SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

[WastinTime]

Do we have a test game updated to t49?

 

[Walter_Wolf]

shulec made it and put it in post 713 .

 

[WastinTime]

shulec made it and put it in post 713 .

Thx, I looked back 4 pages and all I found was the t41 save. How about we put the latest save in post#1 or #2?

 

[Walter_Wolf]

I don't like moving the worker slave to the silk unless we have lured the axe out of Brennus's culture already. If the axe still lurks in the capital moving the slave to the silk and Louis to the copper means the axe threatens them both. If we move the slave to 1S of the silk instead then the axe in Brennus's capital would have to either threaten louis or the slave, but it couldn't do both.

Are we pillaging the copper T52 if the axe moves to the forest 1W of Bitracte?
Will move slave to the silk only if that tile is safe.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Even if there is a lot of questions still waiting for a precise answer, I am putting the up to T56 PPP up.

Could play in about 28 hours from now.

If the team comes to a concensus that Paris should build a settler or whatever else instead of the worker starting T50,
or research poly instead of meditation, or anything else, I could make a last minute update to the PPP a few hours before playing time, and go ahead and play.

The Oracle site can be decided after the mini turnset, but Paris next build starts T50.

Am I allowed to d othat, or we need more brainstorming / testing time?

cheers

 

[Walter_Wolf]

PPP for partial turnset #6, T49 - T56 v3

The grand strategy from the 1st page with a few questions added.

Spoiler :

Grand Strategy tentative

Goal domination and religious victory
Use large corporation-empowered, near-domination-size empire to power through research to FT1
Worker stealing is so important I think we have to plan for it even perhaps if we have only 1 AI on our continent (we can steal techs from the them too even if we can't trade)
Use Oracle for Metal Casting and set up to get great engineer (oracle CoL? MC? else?)
Ideally build Pyramids with stone to help with great engineer and our research (and to help handle an early expansion and still maintain a decent tech rate)
build early AP and early Univ of S to help with research while expanding rapidly via REX and early conquest (AP in which religion?)
build sistine chapel and early temple and early monastery in our 2 planned legendary cities. Early temple and early monastery to get some synergy with AP and Univ of S. and get their culture doubled (with sistine chapel an old temple and old monastery go a long ways to getting legendary culture)
build most of our wonders in 2 planned legendary cities (Paris and Orleans?).
Early astronomy for tech trading and trade routes? Plus might want to conquer an AI over on the other continent early to set up for domination win.
Early biology and early sushi to help recover from lots of Organized religion whipping of temples and monasteries plus sushi for the culture.

We've been discussing some of the questions I put in, and others will get discussed as the game progresses I guess.


Decathlon status:

Spoiler :

1) Blazing: You must submit a save covering at least your first 100 turns not later than 2 months after game start. (November 21st?)
2) Steal EITHER Iron Working, OR Astronomy, OR Physics using espionage. (Probably Iron Working from Brennus)
3) At least one AI opponent has been eliminated (conquered) by your team
4) Kill Humbaba (24 unit according to Tachwaxon's research)
5) Be EITHER the United Nations Secretary General OR the Apostolic Palace Resident
6) You own at least 2 Legendary culture cities
7) You own at least 3 Holy Shrines (Budhist, Confu? And &#8230.
8) You own at least 3 Corporate Headquarters (mining inc, Sushi, the appropriate one depending on GP availability).
9) You have learned Future Tech 1
10) Fulfil the requirements for TWO victory conditions, at least one of which is NOT Conquest or Domination.

Technology

Building the library in 1T costs us 5 (we get 17 instead of 22) commerce with the research slider at 0% T49. We have -3 maintanance atm and it might increase with the stolen worker.

Research
0% T49
100 % T50 - T54 while researching Meditation, and then stretch
90% T55 and
as low possible to get Priesthood T56.

T49 - T53 Meditation
T54 - T56 Priesthood
T57 - Math / BW


Diplomacy
Accept demands from Ramesses if it's not Alphabet. For the record, we already have -1 " Refused to stop trading with our WE". Trade BW for Alphabet with him ASAP.
Declare war on Brennus T49.


PPP for city builds and units orders.

Paris

T49 - build Library working Wheat, 2x PH forest, Silk and grass forest. Gives 24 hammers, Library completed T50, Paris left with 9 food in storage for an eventual 8 turns slow build of the oracle (8 turns at -1 food).
T50 - build worker working Wheat, and 4 FP cottages.
T56 - worker built, decide next build


Orleans

T49 - build warrior working 2 cottages
T50 - switch Paris cottage to flood plains.
T52 - switch flood plains to sheep pasture
T54 - grows, add flood plains, warrior produced, garrison, start granary
T55 - Eiffel finishes cottage.
T56 - consider build options

Workers
Eiffel

T49 - T52 pasture sheep
T53 - T55 finish cottage 1E of Orleans
T56 - awaiting orders; chop ?

T56 Paris new worker
awaiting orders; chop?

Warriors
Adam - fogbust the pigs/wine area from the current location.
Joan - unfog the north and fogbust on the "Warrior Spawnbust" sign tile 2S of deer.
Bill - Garrison Paris.
T54 Orleans warrior garrison Orleans.

Eve/Louis/Slave combo all the credits to LowtherCastle .

T49 - Eve gets teleported 1S1W of stone tile after the DoW. Capture the worker.

T50 - Louis move 1S1W. Smell the air.
Slave 1N to check 1S of Bitracte. If clear,
Eve 1N1W to the forest,
Slave 1W to the forest where Eve is. Hope to lure a unit from the city and make louis later moves safe.
Louis move 1S if it's clear.

T51 - Louis 1S to forest. If copper is clear, go to copper.
Slave 1W, 1NW to the silk
Eve scout 1S1W.
I think it's better not to risk Eve's life by moving 1W LowtherCastle suggested. If Slave stumbles accross a unit with the 1W move, consider western escape route.

T52 - Louis pillages copper
Slave joins Louis if the "silk route" worked.


End of turn reminder
Save Game at the beginning of each turn.
Take a screenshot of the demographics and espionage screen each turn.
Check zoomed-out culture screen for Ramesess or "alien" culture.
Check if an AI entered WHEOOHRN mode (fist icon).

Passive intelligence data:
Note sabotage building values for Brennus's cities each turn.
Note AI's score each turn.
Note AI's power ratio against us each turn (it's set to 4 decimal places in my BUFFY settings since the last SGOTM).


Stopping conditions
Meet a new AI.
Unexpected War Declaration.
Find Stone or Marble while exploring.
Something weird happens.
Barbarian warrior/archer entering our culture.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Even if there is a lot of questions still waiting for a precise answer, I am putting the up to T56 PPP up.

Could play in about 28 hours from now.

If the team comes to a concensus that Paris should build a settler or whatever else instead of the worker starting T50,
or research poly instead of meditation, or anything else, I could make a last minute update to the PPP a few hours before playing time, and go ahead and play.

The Oracle site can be decided after the mini turnset, but Paris next build starts T50.

Am I allowed to d othat, or we need more brainstorming / testing time?

cheers

I would like to see WastinTime's test game before you play to T56. It's not just about the build in Paris. It's also about the beakers. Should we go for T55 Phood? Should we start working scientists? I think we probalby should, even if we build a worker in Paris. But I'd like to see how WastinTime does it.

 

[mabraham]

Thx, I looked back 4 pages and all I found was the t41 save. How about we put the latest save in post#1 or #2?

Yeah good idea. #3 from bcool probably suits best.

 

[mabraham]

Before reading the above discussion, I didn't realize the plan was to not work the cottages for 6 turns. OUCH! That's 60 coins! Plus 18 cottage-building turns lost. Plus 2 chops in our capital. That got kind of expensive all of the sudden.

With BW in trade, we can get the Oracle in Orleans on T62, using two chops. If we have to research BW by hand, T63. We work the cottages pretty much straight through and even get 18 GS gpps in Paris.

As Kaitzilla points out, there's a serious trade-off here. If those extra commerce are going into self-teching something like BW that we'd otherwise trade for in 5-10 turns time, then their value is heavily reduced. On the general principle of strategic consistency, I'd prefer to keep working the cottages in Paris and get hammers out of Orleans, but I'm afraid I don't have time to consider all the plans in detail. My early test game reports had mid-T60s Oracle in Orleans, and even if there are some chops in Orleans, it still has good GLH potential if that's the way we end up going.

The more I think about it, the more we want to leverage our settling spot plus half-priced library ==> quick academy. With CoL, we'd be able to rapidly research Civil Service, then use all those chops in Paris for the Pyramids, giving us a relatively early specialist economy. Our research will simply kick a$$. SE also allows us to REX and war since we can research at 0% slider, if need be.

Indeed, a mid-game of Bur-Paris and Rep-SE from the eastern coastal cities would be very nice.

Another option at this point is to go back to WastinTime's original idea with the Oracle in Orleans. That is, complete it on T64/65 after completing Math. I did a quick test run on this and on T65, we're about 20t from completing Civil Service, that is, 750BC. That would mean chops for the Pyramids without stone would be worth 60h each, with stone 90h each, if they're still available of course.

Yes, also a serious option.

 

[mabraham]

This tile usage gives -3 food. Paris is at 10 food stored right now, so I'm affraid a 8 turns starving (-1 food) slow build the oracle period won't work. I'll try to figure out if it does.

Starving to zero food does not cause population loss. Starving to -1 food does.

 

[mabraham]

One option for Paris, if it doesn't want to build worker or settler, is to let it grow unhappy working the cottages and plan a 2-pop whip the turn it acquires Confu+state religion. That might time out well with Oracle completion in Orleans (plus travel time).

Basically, it's a moderately inefficient way to convert food to hammers. At size 5 working 5 cottages (say) the food excess is 5, so we grow to size 6 in about 6 turns (depending on the food bin level now). We can perhaps juggle the last (new) cottage with the wheat farm to time our growth to size 7 to line up with a 2-pop whip and the availability of from Confu so that we kill 2 , pick up a temporary 1 from whipping, get 1 from Confu and can time out our growth back to size 6 10 turns later, where we will be happy.

 

[WastinTime]

I'm working thru a couple scenarios. I'm coming up with basically the same thing I did last time. Math t65, Oracle t66 with one chop in Orleans. Paris builds a settler.

Let me work out a few more details and I'll post results.

 

[WastinTime]

Ok, so we can get Med/PH by turn 55 with running two scientists until the Sheep are ready, then Paris takes over the cottage and has 1 scientist.

After the Warrior, toss in 1 turn of building research (instead of granary), then Oracle in Orleans.

That will get Math t64.

We can Mine/chop one hill and get Oracle 65 (or probably 66 with just the one forest) I came up 8 hammers short of a 1-forest Oracle t65.

T65 may require we chop a 2nd post-math forest and have a ton of overflow. The stolen worker arrives in time for the 2nd chop.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

I have internet connection issues. Typing from my phone now.
Will try to fix it in the morning.

Hope oracle T65/66 isn't too late.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'm ok with the PPP through t56.

I'm a bit concerned about the DoW versus Brennus. We should have all contingency plans validated via the test game, gaming trees or other analysis methods, including studies of AI behavior that tachywaxon has been advancing.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ok, so we can get Med/PH by turn 55 with running two scientists until the Sheep are ready, then Paris takes over the cottage and has 1 scientist.

After the Warrior, toss in 1 turn of building research (instead of granary), then Oracle in Orleans.

That will get Math t64.

We can Mine/chop one hill and get Oracle 65 (or probably 66 with just the one forest) I came up 8 hammers short of a 1-forest Oracle t65.

T65 may require we chop a 2nd post-math forest and have a ton of overflow. The stolen worker arrives in time for the 2nd chop.

Does the T66 Oracle self-research Bronze Working or rely on getting it from Egypt?

 

[Kaitzilla]

I'm ok with the PPP through t56.

I'm a bit concerned about the DoW versus Brennus. We should have all contingency plans validated via the test game, gaming trees or other analysis methods, including studies of AI behavior that tachywaxon has been advancing.

Sun Tzu Wu

We're all concerned that the DoW will blow up, but we are sure we will get that first worker!

Even if Brennus takes the worker back it gets deleted doesn't it?


Using 30 worth of warriors to inflict twice as much hammer damage on Brennus and gain us an equal worth of hammers on the first turn .

We lose some scouting and trading potential though.


Getting a free worker would be huge for us.

 

[shulec]

If we need extra , we need to consider building research in Orleans after the warrior before Pop 4.

 

[WastinTime]

Does the T66 Oracle self-research Bronze Working or rely on getting it from Egypt?

get's it from Egypt

 

[shulec]

By the way, the reason the test game gives a religion when you research Polytheism is that when I made the test game, Ramesses founded hinduism, so I had to take it away and give it to an overseas AI. This is easily fixed by worldbuiding the religion out of Orleans if you found it.