SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

[LowtherCastle]

Plus the advantage you gained from initial capital site (hard to estimate, 3~5 turns effect on final result IMO), which means that we caught up by ~10 turns till T200.

BTW. I agree that this game could be finished before T230 even with our suboptimal capital site, with your capital site, T225 should be possible.

Methinks you're being gracious.

I'm still analyzing but my initial estimates put our settling location at a 10t advantage or more. I think you guys slaughtered us from T102 forward.

And my hunch is that from our settling location the optimal, no-map knowledge finish date should be closer to T215. But I don't think your strategy alone would have beaten T120 from that spot. I think there's a further optimization that I'm seeking.

 

[WastinTime]

WastinTime, if you happen to get a chance, I would be interested to see what happens if you just play our save from Medicine onward, ignoring the need fo 2LCs, just see how fast you can get FT1.

I'm dying to go back to when we decided to go for Theology and play from there! Or, when we were close to finishing Brennus, what would've happened if we immediately attacked both Hamm and Rams simultaneously, etc.

 

[LowtherCastle]

LtC, you're being a little to hard on yourself and us, and I'm not sure you're drawing logical conclusions. I disagree that a settler pump city was that big a deal. We could have easily pumped out settlers anyway, but chose not to. It's not that one silly city. It was the choice to not expand. We were only ~5 cities behind PD at any one time. We could have closed that gap if we wanted to. AND, being ~5 cities behind is nothing as long as you get to corporations with a full empire. We were not fully expanded in time, but that has little to do with HorseCity.

One advantage to dragging your butt on research is that you get more free tech from trading the AI. They probably made up some ground with that. And then our detour to Theology was a waste of our lead. Detours from the beeline are almost always a mistake.

However, like I said in my review. We didn't really do much wrong way back in the "settler pump" part of the game. Our mid/late-game war was slow, and corp exploitation was slow.

Thanks for the encouragement and moral support.

I understand what you're saying, especially about how we were optimizing our research. I need to be more detailed about my thinking behind my "settler pump" notion. It's way more than just maintenance-exploding settlers. Food is King = settlers + workers. We had far too few workers. We could have had 6 cities on T102 instead of barely 4, and they would have increased our bpt. I'm not talking about REXing like chickens withour heads cut off. I'm talking about accelerating the entire flow of our juggernaut. One exra worker costs at most 1gpt maintenance, but can get the next city settled 1 turn sooner, the next improvement done 1 turn sooner, or 2 turns sooner, then 4 turns sooner. It snowballs, to use Duckweed's metaphor.

We could have settled DrunkPigs far sooner, which was a commerce powerhouse and unit spammer all by itself. And so on. So much more we could have done if we had simply had a third city, independent of Paris and Orleans, free to REX our empire faster.

Fastest finish is a very special animal and I know of nothing that saves turns more than more workers, especially at normal speed, followed closely by more settlers. This is in stark contrast to what both you and Duckweed have suggested at various points. Tachy knows what I'm talking about, which is why he asked about it in Duckweeds SSV strategy thread (I assume). Saving maintenance on workers is false savings. We had tons of beautiful river grassland that was still covered with jungle on T244.

CPF sooner would have given us also a galley and/or wb pump. Or a third library and two sci much sooner. Whatever. Units. It was an infinitely better site than Horse City. As I recall, we chose HC because it was safe and it could immediatley use the improved horse tile. Very short-sighted reasoning imo. We didn't even need chariots, since we already had archery.

I have always found that going to Oracle, GLH and perhaps the Mids leaves one vulnerable to an under-REXed empire. A settler pump, if the site is readily available, is the antidote.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm dying to go back to when we decided to go for Theology and play from there! Or, when we were close to finishing Brennus, what would've happened if we immediately attacked both Hamm and Rams simultaneously, etc.

I konw what you mean. I'd like to start with settling CPF instead of HC. The reason I suggested Medicine is that it's a relatively short exercise and itwould answer a big chunk of what Duckweed is saying, because he's kind of assuming that our empire wasn't big enough to handle the required Sushi flow. If it actually was, then we know that merely accelerating the Sushi date accelerated the finish date, without his massive REX schedule.

For example: Settling all those islands late got us the sushi resources, so if they didn't need additional infrastructure to get FT1, then there was no need to settle them so much sooner.

 

[WastinTime]

I konw what you mean. I'd like to start with settling CPF instead of HC. The reason I suggested Medicine is that it's a relatively short exercise and itwould answer a big chunk of what Duckweed is saying, because he's kind of assuming that our empire wasn't big enough to handle the required Sushi flow. If it actually was, then we know that merely accelerating the Sushi date accelerated the finish date, without his massive REX schedule.

For example: Settling all those islands late got us the sushi resources, so if they didn't need additional infrastructure to get FT1, then there was no need to settle them so much sooner.

I don't think that exercise would shed light on their "REX schedule". I'm pretty sure what we will find is that we can't keep up because we don't have Hamm's cities + others out of revolt and working for us. So this wouldn't determine if their early REX was important or if just getting to the Dom limit earlier works (which is what I expect)

 

[WastinTime]

You're right about CPF.

but not workers , they must be in moderation or they just delay settlers even more (along with everything else like libraries, granaries) It's just important that citizens have a place to work. The mids mean we can always run a specialist if there isn't a tile ready to be worked.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

@STW

please just ignore my posts or throw them in the garbage bin, I have tried, but the logic of your posts has been always too hard for me.

I'm disappointed that you were either unable or unwilling to post a lucid counter argument to the arguments I have made for building The Pyramids in this SGTOM. As I recall, the reasons Kakumeika built The Pyramids were those I recently posted.

That you find the logic in all my posts to be too hard is truly troubling.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

That you find the logic in all my posts to be too hard is truly troubling.

Sun Tzu Wu

I thought he was complimenting you. I think your argument convinced him. (maybe I misunderstood though)

 

[kossin]

How does removing Wealth builds in Kakumeika's and not in Plastic Duck's game make the comparison fair? Building Wealth is a well.known techique for acheiving 100% sustained Research rate that might otherwise be impossible to achieve.

I have serious doubts that comparing the games will be all that fruitful, since Kakumeika made numerous serious errors, but not necessarily those you claim we made (building The Pyramids was not a mistake).

I don't see how one can get useful data when at least one of the games was far from optimally played.

Sun Tzu Wu

Allow me to write out the details which were implied by my statement.

Kakumeika, T210
277 gpt from wealth -- removing them
50% slider: 1327 :beakers: +100 gpt
60% slider: 1504 :beakers: -43 gpt
Using interpolation... stable bpt is 1451

PD, T210
101 gpt from wealth -- removing them
30% slider: 1307 :beakers: +43 gpt
40% slider: 1594 :beakers: -192 gpt
Using interpolation... stable bpt is 1359

As you might see, bpt is pretty much equal by T210. Certainly there's a 7% advantage for Kakumeika but with Wall Street (>137gpt) completing the following turn, the difference is basically none.

In any case, it doesn't matter - as you said, this is no benchmark of the 2 teams by any distance. Cards were already on the table by that time.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I thought he was complimenting you. I think your argument convinced him. (maybe I misunderstood though)

Perhaps you are right. I wasn't sure how to take it. What threw me was ...

I have tried, but the logic of your posts has been always too hard for me.

I can accept winning an argument with Duckweed once, but not always.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Allow me to write out the details which were implied by my statement.

Kakumeika, T210
277 gpt from wealth -- removing them
50% slider: 1327 :beakers: +100 gpt
60% slider: 1504 :beakers: -43 gpt
Using interpolation... stable bpt is 1451

PD, T210
101 gpt from wealth -- removing them
30% slider: 1307 :beakers: +43 gpt
40% slider: 1594 :beakers: -192 gpt
Using interpolation... stable bpt is 1359

As you might see, bpt is pretty much equal by T210. Certainly there's a 7% advantage for Kakumeika but with Wall Street (>137gpt) completing the following turn, the difference is basically none.

In any case, it doesn't matter - as you said, this is no benchmark of the 2 teams by any distance. Cards were already on the table by that time.

Thank you very much kossin! I suspected that you meant to remove all Wealth builds from both teams to compare Bpt at average research slider.

It can also be valid to measure Bpt at maximum Wealth building level too, depending on whether getting to the next Technology or string of them is critical.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[vranasm]

If you will allow some small argument in the Mids x GLH debate from outsider with probably less experience...

As I view it, the Representation civic is best used in rather small empires (the happiness is capped at 5 cities) and usually best used in tall small empires for later break out where you have techs for another happy resources and end going on military spree to acquire them (or trade for them after AI's get calendar etc).

Where as GLH is suited for massive horizontal expansion fueled by settling islands, coast and having a lot of very strong 2C trade routes. Pairing Hereditary civic with horizontal expansion is natural since then you get a lot of happiness for all your empire without natural source.

the breaking point here is if you can get hold on at least 3-4 early game happy resources (mixture of furs, silver, gold, gems, ivory and I probably forgot some) (not calendar resources though). You probably could be better off with Representation since your typical city will be size 7-8 (which is usually plenty, we can calculate maybe a bit with religious +1 eventually too) and some target cities can be size 10-11 (which is usually good target size for capital).

If your land lacks early happy resources you will be lacking in the case of massive horizontal expansion. And I think it is visible from the analysis of T100 where PD's massively rexed to 10 cities while you had to hold back a bit.

Seeing the massive island west from main landmass after settling city 3 motivated me to go for GLH in my test run since I know how strong that thing is with at least couple of island cities.

 

[shakabrade]

How I see it, it is still possible to REX with both Mids and GLH if you do have, as LtC said numerous times, settler pump. However, then you get to the point that you want to leverage your investment in Mids and start running scientists as soon as you built libraries. That, in turn, drastically reduces your whipping potential. With lower cappy hap from REP, you don't even notice how many hammers you lost from running specialists.

Whole philosophy behind earlier beakers is more suited for faster games, or Deity games in which you always want to have that tech edge for faster conquest, bare survival and trade baits. When you are unthreatened, like in this game, everything should be subjected to optimal use of your beakers and hammers. Since game goes a long way, almost all infra pays for itself. So, biggest difference in our two games are hammers and infra. As I have understood, our empire was always meant to explode in corps period. If we didn't focus on infra that much, and have worked coast tiles to the happy cap, our early bpt would've been much better. But in context of going to FT1 and overall beakers, that is just drop in the sea and if this was some kind of differential equation, it would've been ignored. Besides, our constant whipping kept our cities small which reduced maintenance and allowed for further REX. Also, whipping smaller cities is more efficient, better : ratio.

If this was a Deity game, Kakumeika approach would have been much better since you'd be able to leverage your early beakers with tech trades and get to corps much faster. But that wasn't the case.

P.S.
Look at the food per turn and hammers per turn in progress page. We had a huge lead throughout the game. And that extra food was all converted to hammers thanks to HR since we didn't really use stop growth option.

Regarding T215 estimate, that is simply too much without solid trade partners and huge risk. T225 would already be very generous but manageable, somehow.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@Vranasm:

Thanks for your analysis. I agree that the happiness cap is a major factor in HeredRule or the Mids. On ~T200, when PD had about 30 cities, that was worth an extra per garrison, whereas Representation was only worth an extra 10 in 5 garrisoned cities. (The Rep garrison equates to a lost HeredRule .)

1. I don't think there is any debate about GLH or the Mids. It's about GLH and (Mids or not).
2. Kaku built the Mids on ~T96 and researched Constitution on T197 iirc, so Duckweed's Representation question (aside from the 5 * +3) is whether the 334h paid off more in beakers than in 3.34 settlers (or in 334h of attack units, which no one has discussed yet, but might be my preferred choice because of uber-Bibracte and stone).
3. For this scenario, I think you should also factor into your analysis:

• half-priced libraries, potentially providing 2 scientists in lots of the lateral cities,
• the free artist citizen from salons, which Kaku whipped a bunch of ~T160-170,
• the maintenance and hammer cost of post-garrison warriors for HeredRule happiness
• the additional maintenance of early, pre-courthouse cities
• the opportunity/beaker cost of Oracling Monarchy instead of CoL or Metal Casting
• ???

Kakumeika didn't actually "hold back a bit" in REXing because of the happiness cap. We were just busy building other stuff than workers and settlers, primarily because we were hung up on the 2LC condition, which constrained our thinking right to the end of the game. What's missing from Duckweed's analysis is the hammers we spent on 2 Confucian temples, 2 Confucian Monasteries, Hanging Gardens, the Apostolic Palace (plus researching Theology = brain fart) instead of REXing. I think that's the main reason team members from Kakumeika are resistant to Duckweed's argument. The Pyramids were a "drop in the bucket" in terms of hammers spent around that time. We already had the Bureaucracy +50% hammers in Paris. Hammers aplenty.

My own argument for why we didn't REX sooner after the Pyramids is that we settled a semi-junk tundra city as our third city instead of a nice settler/worker pump. That became our 4th city instead, something like 30 turns later (guessing) and that delayed our true REX by 10-15 turns (guessing), which started in earnest some time around T110, iirc. If you look at our T102 save, you'll see that our settler pump was a fledgling pop2 or so, just becoming an adolescent village.

Kakumeika started out on fire research-wise which is half the game. Alas, we didn't temper that fire with a balanced approach that would sooner feed the warmongering fires needed to rapidly reach the domination limit.

An interesting aside is that Kakumeika had a perpetual problem with reaching consensus on our strategy and even now, in hindsight, WastinTime and I can't seem to agree on the significance of the third city. Fascinating.

xpost w/shakabrade

 

[LowtherCastle]

Regarding T215 estimate, that is simply too much without solid trade partners and huge risk. T225 would already be very generous but manageable, somehow.

Very interesting analysis. I'm very inexperienced with Sushi and it's clear to me from this scenario and from your results the "Power of Sushi." During the game, I kept asking how many execs do we need, how fast? I now know the answer and it's simple: Enough to get 1 tech per turn, no more. That's precisely where this game diverged from an SSV, because the beaker overflow from the initial techs after Sushi+Mining keeps incrementing so you don't need the glorious 10K bpt you guys achieved. That's great for SSV but massive overkill in this game. EDIT: Plus, no need to build spaceship parts heavily changes the Mining influence, I'm guessing.

I'll tell you where my thinking is on this, and my analysis is still ongoing. I think Sushi is so powerful that all that island infrastructure you're talking about is secondary, just like Duckweed argues the Mids are secondary to GLH. All that was really needed was the sushi resources, so the biggest question is how fast could you get to Medicine? I'd say T170 easy.* It's not just the Rep beakers, it's also the GSes for bulbing the SciMeth line.

That's why the espionage culture trick was so crucial, that is, relaxing the 2LC constraint--if you know you don't need Great Artists, then you just beeline Sushi and go to town.

---

As for the Sushi or Mining first debate, I haven't even begun to explore that. I get the benefit of earlier cannons and hammers, but how does the Mining beeline compare to the Sushi beeline?

===

* I'm hoping I or one of my friends gives it a shot. hint hint

.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Just to play the Devil's Advocate, here's an argument against building the Pyramids: Instead of constantly fighting Ramesses for wonders and delaying giving him Civil Service to nerf his wonder whoring, just gift him Masonry asap, and later CS if needed, and let him build the Pyramids for us. Meanwhile, we spend the hammers on units instead and capture Brennus sooner and then Ramesses.

Of course, there are ramifications, such as losing our tech partner sooner, but we also get Astro much sooner, gaining better tech partners, and so on. This game had so many unexplored possibilities...

 

[shakabrade]

@LtC

My experience with late game anything is pretty limited too.
You are right about 1 tech per turn. But, it is very difficult problem to solve since cities are still growing while, true tech are getting more expensive, but then the OF kicks in to mess things up.
Early beakers can be ignored in favor of better foundation of the empire but mid game beakers were more important than what we played. My feeling was that our empire was pretty ready for a bit earlier corps, therefore we did make a mistake with keeping lower bpt. You'll see we kept some crappy cities and also some mistakes which are bound to happen made IW and WS delayed a turn or two.

I think Sushi is so powerful that all that island infrastructure you're talking about is secondary, just like Duckweed argues the Mids are secondary to GLH.

Actually, I agree. We did overemphasize infra production in ''one seafood cities''. Also, larger empire meant lower slider and thus marketplaces were more appealing. In smaller empire, they are rarely built. So we can annihilate some hammer lead we had there. Now, my thoughts are dissolving into too many strings to keep just one. As you said: ''This game had so many unexplored possibilities...''
It'd be easy to say our empire by size and infra was an overkill, but we did gain a lot of turns against Kaku regardless of our crappy capital. Optimization is a beast.

One I can think we did wrong of is limited use of bulbing. Active bulbing to Medicine, with a bit smaller empire than ours and larger than yours would probably be better. We (PD) really didn't focus on GPP.

That's why the espionage culture trick was so crucial, that is, relaxing the 2LC constraint--if you know you don't need Great Artists, then you just beeline Sushi and go to town.

It wasn't as crucial as you think it was. We'd win without it. We didn't believe in kossin enough and have gone spy culture last moment possible. We had regular T238 culture planned with T241 as a backup if memory serves me right. It could have been done much better. Also, earlier Sushi would've helped there too since higher city culture means less spy missions and spies.


Now, of to some RL optimization.

 

[Gumbolt]

So we crank it up to immortal next game or just ban these 2 wonders to save these debates. Is it possible to cheng beakers required for GLH to 500 for the player?

 

[vranasm]

So we crank it up to immortal next game or just ban these 2 wonders to save these debates. Is it possible to cheng beakers required for GLH to 500 for the player?

don't be silly...this type of conversation is exactly what differentiates between good game (civilization iv) and bad game (civilization v).

If you were forced to play civilization v we would not need SGOTM 16 to realize best opening sequence regardless of map...

 

[Gumbolt]

Not even played Civ 5 yet. I guessed as so many still on Civ 4 it can't be that great.