your arguments. The Holy Shrine may be a good gamble. It will definitely help religion spread. We just need to keep in mind that it is as blunt as a beach ball and may miss one or more remote Cubs.
Sun Tzu Wu
DanF, I agree with your arguments. The Holy Shrine may be a good gamble. It will definitely help religion spread. We just need to keep in mind that it is as blunt as a beach ball and may miss one or more remote Cubs.
Sun Tzu Wu
DanF5771
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^@ Sun Tzu Wu:
Yes, that's a great article by VoU. The whole connectivity concept is rather complex and I just wanted to point out that spontaneous spread can happen even without established contact.
Can you help with clarifications / insights how to best go about spreading religion through closed borders with Missionaries aboard Caravels? The Caravels are not allowed to enter cities, that would require open borders. But in my tests the Missionaries just won't disembark and even after selling the whole map to an AI, they will still send the gifted Caravels on exploration missions with the Hindu Missionaries sleeping on deck.
Yes, that's a great article by VoU. The whole connectivity concept is rather complex and I just wanted to point out that spontaneous spread can happen even without established contact.
Can you help with clarifications / insights how to best go about spreading religion through closed borders with Missionaries aboard Caravels? The Caravels are not allowed to enter cities, that would require open borders. But in my tests the Missionaries just won't disembark and even after selling the whole map to an AI, they will still send the gifted Caravels on exploration missions with the Hindu Missionaries sleeping on deck.
mabraham
Deity
The eastern forests will likely be chopped for a fast library in DeerCow. The forest SW of Delhi might go on the Oracle or a worker. That leaves us with only one or two BFC chops. We may not have a forge if we've been building settlers. Also, if we're getting a GEngineer for Machinery, we do not want an AP in Delhi that is fast enough to add enough
to deny our timely GEngineer.So perhaps my AP forecast in Plan D was about 10 turns too late.
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Yes, I can look into the Caravel and Missionary gift dilemma. Maybe other means of Religion spread to distant, unknown Civs too.
Sun Tzu Wu
Sun Tzu Wu
bcool
Deity
Plan I?
Can we Oracle theology instead of Metal Casting?
Then we can use the first great prophet for Kashi, then focus exclusively on Great scientists.
Can we Oracle theology instead of Metal Casting?
Then we can use the first great prophet for Kashi, then focus exclusively on Great scientists.
Manco Capac
Friday,13 June,I Collapse
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Under the lights of automatic spread throughout the world
goodjob: DanF) once a route is formed (those engineered rivers suggest it), I do approve using the GProphet for Kashi. Of course, this is a huge gambit not knowing the actual world, but at least, we might fight the Mahabodhi early. Sure Metal Casting was attractive for earlier caravels (and forges thanks to gems and gold, higher happy cap), but not knowing the actual world and the probabilitic avenue we may choose make this a hard call.
I vote early Kashi though.
We can bulb CoL by avoiding monarchy. Those GP preference lists are terribly misleading.
That being said, if it turns out that we will not be able to make caravel/missionary gifts work, then we should build the Kashi.
I also don't think that Oracling Theology would be possible. We would need priesthood, monothiesm and writing still.
mabraham
Deity
I still don't see the value in GPro bulbing Theol and CoL. Now we have to GSci bulb Philo, Paper and Edu before we can get back to Mach and Optics. Sure, CoL will allow Delhi to run 6 scientists at size 8, and various other cities can run about 4 scientists, but now we need about 6 GScientists after two GProphets.
I think we want the Kashi regardless. It gives us a higher chance to meet distant AIs serendipitously. Spies might do that job, but have to take the right route and not get caught.
Yeah. It was a good thought from bcool, but getting PH, Wheel, Mono and Writing is not going to be possible by T62. Just getting PH, Wheel, Pottery is a squeeze.
bcool
Deity
So delaying Oracle until we can tech Mono and Writing is out of the question? (We could skip Pottery as long as we have animal handling)
Do we have any idea how big a risk delaying the Oracle would be?
I'm not happy with how late the great engineer comes. I'm not sure if mabraham is suggesting building a forge/pyramids and hanging gardens in the same city or not. I'm not suggesting anything new really if he is.
Plan J
Just a modified Plan E
beeline mathematics after finishing writing. Build the Hanging Gardens before the Pyramids (Hanging Gardens requires the same raw hammer commitment as the Pyramids if you include the aqueduct, but you can whip the aqueduct without penalties). The problem is we can't start the aqueduct until we have mathematics. If we focus on growth rather than hammers we might be able to build the Hanging Gardens before the pyramids. The Hanging Gardens would help us build the forge/pyramids since it would give us +1 pop we could either whip off, assign as an engineer, or work a mine. It would also help get a great scientist in another city faster.
I will try a few tests when I get home.
Can we delay the Oracle a turn or 2 and save a forest near Deer/Gold? Those forests would be handy to chop for the forge, aqueduct, Hanging Gardens, and pyramids.
Plan K
Modified Plan E
Go for great engineer bulb of machinery with pyramids and/or hanging gardens.
But just plan to self-tech optics (build cottages instead of farms Or plan for farms and representation empowered scientist specialists, other ways to maximize commerce, perhaps teching currency not just for the trade routes, but also for the ability to sell resources for gold and for tech for gold trades.
Do we have any idea how big a risk delaying the Oracle would be?
I'm not happy with how late the great engineer comes. I'm not sure if mabraham is suggesting building a forge/pyramids and hanging gardens in the same city or not. I'm not suggesting anything new really if he is.
Plan J
Just a modified Plan E
beeline mathematics after finishing writing. Build the Hanging Gardens before the Pyramids (Hanging Gardens requires the same raw hammer commitment as the Pyramids if you include the aqueduct, but you can whip the aqueduct without penalties). The problem is we can't start the aqueduct until we have mathematics. If we focus on growth rather than hammers we might be able to build the Hanging Gardens before the pyramids. The Hanging Gardens would help us build the forge/pyramids since it would give us +1 pop we could either whip off, assign as an engineer, or work a mine. It would also help get a great scientist in another city faster.
I will try a few tests when I get home.
Can we delay the Oracle a turn or 2 and save a forest near Deer/Gold? Those forests would be handy to chop for the forge, aqueduct, Hanging Gardens, and pyramids.
Plan K
Modified Plan E
Go for great engineer bulb of machinery with pyramids and/or hanging gardens.
But just plan to self-tech optics (build cottages instead of farms Or plan for farms and representation empowered scientist specialists, other ways to maximize commerce, perhaps teching currency not just for the trade routes, but also for the ability to sell resources for gold and for tech for gold trades.
bcool
Deity
How early does the AP go?
Is plan A really that bad? a T101 start of the AP with Organized Religion, a forge and at least 2 forest chops? We can probably finish the AP in 15 turns.
Successive whip overflows could give us about 55 OF hammers, 2 chops for 60 hammers * 1.5 = 172.5 +12*1.5 per turn for 15 turns?
Each forest we save cuts about 3 turns off of that.
Can we save the forests for the AP and still get the great scientists in Deer/Cows? Perhaps slow down the Oracle by a turn or so to save a forest for the library in Deer/Cows.
Modified Plan B
Or can we run 3 priest specialists with the Kashi to time the great prophet closer to the great scientist from DeerCows? With a temple Delhi could run 4 priest specialists and Kashi gives 1 great person point too, so that is 15 raw *2. We could get the great prophet from Delhi about 3-4 turns after the great scientist from DeerCow on T93. So the Great Prophet could come T97 perhaps.
Is plan A really that bad? a T101 start of the AP with Organized Religion, a forge and at least 2 forest chops? We can probably finish the AP in 15 turns.
Successive whip overflows could give us about 55 OF hammers, 2 chops for 60 hammers * 1.5 = 172.5 +12*1.5 per turn for 15 turns?
Each forest we save cuts about 3 turns off of that.
Can we save the forests for the AP and still get the great scientists in Deer/Cows? Perhaps slow down the Oracle by a turn or so to save a forest for the library in Deer/Cows.
Modified Plan B
Or can we run 3 priest specialists with the Kashi to time the great prophet closer to the great scientist from DeerCows? With a temple Delhi could run 4 priest specialists and Kashi gives 1 great person point too, so that is 15 raw
*2. We could get the great prophet from Delhi about 3-4 turns after the great scientist from DeerCow on T93. So the Great Prophet could come T97 perhaps.
