Based on the comments in favor/against each option, I prefer option #4 to get us to Education sooner, but we need to REX or capture cities shortly after our Research boost, assuming Domination is still one of our Victory Condition goals.
Option #4 would not stop working the scientists on T63 to produce a settler. Nor would it whip the settler complete. On turn 63, it only needs a few more turns to complete the Great Scientist and would be kind of silly to stop working scientists so close to an Academy.
Thus, the settler would come out much later in plan #4 than in plan #3.
Fundamentally, plan#4 vs. plan#3 trades for . A worker and most of a settler is traded for much faster Math and better chops.
LTC's alternate Eiffel micro of a road instead of finishing the cottage might be an acceptable hedge to Slave never making it home. It would allow one worker to double chop Oracle in a decent time, assuming we don't need that extra cottage to barely get Math in time for T64 Oracle.
The two unknowns right now complicating planning are Slave making it home and us getting Bronze Working in a trade.
I feel that we are running out of time for me to drag this out even longer. I will capitulate to the teching home-run swing and consent to plan#4 if the team still likes it.
Good luck Walter_Wolf!
I think we are down to good and very good options, so I'll stop arguing now and support what you choose.
Just make sure to play through a test game once to make sure the micro you choose works ok.
Kaitzilla, my impression is that I didn't explain my comparison analysis of Option 3 an 4 very well. I'll try to summarize it differently so people are clear on it.
1. The analysis does not necessarily argue in favor of Option 4. I'm not sure which is better, because no one has tested the effects of having the 3rd worker to get City3 up to speed a little faster.
2. Options 4 DOES have alternative choices at T63. Completing the settler before the GS might be the better option, especially if we're going to settle Fish/Pigs, because it will need 5 turns to expand its borders before a worker can even do anything. That would only delay the academy 6 turns, which needn't cost us much if we have our slider at 0% for some of those turns.
3. "Fundamentally, plan#4 vs. plan#3 trades for . A worker and most of a settler is traded for much faster Math and better chops."
Your above statement does not correspond to what my comparison analysis shows. My analysis may be wrong, but this is how I interpret it:
Option 3 completes math about 3 turns later than Option 4, which only affects three chops in Option 3.
Option 3 is only 9h ahead on the settler on T64.
Option 4 is not really behind in the worker-hammers or overall hammers either, at least, not if Option 3 spawns a GP in Paris, because 14 scientist-turns cost between 42 and 70 food-hammers, depending on which tiles don't get worked. So Option 4 is actually about equal or maybe even a bit ahead on hammers. In short, Option 3 just builds the worker sooner.
The main advantage of Option 3 is 15 worker-turns starting T62 and the main question is, do we need them starting T62 or not?
4. We should know whether Brennus is researching Poly or BW within the next few turns, and surely by T55. Unless, of course, he's reseaerching HBR or switched to a post-Writing tech after we traded that, both of which are highly unlikely.
Kaitzilla, my apologies if my explanation was confusing...
Walter, I've got a much better idea for this. We don't need the cottage. We only use it one turn anyway. Instead:
T53 move 1W to forest grass hill (Orleans-1N)
T54-T55 road
This will allow Eiffel to pre-chop that forest 2 turns instead of only one, assuming BW by T58. The significance is that if Slave never arrives, the Oracle is only delayed 1 turn. Furthermore, on T56-T57, Eiffel can road the sheep, so that the horses can be connected sooner.
I never did like cottaging that fp because I see us working fish, sheep, and two mines or older cottages anyway.
Kaitzilla, my impression is that I didn't explain my comparison analysis of Option 3 an 4 very well. I'll try to summarize it differently so people are clear on it.
1. The analysis does not necessarily argue in favor of Option 4. I'm not sure which is better, because no one has tested the effects of having the 3rd worker to get City3 up to speed a little faster.
2. Options 4 DOES have alternative choices at T63. Completing the settler before the GS might be the better option, especially if we're going to settle Fish/Pigs, because it will need 5 turns to expand its borders before a worker can even do anything. That would only delay the academy 6 turns, which needn't cost us much if we have our slider at 0% for some of those turns.
3. "Fundamentally, plan#4 vs. plan#3 trades for . A worker and most of a settler is traded for much faster Math and better chops."
Your above statement does not correspond to what my comparison analysis shows. My analysis may be wrong, but this is how I interpret it:
Option 3 completes math about 3 turns later than Option 4, which only affects three chops in Option 3.
Option 3 is only 9h ahead on the settler on T64.
Option 4 is not really behind in the worker-hammers or overall hammers either, at least, not if Option 3 spawns a GP in Paris, because 14 scientist-turns cost between 42 and 70 food-hammers, depending on which tiles don't get worked. So Option 4 is actually about equal or maybe even a bit ahead on hammers. In short, Option 3 just builds the worker sooner.
The main advantage of Option 3 is 15 worker-turns starting T62 and the main question is, do we need them starting T62 or not?
4. We should know whether Brennus is researching Poly or BW within the next few turns, and surely by T55. Unless, of course, he's reseaerching HBR or switched to a post-Writing tech after we traded that, both of which are highly unlikely.
OK, they both sound pretty good in this light, and we can't plan seriously with all our unknowns. WW, please pick something consistent with feedback and do it.
Caveat, I do not regard fish-pigs (e.g. 2E of corn) as a desirable second city site. It's further away from everything, so settles later, gets worker support later, needs more turns on roads to get a trade route, has no mines and few chops than a sound alternative (2S of corn) that has mines, chops, river cottages, shared tiles with capital. Basically the only thing we can do with the three food resources of fish-pigs-corn is pump settlers and workers, and the site 2S of corn at size 3 working a Gmine produces only 2/turn less than that, and each settler/worker it would produce is at least half a turn closer to where it will settle/work.
The grand strategy from the 1st page with a few questions added.
Spoiler:
Grand Strategy tentative
Goal domination and religious victory
Use large corporation-empowered, near-domination-size empire to power through research to FT1
Worker stealing is so important I think we have to plan for it even perhaps if we have only 1 AI on our continent (we can steal techs from the them too even if we can't trade)
Use Oracle for Metal Casting and set up to get great engineer (oracle CoL? MC? else?)
Ideally build Pyramids with stone to help with great engineer and our research (and to help handle an early expansion and still maintain a decent tech rate)
build early AP and early Univ of S to help with research while expanding rapidly via REX and early conquest (AP in which religion?)
build sistine chapel and early temple and early monastery in our 2 planned legendary cities. Early temple and early monastery to get some synergy with AP and Univ of S. and get their culture doubled (with sistine chapel an old temple and old monastery go a long ways to getting legendary culture)
build most of our wonders in 2 planned legendary cities (Paris and Orleans?).
Early astronomy for tech trading and trade routes? Plus might want to conquer an AI over on the other continent early to set up for domination win.
Early biology and early sushi to help recover from lots of Organized religion whipping of temples and monasteries plus sushi for the culture.
We've been discussing some of the questions I put in, and others will get discussed as the game progresses I guess.
Decathlon status:
Spoiler:
1) Blazing: You must submit a save covering at least your first 100 turns not later than 2 months after game start. (November 21st?)
2) Steal EITHER Iron Working, OR Astronomy, OR Physics using espionage. (Probably Iron Working from Brennus)
3) At least one AI opponent has been eliminated (conquered) by your team
4) Kill Humbaba (24 unit according to Tachwaxon's research)
5) Be EITHER the United Nations Secretary General OR the Apostolic Palace Resident
6) You own at least 2 Legendary culture cities
7) You own at least 3 Holy Shrines (Budhist, Confu? And ….
8) You own at least 3 Corporate Headquarters (mining inc, Sushi, the appropriate one depending on GP availability).
9) You have learned Future Tech 1
10) Fulfil the requirements for TWO victory conditions, at least one of which is NOT Conquest or Domination.
Technology
Research
T49 – 0% Meditation
100 % T50 - T55 while researching Meditation, and Priesthood.
T56 - Math
Diplomacy
Accept demands from Ramesses if it's not Alphabet. For the record, we already have -1 " Refused to stop trading with our WE". Trade BW (and archery if possible) for Alphabet with him ASAP.
Declare war on Brennus T49. Try to cease fire with Brennus ASAP, so he doesn't start spamming units (archers) and we get another possible worker steal opportunity. Cease fire not likely to happen till T55, but don't offer/refuse CF afterwards also, choke Brennus. Will be difficult considering he has at least one axe and/or spear (LowtherCastle says he does).
PPP for city builds and units orders.
Paris
T49 - build Library working Cottage, 2x PH forest, Silk and plains forest. Gives 24 hammers, Library completed T50, shulec suggested this. It squeezes out a few more coins T49.
T50 – T55 build Settler working 3 FP cottages and 2 scientists. Gives a G scientist T 67/68.
Orleans
T49 - build warrior working 2 cottages
T52 - switch a cottage to sheep pasture
T54 - grows, add cotage, warrior produced, garrison, build 1T research T55 - Start Oracle if BW is in or likely in time for the chops.
Workers
Eiffel
T49 - T52 pasture sheep T53 - move to GHF 1N of Orleans
T54 - road
Warriors
Adam - fogbust the pigs/wine area from the current location.
Joan - unfog the north and fogbust on the "Warrior Spawnbust" sign tile 2S of deer.
Bill - Garrison Paris.
T54 Orleans warrior garrison Orleans.
Eve/Louis/Slave combo all the credits to LowtherCastle .
T49 - Eve gets teleported 1S1W of stone tile after the DoW. Capture the worker.
T50 - Louis move 1S1W. Smell the air. Slave 1N to check 1S of Bitracte. If clear,
Eve 1N1W to the forest,
Slave 1W to the forest where Eve is. Hope to lure a unit from the city and make louis later moves safe.
Louis move 1S if it's clear. Slave 1W to check if W area is clear. If clear, Eve 1W; if not clear,
Eve 1N1W to the forest; slave follows Eve.
T51 - Louis 1S to forest. If copper is clear, go to copper. If copper not clear, fortify in forest or else? depending on the threatening unit. Slave 1W, 1NW to the silk
Eve scout 1S1W.
I think it's better not to risk Eve's life by moving 1W LowtherCastle suggested. If Slave stumbles accross a unit with the 1W move, consider western escape route. Slave to 1S of oasis. If clear, Eve follows.
T52 - Louis pillages copper Slave joins Louis if the "silk route" worked. Slave to 1S1W of oasis. If Silk is clear, Eve and Slave to silk.
T53 - Louis to the forrest 1N1E and head out of Brennus culture.
Slave 2N to the copper site, and head out of Brennus culture ASAP.
Eve - scout the South to avoid being teleported North (eventually with a cease fire) between our and Brennus culure.
End of turn reminder
Save Game at the beginning of each turn.
Take a screenshot of the demographics and espionage screen each turn.
Check zoomed-out culture screen for Ramesess or "alien" culture.
Check if an AI entered WHEOOHRN mode (fist icon). Doublecheck tech trade options with Egipt.
Passive intelligence data:
Note sabotage building values for Brennus's cities each turn.
Note AI's score each turn.
Note AI's power ratio against us each turn (it's set to 4 decimal places in my BUFFY settings since the last SGOTM).
Stopping conditions
Meet a new AI.
Unexpected War Declaration.
Find Stone or Marble while exploring. Just pause, and share the info via the forums.
Something weird happens.
Barbarian warrior/archer entering our culture. Lose the Slave.
I would rather not take a cease fire with Brennus if he will accept. The benefit of the Woodsman II warrior is that the AI does expect a two move warrior and will leave its workers in range. I like choking Brennus. If we end up on an all Buddhism continent and we get Buddhism, we will be able to get trades with Brennus even with the -3 diplo. I don't care if he spams archers. We are not going after him with axes, swords or chariots.
I'd add stopping condition we lose the worker slave.
Probably just make stone/marble a pausing condition. I doubt we are going to change anything if we find it. (not that much exploring is going on)
I would rather not take a cease fire with Brennus if he will accept. The benefit of the Woodsman II warrior is that the AI does expect a two move warrior and will leave its workers in range. I like choking Brennus. If we end up on an all Buddhism continent and we get Buddhism, we will be able to get trades with Brennus even with the -3 diplo. I don't care if he spams archers. We are not going after him with axes, swords or chariots.
I'd add stopping condition we lose the worker slave.
Probably just make stone/marble a pausing condition. I doubt we are going to change anything if we find it. (not that much exploring is going on)
About Eve. When destacked from Slave, she might explore a little around the silk (SW direction I mean). It's maybe a better call than wondering around Brennus lands, and get herself killed. That would mean we are distracting some of the Brennus units, but we loose the SW explorer. Another potential trading partner would be priceless. What do you think?
About Eve. When destacked from Slave, she might explore a little around the silk (SW direction I mean). It's maybe a better call than wondering around Brennus lands, and get herself killed. That would mean we are distracting some of the Brennus units, but we loose the SW explorer. Another potential trading partner would be priceless. What do you think?
Eve could run into barb archers any time, so preferably defensive tiles. I thought we were hoping to defog the western coastline to Ramesses for better trade routes. That should take into account one more border expansion by Bibracte, so we probably need to defog two water tiles deep in that specific area.
===
As for trading partners, the eastern coast looks barren of islands, whereas the western coast sees a number of land formations. Since we were supposed to settle on the eastern coast originally, that's another advantage we have settling where we did--our second city is already on teh western coast. I'm guessing, our wbs will score us a trading partner or more. But that's irrelevant to your turnset.
About Eve. When destacked from Slave, she might explore a little around the silk (SW direction I mean). It's maybe a better call than wondering around Brennus lands, and get herself killed. That would mean we are distracting some of the Brennus units, but we loose the SW explorer.
I always get out the 2 tile radius of the cities. (not sure if it's the BFC or the 2 tiles) If you don't, you get serious military buildup. I find they will generally go back to peaceful worker/settler builds and leave 2 defenders/city, but maybe Brennus acts differently.
Considering how critical the moves for Eve, Louis and the slave will be, it would be great could get some people together on the forum available to view some screenshots to see if anyone has any ideas if something unexpected happens.
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. A worker and most of a settler is traded for much faster Math and better chops.
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culture.
