SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

[Manco Capac]

It's the beta version of WDWTST...for dummies. It may not look awesome, but you don't imagine the number of hours the whole project took....oh not you don't and WHATEVER...
I finally understood the code at 95%. Took awhile to track back to the very origin some obscure "ifs" like that one for hero units, which don't exist in normal games...

Spoiler :

No idea if Excel is enough polymorphic as a program to translate all those french excel functions into its equivalent in english. Otherwise, I'll to change them manually...including those arguments separators...
BTW, I made numerous test and YES BARB UNITS DO AFFECT MTKP *bipolar mode*.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Looks great, Tachy!

I'm testing it.Tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Spoiler :

Ramesses
ESTIMATE THE STRONGEST UNIT IN THE WORLD 25

HOW MANY CONTACTS HAS YOUR PARTNER? 1
HOW MANY OF THOSE CONTACTS HAS THE TECH TARGET 1
IS YOUR PARTNER IN WHEOO(R)N MODE? NO



IS CIRCUMNAVIGATION BONUS STILL AVAILABLE? YES
IS YOUR TRADE PARTNER ISOLATED ON AN ISLAND? NO
IS THAT ISOLATED TRADE PARTNER IN WHEOON AND CAN'T REACH TARGET BY LAND? NO

UNIT #1 Work Boat 0 0 0
UNIT #2 Work Boat 0 0 0

Number of buildings 5 150

Wonder Slots 1 30
Wonder already gone! 1

GRAND CONCLUSION

iValue (total) 180
MTKP (%) 108
KP (%) 100
TRADABLE? NEVER MORE…

That's false, because Ramesses was willing to trade Mysticism to us. But if I switch:

Spoiler :

Number of buildings 4 120

then

iValue (total) 150
MTKP (%) 90
KP (%) 100
TRADABLE? HURRAY!!!

Now it's true. What I'm am doing wrong? I counted five buildings: Monument, Stele, Totem Pole, Obelisk, Stonehenge

Evidently, I'm not supposed to include wonders in the buildings count, since you handle that separately. Is that correct?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, what about Sailing? DO I include triremes? Do I include GLH? In other words, do I include units/bldgs/wonders that require this and another tech?

FOr example, with AH, does include horse units since it reveals horses? If so, Ramesses treats it like a monopoly tech. If not, he trades it.

 

[LowtherCastle]

So this tells us neither Ramesses nor Brennus will trade Polytheism if the other doesn't konw it, but Ramesses will trade Bronze working when he gets it.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Even if Brennus takes the worker back it gets deleted doesn't it?

Not necessarily. ZPV said the code checks for danger. If the worker is safe, the AI can keep it. I didn't ask if there's a random factor also.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Ok, so we can get Med/PH by turn 55 with running two scientists until the Sheep are ready, then Paris takes over the cottage and has 1 scientist.

After the Warrior, toss in 1 turn of building research (instead of granary), then Oracle in Orleans.

That will get Math t64.

We can Mine/chop one hill and get Oracle 65 (or probably 66 with just the one forest) I came up 8 hammers short of a 1-forest Oracle t65.

T65 may require we chop a 2nd post-math forest and have a ton of overflow. The stolen worker arrives in time for the 2nd chop.

Are you still working the wheat? We have these jump points for Meditation:

raw final
32    40
33    42

36    45
37    47

So working 3 cottages and 2 sci in Paris gives 37 raw. Loses two hammers into the settler but it might make a difference on math.

Also, you can make up the 4base-h (if that's how many you need) on the Oracle by running research for 1t on 1960BC (1t before the sheep are pastured) instead of later. Then 1t before Phood, put the 3rd Orleans citizen on 3h and the warrior gives 4h overflow. I'm not sure what this does to your Math completion though.

===

I've tested and we can complete the Oracle in Orleans on T61/T62 with two pre-math chops using 1 worker if we have BW by T55. If we don't have BW by T55, that still leaves the option of building the Oracle in Paris.

===

So I see these options:

Requires BW
1. ?/T61/? Oracle in Paris, pre-math, 2 chops, build wkr.
2. T64/65 Oracle in Orleans, post-math, 1 chop, build settler (T?).
3. T61/62 Oracle in Orleans, pre-math, 2 chops.
3a. Can build settler faster with slower math.
3b. Can spawn GS sooner, with slower settler.

Without BW
4. ?/T64/? Oracle in Paris, no chops, build wkr.
5. T66/T67 Oracle in Orleans, no chops, build settler.

#2 and #3 can bail out to #4 without BW on T55.

Question for experts on Paris Oracle: What is completion date with Phood on T55?

 

[Manco Capac]

Number of buildings 4 120

then

iValue (total) 150
MTKP (%) 90
KP (%) 100
TRADABLE? HURRAY!!![/SPOILER]Now it's true. What I'm am doing wrong? I counted five buildings: Monument, Stele, Totem Pole, Obelisk, Stonehenge

Evidently, I'm not supposed to include wonders in the buildings count, since you handle that separately. Is that correct?

Although the code for buildings overlaps the wonder part, I decided in the spreadsheet to separate those because they behave differently. Building section is for normal building, not world wonder, thus 4 types of monuments plus a built wonder (30) for a total of 150 ==> MTKP=60*1.5 = 90% < KP=100%. If the SH wasn't built, then indeed Mysticism would have been locked over 100%.

For the early game, if we are stuck to 2 AI's, then knowing exactly the value of MTKP isn't important, but knowing if >100, yes that affects our tech path. And Ramesses has a higher TKP than Brennus.

Okay, what about Sailing? DO I include triremes? Do I include GLH? In other words, do I include units/bldgs/wonders that require this and another tech?

In the final version, yes it would be include all (btw NW is a normal building, not a wonder). But there's a difficulty about navan units because conditions to make them weighing in the balance are not completely unraveled yet and my testing didn't give me expected results.
For instance, I always thought Chemistry was not a monopoly tech, but that is a wrong assumption...
Yes, even if two techs are needed for unlocking a building/wonder/unit, include it.

So this tells us neither Ramesses nor Brennus will trade Polytheism if the other doesn't konw it, but Ramesses will trade Bronze working when he gets it.

Sure, Parthenon and ToA makes Poly a monopoly tech. Ramesses will trade it to us by a hair: MTKP=96% of ToA still available.

Not necessarily. ZPV said the code checks for danger. If the worker is safe, the AI can keep it. I didn't ask if there's a random factor also.

I've never seen a single case where the unit wasn't auto-disbanded. That's new knowledge.

Even if Brennus takes the worker back it gets deleted doesn't it?

I repeat and cite myself, if the worker stumbles in wrong hands, better disband it than having a losing War Success.

FOr example, with AH, does include horse units since it reveals horses? If so, Ramesses treats it like a monopoly tech. If not, he trades it.

Nope, AH is monopoly-free. Revealing resources are not accounted. And The Wheel is the tech that enables the horse-based unit. The only special I've seen is if the circumnavigation is still available and that bizarre and useless function for world unit (a unit that can be built once just like a wonder...worldwide).

BTW, some facts:

The game checks for the strongest unit once. It doesn't care what happens to it afterward, being killed or deleted by mapmaker after rethinking his scenario.
The monopoly value checks are completely independant of difficulty levels and map size.

 

[LowtherCastle]

One other significant advantage of Oracle in Orleans that I keep forgetting to mention is that we develop those two river mines so that Orleans can then immediately function as a hammer city, producing wbs, a settler, units, lh, GLH, or whatever. By contrast, the chops in Paris serve no practical future purpose.

 

[Manco Capac]

About Sailings: Looks like we won't get it from Ramesses. Brennus, it was possible, but not Ramesses. Even ignoring sea-based units, we have 102% with GLH still available (30(lh)+30(tp)+30(mstatus)+80 (GLH)) ==> MTKP=102%. By a hair!!!

 

[Kaitzilla]

So the final conclusion on Oracle is:

Paris - T61 with BW trade
Paris - T64 without BW trade (don't research it at all)
Orleans - T65/T66 with BW trade
Orleans - ?? without BW trade (self-research)

 

[Walter_Wolf]

The big question is if the team is willing to risk losing the Oracle.

 

[bcool]

I'd personally rather build the Oracle in Paris and not take the risk

 

[Kaitzilla]

Are you still working the wheat? We have these jump points for Meditation:

raw final
32    40
33    42

36    45
37    47

So working 3 cottages and 2 sci in Paris gives 37 raw. Loses two hammers into the settler but it might make a difference on math.

Also, you can make up the 4base-h (if that's how many you need) on the Oracle by running research for 1t on 1960BC (1t before the sheep are pastured) instead of later. Then 1t before Phood, put the 3rd Orleans citizen on 3h and the warrior gives 4h overflow. I'm not sure what this does to your Math completion though.

===

I've tested and we can complete the Oracle in Orleans on T61/T62 with two pre-math chops using 1 worker if we have BW by T55. If we don't have BW by T55, that still leaves the option of building the Oracle in Paris.

===

So I see these options:

Requires BW
1. ?/T61/? Oracle in Paris, pre-math, 2 chops, build wkr.
2. T64/65 Oracle in Orleans, post-math, 1 chop, build settler (T?).
3. T61/62 Oracle in Orleans, pre-math, 2 chops.
3a. Can build settler faster with slower math.
3b. Can spawn GS sooner, with slower settler.

Without BW
4. ?/T64/? Oracle in Paris, no chops, build wkr.
5. T66/T67 Oracle in Orleans, no chops, build settler.

#2 and #3 can bail out to #4 without BW on T55.

Question for experts on Paris Oracle: What is completion date with Phood on T55?

How is #3 achieved?

Is #5 really possible with no chops?

We report tech and wonders complete the turn they show up for us to use. Getting Priesthood on T55? Hmm. I'm not sure it would speed up Oracle completion date in Paris if it was building a worker. It might speed it up if we decide to build Oracle in Orleans.


So far I'm leaning Paris because we aren't required to research BW to get it done T64. If we do get BW through trade, then it should get done T61.

If we manage BW through trades by T55, I might still vote for Oracle in Orleans if most of the team isn't concerned by Oracle completion date, or if #3 is really possible.

 

[WastinTime]

Shouldn't we be getting a spy out by turn 60? Two actually in case one is caught.
He needs to travel a long way and wait 5 turns once there. Maybe that instead of settler. We won't be over-growing Paris assuming we run a couple Scientists.

 

[WastinTime]

I think Paris should rush Mids after we get CS, so I'm for Oracle in Orleans.
Mining those hills are a good investment as LowtherCastle pointed out.

 

[shulec]

I don't feel we need the spies that soon. We have a greater need for settlers, granaries, workers (depending on our stealing) and wonders. IW will not be needed for a gems site as one of the next city sites.

If we are able to get chariots (with Oracle in Orleans), we should be able to prevent iron hookup even without knowledge of iron location.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

If we manage to sneak the stolen worker through, he could be idealy in Paris borders by T58, ready to plan some chops ~T59 Paris, or ~T60 Orleans.
If it's not too soon for the spy action planning (Brennus not researching IW. In the test game, he researches mono I think 2 out of 3 times), maybe we could start one instead of the worker T50, and decide on the oracle location T55/56. But ...

If the worker doesn't make it, we're left with very little chop / improve manouverability.

I suppose T55 Phood requires playing with 80 - 90% research slider from T49 on. Or not?

I guess playing in 5 hours as I originally planned is too soon. I will run a few tests tonight instead, and hope for some constructive ideas from the team.

 

[WastinTime]

I don't feel we need the spies that soon.

I know it sounds early, but it's it will take 18 turns (minimum) for the spy to do his thing. So were looking at t80 IW even if we throw the spy in soon.

 

[WastinTime]

@LowtherCastle, I was not working the Wheat.

 

[LowtherCastle]

So the final conclusion on Oracle is:

Paris - T61 with BW trade
Paris - T64 without BW trade (don't research it at all)
Orleans - T65/T66 with BW trade
Orleans - ?? without BW trade (self-research)

No. FOr Orleans it's:
Orleans - T62 with BW trade by T55 (BW could be somewhat later if we built a worker in Paris)
Orleans - T65 with BW, after math
Orleans - T67 without BW whatoever.

How is #3 achieved?

T55 Phood. Hammers are like this:
T56 (4h OF + 8h) * 150% = 18h
T57-T62 6t * 8hpt * 150% = 72h
T60-T61 2 chops @ 20h * 150% = 60h
Total: 150h

Is #5 really possible with no chops?

Yes. Like this:

T56 (4h OF + 8h) * 150% = 18h
T57-T67 11t * 8hpt * 150% = 132h
Total: 150h