- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
I will try to play these 5 turns about 24 hours from this post.
Updated PPP looks fine.
Sun Tzu Wu
I will try to play these 5 turns about 24 hours from this post.
I agree that a Shrine is not optimal in a regular game or even a HOF game with selected AI opponents where you try to get the earliest AP victory date. In these games taking the 'controlled' route via perfectly timed Missionary spread through uncomplicated open borders is certainly better. But in this SGOTM the religious and diplomatic situation is very different, turning the Shrine in my view into a very useful tool.Sun Tzu Wu said:I'm aginst it for two reasons, it doesn't reliably improve natural spread and there is no control over which cities it spreads to.
With suitable focus on building the appropriate libraries:
Two GScientists out of DeerCow could happen T93 T118
Could get one in DeerCow and one in DeerGold T93 T102ish
Could get one in DeerCow and one in PigGems T93 T110
We do have the option of a 45% GScientist T83 from Delhi, then T101 GScientist from DeerCow then T108 64% GScientist. If we get the early GPro, then that's in good time to bulb Theol and start AP. If we get the early GSci then whether that's good depends on whether we get tech trades in the real game. If we were to get two GPro (0.55*0.36=0.198) then we're in some trouble - the next certain GSci from anywhere is around T140.
If we took the DeerCow-DeerGold option then we'd probably be able to manage a GPro from Delhi T115ish, but that's rather late for us to secure Theol for the AP.
Anyway, when I got to the point where I could judge those GScientist dates, I played on the Delhi plan.
I agree that a Shrine is not optimal in a regular game or even a HOF game with selected AI opponents where you try to get the earliest AP victory date. In these games taking the 'controlled' route via perfectly timed Missionary spread through uncomplicated open borders is certainly better. But in this SGOTM the religious and diplomatic situation is very different, turning the Shrine in my view into a very useful tool.
The Kashi does increase the chances of natural Hindu spread -- it at least doubles the likelihood; due to integer math the increase is often even greater (0.1%->0.3% = factor 3 for distant cities):
View attachment 314946
Natural spread of religion solely needs connectivity of the Holy City and the receiving city, it does not require actual trade routes or open borders, it doesn't even need established contact!
In a test game I got natural Hindu spread to the green city in the NW belonging to an AI I hadn't met yet:
View attachment 314947
Connectivity to Delhi was established by the unknown AI via Sailing network through Hammu's culture and the bridge indicated by the arrows where the borders touch. In order be connected, tiles need to be either revealed or owned by anyone not hostile. So the AI got Delhi connected to its city along a path of unrevealed river tiles that are located within 'friendly' culture. Contact was made later upon construction of the AP.
The lack of control of natural spread is an issue, but it is not solely bound to the existence of the Shrine. Imho the benefit of automatic cost-free spreads into 'difficult' cities sparing us the high expenses of controlled spreads and thus saving us many turns should surely outweigh the risk of too many 'unwanted' spreads.
mabraham, I assume these times assume we never research code of laws and never switch to caste system.
The shrine is a difficult call. I think it might depend on how fast we can get the 2 great scientists and 2 great prophets.
mabraham, I assume these times assume we never research code of laws and never switch to caste system.
If we did get 3 great prophets with the Delhi plan (then we wouldI don't think we can bulb code of laws.either beable to bulb code of lawsand/or philosophy not possible I don't thinkto accelerate our great scientist most likely. We would only be able to bulb code of laws before
Right now a great prophet will bulb meditation (so we must research that), then a great prophet would bulb monotheism (so we must research that), then a great prophet would bulb theology, and then divine right.
We would have to bulb code of laws before we research writing and after we research meditation and monotheism. That would mean our great scientist would bulb philosophy and not machinery. So I'm pretty sure bulbing code of laws is off the table.
If we do either trade for caste system or research/bulbit ourselves we might significantly improve these times.
I think we want to try to encourage the ability to trade for technologies by researching alphabet as soon as we can after the necessary land improvement technologies and oracle technologies. Then whipping out a spy or 2 to make the journey past the 2 Tokus.
I'm okay with building the Kashi, but only if we look at all of our options.
I think building the Hanging Gardens should be seriously considered as well. The Hanging Gardens combined with caste system could help get out more great people in time to help us get optics faster. (I think the Hanging Gardens in deer/gold would be better than the pyramids as I saw in mabraham's test)
I also don't think the Great Library was part of mabraham's testing, so that is something else to look at as well. (The great library in gold/sheep/corn city might help take back the corn in addition to giving us another place to get a mixed great person)
Random idea for the day:
Oracle alphabet instead of metal casting... Allows earlier building of the spies necessary to make contact with AI beyond Tokus and allows building of research...
erm ... sorry to interrupt ... but I'm having troubles spreading Hindu via Missionary gift in a Caravel -- did BUFFY somehow nerf that (using BUFFY for the 1st time)?
I mean Caravels can enter AI Ocean and Coast tiles without open borders as usual but they cannot enter AI cities with or without Missionaries on board. If I gift the package to the AI on a Coast tile adjacent to a city, they just use the Caravel + the Missionary to explore the map ...
Math powered chops and stacked whip-overflow from something like Temple and/or Monastery all pushed through Forge + OR should enable us to finish AP in Delhi significantly earlier (<10 turns), no?mabraham said:Delhi will take 20-25 turns to build the AP.
Math powered chops and stacked whip-overflow from something like Temple and/or Monastery all pushed through Forge + OR should enable us to finish AP in Delhi significantly earlier (<10 turns), no?
Plan I?
Can we Oracle theology instead of Metal Casting?
Then we can use the first great prophet for Kashi, then focus exclusively on Great scientists.
If we did get 3 great prophets with the Delhi plan (then we wouldI don't think we can bulb code of laws.either beable to bulb code of lawsand/or philosophy not possible I don't thinkto accelerate our great scientist most likely. We would only be able to bulb code of laws before
Right now a great prophet will bulb meditation (so we must research that), then a great prophet would bulb monotheism (so we must research that), then a great prophet would bulb theology, and then divine right.
We would have to bulb code of laws before we research writing and after we research meditation and monotheism. That would mean our great scientist would bulb philosophy and not machinery. So I'm pretty sure bulbing code of laws is off the table.
We should consider bulbing with both GPriests instead of building the Holy Temple. If we avoid monarchy (leads to Divine Right bulb) and have meditation, we can bulb both Theology and CoL. I would recommend bulbing CoL only after Confucionism has been founded elsewhere, in hopes of that AI getting out of Buddhism.
We can bulb CoL by avoiding monarchy. Those GP preference lists are terribly misleading.
That being said, if it turns out that we will not be able to make caravel/missionary gifts work, then we should build the Kashi.
I also don't think that Oracling Theology would be possible. We would need priesthood, monothiesm and writing still.