SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika
- Thread starter AlanH
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Here is your official data (everything checks out):
Objectives acheived: 10
Victory: Diplomatic & Domination t244/1670AD
Score: 179841
Congratulations on a fine game!
Objectives acheived: 10
Victory: Diplomatic & Domination t244/1670AD
Score: 179841
Congratulations on a fine game!
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Gumbolt,
Thanks for the kind words.
Sun Tzu Wu
Thanks for the kind words.
Sun Tzu Wu
bcool
Deity
Thanks to everyone on the team for all the effort and energy you put into the game. I know it was difficult this time around for us to reach consensus. The complexity of the game made everything more interesting, difficult and contentious.
Big lesson for me at least is a play thru to the end of the game would have helped. I think it helps everyone get a better sense of the strategies and possible ideas to play through the game. I think playing through would have helped me realize some of the possibilities and challenges of the game and given us a better sense of how the research explodes and how much we have to focus on culture.
It would be ideal if everyone on the team plays through a game just to get everyone the experience and opportunity to catch ideas along the way. Like using espionage for culture. Like some of the other culture corporations. Like colonies. Like UN vs AP. Early UN might have been good too instead of the AP. An extra trade route per city is better than the hammer bonuses of the AP. We didn't really utilize the AP very well this time. Given some experience to guide us through the tech path, when to let the AI help us with tech and when not too.
In several sgotms a play thru really helps. Like discovering the AI will not clean all their fallout and we can't do it for them. A week to have everyone play through the game would be a nice addition to any future game.
Big lesson for me at least is a play thru to the end of the game would have helped. I think it helps everyone get a better sense of the strategies and possible ideas to play through the game. I think playing through would have helped me realize some of the possibilities and challenges of the game and given us a better sense of how the research explodes and how much we have to focus on culture.
It would be ideal if everyone on the team plays through a game just to get everyone the experience and opportunity to catch ideas along the way. Like using espionage for culture. Like some of the other culture corporations. Like colonies. Like UN vs AP. Early UN might have been good too instead of the AP. An extra trade route per city is better than the hammer bonuses of the AP. We didn't really utilize the AP very well this time. Given some experience to guide us through the tech path, when to let the AI help us with tech and when not too.
In several sgotms a play thru really helps. Like discovering the AI will not clean all their fallout and we can't do it for them. A week to have everyone play through the game would be a nice addition to any future game.
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I agree with everything bcool said above!
On a team level, we could "think outside the box" better. Whenever anyone makes a suggestion that on the surface seems irrelevant or useless, we might reflect on it a bit, before we discard it. For example, when a team member suggested using the Spread Culture espionage mission, rather than dismiss the idea, someone could have asked how can we utilize it on our Legendary cities? That may have lead us to using the same technique to increasing Culture that Plastic Ducks actually did use. Also, our Techology path was more or less a blind beeline to Future Technology. We should have spent more time on this and realized that after Medicine, Commumism for The Kremlin was the next best technology and then Railroad for Mining Inc. Also, Mass Media was a good diversion too, but we could have planned for it better.
All the above and more will come to a team easier when every player has played the test game to its conclusion at least once.
I also believe that every member will have a much better understnding of what needs to be accomblished in their turn set having done something similar in the test game at least once.
One procedural item. I could be wrong, but it seems that some team members are communicating outside the team thread. See the first post of our team thread regarding this activity. The way that it hurts the team is when information gets exchanged outside the thread and not all team members see it, especially the player up. When using these other channels we may forget to also post key information on the thread. I believe there may have been things the player up was expected to do that was communicated via these outside channels, but never made it to the team thread. These are often very minor things, but could affect the final team ranking.
Sun Tzu Wu
On a team level, we could "think outside the box" better. Whenever anyone makes a suggestion that on the surface seems irrelevant or useless, we might reflect on it a bit, before we discard it. For example, when a team member suggested using the Spread Culture espionage mission, rather than dismiss the idea, someone could have asked how can we utilize it on our Legendary cities? That may have lead us to using the same technique to increasing Culture that Plastic Ducks actually did use. Also, our Techology path was more or less a blind beeline to Future Technology. We should have spent more time on this and realized that after Medicine, Commumism for The Kremlin was the next best technology and then Railroad for Mining Inc. Also, Mass Media was a good diversion too, but we could have planned for it better.
All the above and more will come to a team easier when every player has played the test game to its conclusion at least once.
I also believe that every member will have a much better understnding of what needs to be accomblished in their turn set having done something similar in the test game at least once.
One procedural item. I could be wrong, but it seems that some team members are communicating outside the team thread. See the first post of our team thread regarding this activity. The way that it hurts the team is when information gets exchanged outside the thread and not all team members see it, especially the player up. When using these other channels we may forget to also post key information on the thread. I believe there may have been things the player up was expected to do that was communicated via these outside channels, but never made it to the team thread. These are often very minor things, but could affect the final team ranking.
Sun Tzu Wu
@LHC
Quite good analysis. However, the major problem of your grand strategy in this game was building mids. Not only the cost of hammers which can be used for more early settlers, most importantly, your next step -- switching to Representation, which was the real setback which cost you a much smaller empire since you did not whip hard enough. The biggest snowball action in this game was how well you expand while keeping your research afloat, not only peacefully, but also through the war. Our military cities accumulated ~100 anger to serve the war. Although you were only 1 turn slower at Sushi and 4 turn slower at RR, your available corporation resources were only half of ours at that time, this plus less populations explains the faster pace of our closing.
When people are couting the 6B + 3GPPs from the representation yield, they usually ignore the 2F2C=4H2C yield from the worst water tile (which is no worse than the 6B output already) could yield and more importantly, the gain from those hammers used to producing units to conquer more and the yield from earlier infrastructures.
Honestly, I enjoy more on reading than trying to argue. However, disagreement is unavoidable in SGOTMs. There's no problem as long as those decisions are your team decision. Most of us are here to play for fun and to learn.
BTW, congratulations for a great teamwork.
Quite good analysis. However, the major problem of your grand strategy in this game was building mids. Not only the cost of hammers which can be used for more early settlers, most importantly, your next step -- switching to Representation, which was the real setback which cost you a much smaller empire since you did not whip hard enough. The biggest snowball action in this game was how well you expand while keeping your research afloat, not only peacefully, but also through the war. Our military cities accumulated ~100 anger to serve the war. Although you were only 1 turn slower at Sushi and 4 turn slower at RR, your available corporation resources were only half of ours at that time, this plus less populations explains the faster pace of our closing.
When people are couting the 6B + 3GPPs from the representation yield, they usually ignore the 2F2C=4H2C yield from the worst water tile (which is no worse than the 6B output already) could yield and more importantly, the gain from those hammers used to producing units to conquer more and the yield from earlier infrastructures.
Honestly, I enjoy more on reading than trying to argue. However, disagreement is unavoidable in SGOTMs. There's no problem as long as those decisions are your team decision. Most of us are here to play for fun and to learn.
BTW, congratulations for a great teamwork.
I find it hard to come to a conclusion about mids so easily. Clearly we needed a larger empire sooner since you blew past us around T200 (sushi). However, I find it hard to believe that going way back to the mids/representation switch can be blamed for our smaller empire. During the time from mids -> sushi, there certainly is a way to expand properly, but we didn't do as well as we should have. Not to mention our somewhat lazy spread of execs. If we had gotten sushi 10 turns sooner (which I feel we could have.) Maybe the mids would not be so easily criticized. Anyway, thx for the analysis. I find it valuable info, and I will have to consider it more closely.
It sounds like the criticism is mainly Representation...which I take to mean failure to use Hereditary rule to manage happiness, which, in turn, allows more whips. I thought we whipped almost constantly...and getting 3 happy from Representation isn't so bad. We didn't need hardly any military police. That's a lot less maintenance early in the game. If we had taken the war more seriously (get to dom limit ~25 turns faster), we could have been closer to gold and the mids wouldn't be getting beat up on.
So the most logical conclusion to me is : get to Domination limit ASAP (once initial economy can support the expansion.)
It sounds like the criticism is mainly Representation...which I take to mean failure to use Hereditary rule to manage happiness, which, in turn, allows more whips. I thought we whipped almost constantly...and getting 3 happy from Representation isn't so bad. We didn't need hardly any military police. That's a lot less maintenance early in the game. If we had taken the war more seriously (get to dom limit ~25 turns faster), we could have been closer to gold and the mids wouldn't be getting beat up on.
So the most logical conclusion to me is : get to Domination limit ASAP (once initial economy can support the expansion.)
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I disagree with Duckweed's hypothesis that The Pyramids was the wrong decision. This game required balance between two major conflicting goals, Future Tech 1 and two Legendary cities plus several minor strategic goals to aid in meeting these ASAP via the chosen Grand Strategy. We wanted Great Wonders for both Base Culture for our Legendary Cities and Great Engineer GPPs in Paris to help increase the odds of popping a Great Engineer for Mining Inc. Surely, that is adequate reason to build The Pyramids with access to Stone. I find your arguments perhaps more convincing for a game with the single objective of Winning ASAP, but even then it depends on the game specifics, the Land and Opponents, etc. I will conceed that we probably didn't leverage Representation as well as we could have from the time The Pyramids was built until Constitution was acquired. We should have spammed Creative Libraries in every city we had as soon as we acquired Writing and used them to the max with two Representation Scientists each.
Congratulations on your win Plastic Ducks!
Sun Tzu Wu
Congratulations on your win Plastic Ducks!
Sun Tzu Wu
Mitchum
Deity
Nice work, guys. Once I realized that we had no chance at the gold (which happened a little bit before T0), I was pulling for you guys to put in a strong showing, which you did. I'm interested to read what led you to settle where you did.
Can you condense your game into 100 words or less? Or do I have to read all 5,449 posts.
Once I realized that we had no chance at the gold (which happened a little bit before T0), I was pulling for you guys to put in a strong showing, which you did. I'm interested to read what led you to settle where you did.Can you condense your game into 100 words or less? Or do I have to read all 5,449 posts.
It's fun to compare our game with the ducks. You might be very surprised to learn that we were still ahead in tech T210 AND we still had more bpt (edit: but essentially equal). However, we only spread sushi to 11 cities while the ducks had 22 already. So something started going wrong just after T200. In hindsight, we should have been able to pull off our T239 religious finish. I still need to look beyond T210 for more reasons they finished so quickly from there.
A little more peaceful expansion (instead of chasing stone/marble around) would be one thing to change, but not a major problem.
Our war effort was about 10 turns behind for a long time, but then stretched to 20+ turns. This is where we needed to improve. We had plenty of happiness to whip or draft more units. Reaching the Dom limit by T200 would be a good goal.
I find no evidence that the 'mids had anything but a positive effect. We didn't have anger issues and our army wasn't much smaller than the ducks (if you don't count their 50+ warrior police!) I would definitely build mids again even with no stone (IND leader) and use them a bit better to get Sushi T190.
Update: T225
We have the same sushi and just 4 less mining resources.
Sushi spread is 10 cities behind, and Mining is about 20 cities behind.
PD has almost twice our bpt now! We were even just 15 turns ago. It seems nothing is more important than spreading corps. I'm thinking (some) 0 hammer exec whips would have been wise.
A little more peaceful expansion (instead of chasing stone/marble around) would be one thing to change, but not a major problem.
Our war effort was about 10 turns behind for a long time, but then stretched to 20+ turns. This is where we needed to improve. We had plenty of happiness to whip or draft more units. Reaching the Dom limit by T200 would be a good goal.
I find no evidence that the 'mids had anything but a positive effect. We didn't have anger issues and our army wasn't much smaller than the ducks (if you don't count their 50+ warrior police!) I would definitely build mids again even with no stone (IND leader) and use them a bit better to get Sushi T190.
Update: T225
We have the same sushi and just 4 less mining resources.
Sushi spread is 10 cities behind, and Mining is about 20 cities behind.
PD has almost twice our bpt now! We were even just 15 turns ago. It seems nothing is more important than spreading corps. I'm thinking (some) 0 hammer exec whips would have been wise.
bpt are pretty much equal as of T210; Kakumeika is building wealth in several cities, if you remove those, the bpt is about the same.
As of T211, Wall Street is completed and PD's bpt would be slightly higher.
The big difference, imho, is the potential research: 424 population vs 294 population advantage. Basically, the development is about ~10 turns ahead which is reflected on the graphs in terms of population, culture and GNP. Hammers and food appear to be slightly above the 10 turns difference, but that's due mainly to faster spread of Sushi/Mining.
Getting to Sushi earlier is probably the big game breaker - I looked a bit in bcool's 16xxAD SSV on Emperor where Sushi comes in ~1000AD iIrc. Of course, that's a very favorable map compared to this one but nonetheless, it shows the possibility of finishing pre-1600AD with a better balance between research (Kakumeika) and food/hammers (PD).
As of T211, Wall Street is completed and PD's bpt would be slightly higher.
The big difference, imho, is the potential research: 424 population vs 294 population advantage. Basically, the development is about ~10 turns ahead which is reflected on the graphs in terms of population, culture and GNP. Hammers and food appear to be slightly above the 10 turns difference, but that's due mainly to faster spread of Sushi/Mining.
Getting to Sushi earlier is probably the big game breaker - I looked a bit in bcool's 16xxAD SSV on Emperor where Sushi comes in ~1000AD iIrc. Of course, that's a very favorable map compared to this one but nonetheless, it shows the possibility of finishing pre-1600AD with a better balance between research (Kakumeika) and food/hammers (PD).
LowtherCastle
Deity
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Compare the 325BC, T102 saves. We're Alphabet+CoL+Civil Service clear of PD. Unfreakingbelievable. We have 4 cities and the Pyramids and they have 8 going on 10 cities. Their research pace has ground to a virtual halt because of massive maintenance costs.
Our biggest mistake, by a million miles, imo, was to not settle CPF instead of Horse Chitty.* That was the settler pump. Always, but ALWAYS build a settler pump as soon as possible. Brain damage. These things are not complicated folks. This has been true from the beginning of Civilization.
Aside from that, the 2LC condition truly screwed our minds. We were busy building COnfucian buildings for the double culture, wonders for their culture, etc. And Theology. Bugger me blue, baby. I take full blame for that insanity.
We were so far ahead of PD at that point that it's truly pathetic. They still hadn't even scoped out Brennus' land, had no foreign trade routes with anyone. +7gpt at 0% slider.
+1 plusmods with both Brennus and Ramesses. 0 beakers into Alpha.
PD also had some good fortune in that the barbs settled three very nice cities for them, two quite early that more or less eliminated further barb spawning on their home landmass. We had to deal with barb archers and axemen. But that's trivial compared to our blundering failure to build a settler pump.
CIV has certain basic basics:
Don't get me wrong, though. Not to take anything away from the PD. To go from T102 at 7gpt 0% research to T196 Sushi is phenomenal and how they did that is to be studied and imitated until all required lessons are learned.
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*We didn't even need that city for access to the horses after getting COnfucianism in Orleans.
Our biggest mistake, by a million miles, imo, was to not settle CPF instead of Horse Chitty.* That was the settler pump. Always, but ALWAYS build a settler pump as soon as possible. Brain damage. These things are not complicated folks. This has been true from the beginning of Civilization.
Aside from that, the 2LC condition truly screwed our minds. We were busy building COnfucian buildings for the double culture, wonders for their culture, etc. And Theology. Bugger me blue, baby. I take full blame for that insanity.
We were so far ahead of PD at that point that it's truly pathetic. They still hadn't even scoped out Brennus' land, had no foreign trade routes with anyone. +7gpt at 0% slider.
+1 plusmods with both Brennus and Ramesses. 0 beakers into Alpha.PD also had some good fortune in that the barbs settled three very nice cities for them, two quite early that more or less eliminated further barb spawning on their home landmass. We had to deal with barb archers and axemen. But that's trivial compared to our blundering failure to build a settler pump.
CIV has certain basic basics:
1. Food is King (=settler+workers)
2. Knowledge is Power (=research+exploration)
Only fools and infants ignore these basics.2. Knowledge is Power (=research+exploration)
Don't get me wrong, though. Not to take anything away from the PD. To go from T102 at 7gpt 0% research to T196 Sushi is phenomenal and how they did that is to be studied and imitated until all required lessons are learned.
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*We didn't even need that city for access to the horses after getting COnfucianism in Orleans.
LtC, you're being a little to hard on yourself and us, and I'm not sure you're drawing logical conclusions. I disagree that a settler pump city was that big a deal. We could have easily pumped out settlers anyway, but chose not to. It's not that one silly city. It was the choice to not expand. We were only ~5 cities behind PD at any one time. We could have closed that gap if we wanted to. AND, being ~5 cities behind is nothing as long as you get to corporations with a full empire. We were not fully expanded in time, but that has little to do with HorseCity.
One advantage to dragging your butt on research is that you get more free tech from trading the AI. They probably made up some ground with that. And then our detour to Theology was a waste of our lead. Detours from the beeline are almost always a mistake.
However, like I said in my review. We didn't really do much wrong way back in the "settler pump" part of the game. Our mid/late-game war was slow, and corp exploitation was slow.
One advantage to dragging your butt on research is that you get more free tech from trading the AI. They probably made up some ground with that. And then our detour to Theology was a waste of our lead. Detours from the beeline are almost always a mistake.
However, like I said in my review. We didn't really do much wrong way back in the "settler pump" part of the game. Our mid/late-game war was slow, and corp exploitation was slow.
@WastinTime
It will be more clear if you compare the saves around the time when Sushi was founded in terms of war progress, total populations, infrastructures in cities, available corporation resources, religions and culture in 2 LCs, you will find that you were 5+ turns behind at that time. Plus the advantage you gained from initial capital site (hard to estimate, 3~5 turns effect on final result IMO), which means that we caught up by ~10 turns till T200. Micros and a few more wonders were not strong enough to explain this gap, that why I said your major problem was not whipping hard enough to both peaceful expansion and war expansion.
Let's take a look at the beakers we lose from representation, we popped 2 GPs from Orleans (that's 300 - 150 from wonders / 3 = 50 specialist turns). Then we launched our 1st GA on T160 and producing 2 GPs during this GA (300 + 400 + ~700 from unfinished GPs / 9 (GA+Pac) = 150 turns). Therefore, the total loss from the representation beakers in our games was 200 * 3 * 1.25 = 750 B, compared with the gain from faster expansion supported by HR, the cost of mids + representation made it the major setback in your game. You might gain more beakers in your game, but won't be dramatic different. Many people are emphasizing how important are those early beakers, as you already see, how much beakers you are ahead of us before T100. For a long-lasting game, it's the foundation of the empire which is more important. The way to Sushi was not easy, we produced 15K beakers when starting to rush to Medicine in 8 turns, no matter how hard you leverage it, the representation beakers are only a drop (no more than 1 turn) in the way.
If you read our early post, you can see that kossin's initial thought was to obtain LCs mostly through spy missions and aimed for culture victory. The cost of ~9000EPs + 150 spies was too much in my eyes. Only before the last 20 turns, he realized of partial missions, which cost much less. It probably speeded up our victory by 1~3 turns depend on how we manage the GArtists. We had been planning our 2 LC cities through regular way most of the time and managed to get 5 religions there. Our initial plan was to produce ~9 GAs till T235 to achieve 2 LCs.
@STW
please just ignore my posts or throw them in the garbage bin, I have tried, but the logic of your posts has been always too hard for me.
It will be more clear if you compare the saves around the time when Sushi was founded in terms of war progress, total populations, infrastructures in cities, available corporation resources, religions and culture in 2 LCs, you will find that you were 5+ turns behind at that time. Plus the advantage you gained from initial capital site (hard to estimate, 3~5 turns effect on final result IMO), which means that we caught up by ~10 turns till T200. Micros and a few more wonders were not strong enough to explain this gap, that why I said your major problem was not whipping hard enough to both peaceful expansion and war expansion.
Let's take a look at the beakers we lose from representation, we popped 2 GPs from Orleans (that's 300 - 150 from wonders / 3 = 50 specialist turns). Then we launched our 1st GA on T160 and producing 2 GPs during this GA (300 + 400 + ~700 from unfinished GPs / 9 (GA+Pac) = 150 turns). Therefore, the total loss from the representation beakers in our games was 200 * 3 * 1.25 = 750 B, compared with the gain from faster expansion supported by HR, the cost of mids + representation made it the major setback in your game. You might gain more beakers in your game, but won't be dramatic different. Many people are emphasizing how important are those early beakers, as you already see, how much beakers you are ahead of us before T100. For a long-lasting game, it's the foundation of the empire which is more important. The way to Sushi was not easy, we produced 15K beakers when starting to rush to Medicine in 8 turns, no matter how hard you leverage it, the representation beakers are only a drop (no more than 1 turn) in the way.
If you read our early post, you can see that kossin's initial thought was to obtain LCs mostly through spy missions and aimed for culture victory. The cost of ~9000EPs + 150 spies was too much in my eyes. Only before the last 20 turns, he realized of partial missions, which cost much less. It probably speeded up our victory by 1~3 turns depend on how we manage the GArtists. We had been planning our 2 LC cities through regular way most of the time and managed to get 5 religions there. Our initial plan was to produce ~9 GAs till T235 to achieve 2 LCs.
@STW
please just ignore my posts or throw them in the garbage bin,
I have tried, but the logic of your posts has been always too hard for me.
We totally agree we should have expanded and warred faster.
No doubt our super GAge started too late. We sorta forgot about them. We could have easily started earlier and tacked on another 12 turn GA.
I'm still not convinced that 'mids interfered/caused our empire size problems. Your 750 beaker loss doesn't compare to a properly exploited Representation. I also don't follow your logic that 750 beakers that early in the game will only save/cost you 1 turn in the end.
This is all great analysis. Thx Duckweed! And great game to PD (if I didn't make that clear already)
Just remember, if we hadn't made some of our less-than-optimal choices, or...imagine another team was competing that finished < T230 (easily doable date). We'd all be nit-picking the PD game for mistakes as well. IMO, you over-expanded early. Who knows, with the mids, you might have finished <T230! I think you're doing yourselves a dis-service by not examining your own game as if you had been beaten by several turns. Maybe you already have, you've been done longer than us.
No doubt our super GAge started too late. We sorta forgot about them. We could have easily started earlier and tacked on another 12 turn GA.
I'm still not convinced that 'mids interfered/caused our empire size problems. Your 750 beaker loss doesn't compare to a properly exploited Representation. I also don't follow your logic that 750 beakers that early in the game will only save/cost you 1 turn in the end.
This is all great analysis. Thx Duckweed! And great game to PD (if I didn't make that clear already)
Just remember, if we hadn't made some of our less-than-optimal choices, or...imagine another team was competing that finished < T230 (easily doable date). We'd all be nit-picking the PD game for mistakes as well. IMO, you over-expanded early. Who knows, with the mids, you might have finished <T230! I think you're doing yourselves a dis-service by not examining your own game as if you had been beaten by several turns. Maybe you already have, you've been done longer than us.
50 specialist turns between T100 ~ T160, and 150 specialist turns between T161~172, We could produce 500+ bpt after T160. For 2000+ bpt when pushing to Medicine, those beakers really counted no more than 1 turn. Moreover, although the date of founding corporation is important, how fast you spread them and how much resources you have are equally important. BTW, PR founded Sushi only 1 turn later than yours. If we were more clear about how to use the spy mission from beginning, I'd suggest to go for Mine before Sushi since mine helps the spread.
BTW. I agree that this game could be finished before T230 even with our suboptimal capital site, with your capital site, T225 should be possible. I don't mind that you hold on your thoughts on mids, as I mentioned already, as long as it's your team decision, there's nothing wrong about any choice.
BTW. I agree that this game could be finished before T230 even with our suboptimal capital site, with your capital site, T225 should be possible. I don't mind that you hold on your thoughts on mids, as I mentioned already, as long as it's your team decision, there's nothing wrong about any choice.
Yea, I was thinking about how RR is probably the better 1st target corp too (certainly in a space race style game).
I still disagree with that type of beaker analysis. I subscribe to "turns saved" philosophy. You have to figure in a ton of other things when getting your beakers way earlier. Earlier Bureaucracy, univ, oxford, optics, Astron, war units--musketeers, etc. Getting each and every one of those benefits earlier saves more than just the raw beakers that need to be made up in the late game.
I still disagree with that type of beaker analysis. I subscribe to "turns saved" philosophy. You have to figure in a ton of other things when getting your beakers way earlier. Earlier Bureaucracy, univ, oxford, optics, Astron, war units--musketeers, etc. Getting each and every one of those benefits earlier saves more than just the raw beakers that need to be made up in the late game.
LowtherCastle
Deity
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WastinTime, if you happen to get a chance, I would be interested to see what happens if you just play our save from Medicine onward, ignoring the need fo 2LCs, just see how fast you can get FT1. And of course, no 59pop whipping 3t before we get the Kremlin... I'd try it, but I'm afraid my poor little tablet will smoke and burn.
I think we had the wherewithal to spread Sushi+Mining just as fast as PD did, despite our lower population, because we had DPF and CPF. DPF alone was ready to build 9 execs every 10 turns, as I repeatedly pointed out at the time. I doubt we needed to resort to 0h whips.
Edit: One more thing is that this isn't a space race, so the total beakers needed is much less. All we were looking for was a 1-tech-per-turn rate. No need for 10K bpt.
Edit 2: PD's exec rate was no more than 2 Sushi per turn. BUilding 5 at once should mean no need for 0h whips.
.
I think we had the wherewithal to spread Sushi+Mining just as fast as PD did, despite our lower population, because we had DPF and CPF. DPF alone was ready to build 9 execs every 10 turns, as I repeatedly pointed out at the time. I doubt we needed to resort to 0h whips.
Edit: One more thing is that this isn't a space race, so the total beakers needed is much less. All we were looking for was a 1-tech-per-turn rate. No need for 10K bpt.
Edit 2: PD's exec rate was no more than 2 Sushi per turn. BUilding 5 at once should mean no need for 0h whips.
.
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I have serious doubts that comparing the games will be all that fruitful, since Kakumeika made numerous serious errors, but not necessarily those you claim we made (building The Pyramids was not a mistake).
I don't see how one can get useful data when at least one of the games was far from optimally played.
Sun Tzu Wu
I don't see how one can get useful data when at least one of the games was far from optimally played.
Sun Tzu Wu
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