SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

[LowtherCastle]

It'd be easy to say our empire by size and infra was an overkill, but we did gain a lot of turns against Kaku regardless of our crappy capital. Optimization is a beast.

You absolutely did and I fully intend to figure out how you guys did that, because there's a treasure trove of knowledge there. When I talk about a T170 Sushi, it involves deeply borrowing from your GLH(REX) strategy, if I can figure it out.

One I can think we did wrong of is limited use of bulbing. Active bulbing to Medicine, with a bit smaller empire than ours and larger than yours would probably be better. We (PD) really didn't focus on GPP.

Your strategy wasn't conducive to a lot of early GPs, I don't think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Speaking of which, that may be the most important reason why the Pyramids were useful. Synergy with bulbing to Biology, gives a super early Sushi. If I'm not mistaken, Duckweed has admitted in the past that he doesn't use bulbing too much. He even downplayed the walue of the 3 gpps in his 6b+3gps versus 2f2c=4h2c comparison.

Murky Water's early victory in SG10 was all about bulbing.

That's why the espionage culture trick was so crucial, that is, relaxing the 2LC constraint--if you know you don't need Great Artists, then you just beeline Sushi and go to town.

It wasn't as crucial as you think it was. We'd win without it. We didn't believe in kossin enough and have gone spy culture last moment possible.

Right, Duckweed already explained that it wasn't so crucial for you. What I mean is that it would have freed us. You can't imagine how much the 2LC criterion burdened our thought process the entire game. At least half of our decisions and most of the bad ones were related to that. I could probably list 10 such decisions that slowed us down 1 or more turns each, going right down to the end of the game. It was like not knowing you could bulb a tech.


.

 

[kossin]

So we crank it up to immortal next game

Bad idea imo. Look at previous map: 2 retirements

It wasn't Immortal, but the imposed slow start and accelerated AI start (+Toku is a nasty neighbor) made it quite harder than regular Emperor.

Emperor is a nice balance - especially if new teams are formed up.

or just ban these 2 wonders to save these debates. Is it possible to cheng beakers required for GLH to 500 for the player?

Imposing certain handicaps to the players is interesting.

Asking for months of optimization but then taking away the better tools is not.

~~~

Looking forward to more analysis

 

[Gumbolt]

Well you have to account for the fact the Toku map was designed to make Ap victory difficult. Once you got past the diplomacy and built the AP it was just a case of accessing the final distant Ai by sea albeit some war was needed. The map was tough for some as they wrote off the AP win and tried domination which the map was clearly not designed for.

Immortal can be made to work. It requires less removal of resources to even out the game. For instance the map maker could leave all resources such as copper/horse and iron available. Giving options compared to mids/GLH/Oracle starts. It only takes 1-2 gems to make an immortal start emperor level tech wise. Worker stealing also becomes more riskier.

I suspect most of the teams have at least 1-2 strong immortal/deity players. Downside of emperor games is 99% of teams seem to always manage to build the Oracle. The rest will no doubt try for one of mids/GLH. Least on immortal teams will have to be more focused as they ma not be guaranteed these wonders.

Last game worked well due to some handicaps. You could limit number of early wonders? You could impose a restriction of GP generations. Players must try and produce a engineer great person first that must be settled in your capital? All great people must be settled in your capital? You cannot bulb techs?

Seems to me a change in direction would be nice. Leave a strong Ai near the end that must be destroyed.

An always war map might be interesting. Overall we need something fun and fresh.

 

[bcool]

Perhaps we can start as a backward civilization and all the AI have advanced starts. Probably best to put the AI on another continent so we don't get killed early. That would throw most of the common early strategies out the window. Probably no GLH, no pyramids, no early worker steals, no easy military conquests, no early tech trading.

 

[vranasm]

Perhaps we can start as a backward civilization and all the AI have advanced starts. Probably best to put the AI on another continent so we don't get killed early. That would throw most of the common early strategies out the window. Probably no GLH, no pyramids, no early worker steals, no easy military conquests, no early tech trading.

reminds me of BOTM 61 Ice Queen map...

 

[bcool]

Yes well, I would make all the AI advanced so you don't just make 1 wonder happy AI.

 

[LowtherCastle]

T19 Comparisons -- Unpacking the differences

F2 100% research

Spoiler :

F2 0% research

Spoiler :

F9 Statistics

Spoiler :

       Kak PD
       --- ---
pop    190 283
wkg    164 219
spec     5  22
city    27  38
salon   11  22
NP      12   0

resist  21  42

wrkrs   19  30
Imprv  288 168

cities  29  44
resist   2   6

As WastinTime was saying, it appears the biggest difference is earlier, more aggressive warring by PD, plus attacking Hammy earlier.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

In case anyone on the team is not aware that the ...

SGOTM-17 signup thread is up.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[LowtherCastle]

Thanks for letting me join you for SG16 belatedly, folks. I had a great time and learned a lot from you all. I've decided to get back with my old friends from OSS for SG17.

Maybe we'll play together some time in the future. Until then, I'd like to wish you all the best!

 

[bcool]

Sorry to see you go LowtherCastle.

Welcome to sossos!

I was hoping for more of a break between games honestly. I might not be fully available for this one. I can't pass up the opportunity though.

I suspect but I'm not sure that a classical isolated start is in our future. I just played one out to get the feel of it. Of course I could be wrong. If it isn't an isolated start I think it could be fast. If it is an isolated start then we might actually see "modern" warfare.

 

[soundjata]

And how in details would you deal with an isolated start ?

 

[LowtherCastle]

And how in details would you deal with an isolated start ?

Go for a cultural victory, of course. What else?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I agree that the map maker has probably made sure this isn't an early rush sprint.

However, there are many ways to do this ranging from a completely isolated start to a semi-isolated to all Civs on the same land mass, except one. One or more Civs may be isolated from us via mountains and/or ice.

However, we may still need to be prepared for an early rush sprint to quickly build a research base to get us to whatever level of technology is needed for a Conquest Victory.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Welcome sossos to Team 革命家 (kakumeika)!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[sossos]

Welcome sossos to Team 革命家 (kakumeika)!

Sun Tzu Wu

Thank you STW and bcool. I've learned a lot in the last game from Ducks, and I hope I can learn more from revolutionists this time.

 

[Manco Capac]

I also welcome you sossos. Oh wait, I already did.

 

[shulec]

Can someone please enlighten me?

Who came up with "Kakumeika"?
What does it mean?
How does it represent us?
Is it too late to ask?

 

[Manco Capac]

Can someone please enlighten me?

Who came up with "Kakumeika"?
What does it mean?
How does it represent us?
Is it too late to ask?

Bcool. He said this when he enrolled me.
Revolution a.k.a. we're gonna cause turmoil amongst SGOTM teams
dunno
yes, you're fired.

 

[shulec]

Bcool. He said this when he enrolled me.
Revolution a.k.a. we're gonna cause turmoil amongst SGOTM teams
dunno
yes, you're fired.

Oh yeah, that sounds vaguely familiar. Old age!

Can I still get an unemployment check if I lurk elsewhere then??

 

[Manco Capac]

Oh yeah, that sounds vaguely familiar. Old age!

Can I still get an unemployment check if I lurk elsewhere then??