Doh. That freak Buddism spread to Ramesses must have occured after all.
The +3 should have become -1 and will become -2 on T145 but we should get the next and final shared civic tick on T141 so he should stay Friendly with us I think.
SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Doh. That freak Buddism spread to Ramesses must have occured after all.
The +3 should have become -1 and will become -2 on T145 but we should get the next and final shared civic tick on T141 so he should stay Friendly with us I think.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
Here's the t138 test game save. The Treasury is lower than the real game, since we didn't get 40W in trade and the city capture pillage amount was lower too.
Sun Tzu Wu
Sun Tzu Wu
mabraham
Deity
Hmm, well none of that was too good for us.
Ramesses flip was not great, but there's nothing we can afford to do about it now.
There's a barb galley up NW. AFAICR the barb galley will chase Sea Vous Plas rather than go after seafood. I think we should drop Cartier on the plains peninsula for the vision, and jink N-NW while waiting for the trireme out of Lyons. The test game didn't match the real game. There is no barb galley in the real game.
If Emirillion's mission is to ferry the missionary to Lyons, then that happens soonest if it returns to 1NW of DrunkPigs and waits for the missionary there. This turn the missionary moves to a floodplains, then next turn it boards Emerillion, who moves 2W to outside Lyons.
We now have a pike and a superfluous half-pike (!) in Orleans.There is no evidence Brennus even has horses, so perhaps we should have thought to switch the Orleans pike off last turn. Oh well. Apparently Brennus does have horses resource from the trade window. Anyway, it seems best to finish the pike now - CR1 pike is not terrible for cleanup.
HC whips archer, DPF pike moves along the NW road to 1SE of the marauding chariot, cleans up and heads to the front.
Adam can move 1E to see what's happening. Maybe there's a worker steal on offer? Crusoe 1SE to Duro, of course.
On the war, Camulodunum has 45% culture, a fortified C2 axe, a new unfortified unpromoted gallic warrior and a (presumably) fortified unpromoted archer. So there's basically no chance of getting chariot to attack axe or mace to attack gallic warrior. I guess we bombard Camulodunum (6% remains), give CR1 to the mace and attack with Boudica and the mace and then follow up with the chariots. Prefer the archers see no combat, i.e. the XP goes to the chariots. Reinforcements move up. Workers do whatever, but we want one ready to move with the stack next turn.
I wouldn't worry about trying to grow a medic. We're going to need every unit for fighting and if we need a medic after Tolosa, then a cease fire will do the job. So Flanking 1 for chariots and CR1 for maces?
Next turn, the siege plus archers, chariots and maceman 2 move along the roads to 2S of Camul, along with a worker to build a road there T139-140. Wounded units heal in place for two turns (promotion for healing first if needed) while waiting for the reinforcements to catch up.
Estimated attack on Tolosa is T143 when the maces 1NW of Paris arrive? If so, the earliest we could conceivably attack Bibracte might be T146-7, which means we want a new spy ASAP from Paris for the dun mission in Bibracte?
Do city micro after we capture Camul, so that the gems access is restored and you don't have to go back and check the micro.
Ramesses flip was not great, but there's nothing we can afford to do about it now.
If Emirillion's mission is to ferry the missionary to Lyons, then that happens soonest if it returns to 1NW of DrunkPigs and waits for the missionary there. This turn the missionary moves to a floodplains, then next turn it boards Emerillion, who moves 2W to outside Lyons.
We now have a pike and a superfluous half-pike (!) in Orleans.
HC whips archer, DPF pike moves along the NW road to 1SE of the marauding chariot, cleans up and heads to the front.
Adam can move 1E to see what's happening. Maybe there's a worker steal on offer? Crusoe 1SE to Duro, of course.
On the war, Camulodunum has 45% culture, a fortified C2 axe, a new unfortified unpromoted gallic warrior and a (presumably) fortified unpromoted archer. So there's basically no chance of getting chariot to attack axe or mace to attack gallic warrior. I guess we bombard Camulodunum (6% remains), give CR1 to the mace and attack with Boudica and the mace and then follow up with the chariots. Prefer the archers see no combat, i.e. the XP goes to the chariots. Reinforcements move up. Workers do whatever, but we want one ready to move with the stack next turn.
I wouldn't worry about trying to grow a medic. We're going to need every unit for fighting and if we need a medic after Tolosa, then a cease fire will do the job. So Flanking 1 for chariots and CR1 for maces?
Next turn, the siege plus archers, chariots and maceman 2 move along the roads to 2S of Camul, along with a worker to build a road there T139-140. Wounded units heal in place for two turns (promotion for healing first if needed) while waiting for the reinforcements to catch up.
Estimated attack on Tolosa is T143 when the maces 1NW of Paris arrive? If so, the earliest we could conceivably attack Bibracte might be T146-7, which means we want a new spy ASAP from Paris for the dun mission in Bibracte?
Do city micro after we capture Camul, so that the gems access is restored and you don't have to go back and check the micro.
mabraham
Deity
Plan B for Camulodunum might be to bombard only this turn, then use the treb to attack Camul next turn (~87%).
I think this gets much higher chances to take Camul with no losses. With the simple plan we are ~70% with mace and low chances on about 3 chariot fights. In plan B, we get the option to get the XP from Camul attacks on two maces, to get both to CR2 in time for Tolosa (though maybe not at full health).
We still have five cats able to move on past Camul T139 in either scenario, which is important because we have to plan for the possibility of bombing Tolosa down if we lose our spy or the mission fails.
I think this gets much higher chances to take Camul with no losses. With the simple plan we are ~70% with mace and low chances on about 3 chariot fights. In plan B, we get the option to get the XP from Camul attacks on two maces, to get both to CR2 in time for Tolosa (though maybe not at full health).
We still have five cats able to move on past Camul T139 in either scenario, which is important because we have to plan for the possibility of bombing Tolosa down if we lose our spy or the mission fails.
mabraham
Deity
Suggestion for worker micro: the two workers on the silk need a plan. If they want to get the silk plantation next, then there's no really convenient road. But Engineering means they can put T138 on the grassland cottage SE of Paris, then T139 on the FP 2S of Orleans and then be in position to road and plantation on the incense.
mabraham
Deity
Updated test game to add Chichen Itza and remove barb galley.
Note that the axe in Camul has 5% fortification and 25% shock to approximate the 25% fortification in the real game, so results differ a bit. Worldbuildering to remove the shock and add C3+C4 might be better?
Note that the axe in Camul has 5% fortification and 25% shock to approximate the 25% fortification in the real game, so results differ a bit. Worldbuildering to remove the shock and add C3+C4 might be better?
According to the trade window, Brennus does have horses.
I'm assuming Adam wasn't able to take empty Duro on T137?
mabraham
Deity
OK edited.
The test game certainly had Adam in a captured Duro, and I seem to recall noting that the improvement of the nearby gems tile was different in the real and test saves, but I can't speak definitively about the status of Duro in the real game
With this plan, we could hit with a cat or two at high odds after the treb to get to 4/5 xp, and try again on Tolosa to work toward an Accuracy promotion.
And yes, we did take Duro! (details!) There is one turn to build a road on the Gems west of Duro. I went back to T135 and it still had 1t to road, so no worker there.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
On t136, Adam found Brennus' settler stack 1-N of Gems and a Worker on the Gems.
On t137, Adam captured Duro. I assume the settler stack moved to the Gems where a road has probably been completed or it moved 1-SE.
For t138, no units have moved. I probably should have moved Adam 1-E to see what is on the Gems and 1-N and 1-S of it, before uploading.
Sorry about not updating the test game completely before posting it. I did remove 2 Barbarian Galleys from the test game near our Galleys in t136. Maybe one spawned at end of t136 or t137.
Sun Tzu Wu
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,727
Well done on capturing Duro w/granary Sun Tzu Wu!!! Now we'll see if we can keep it...
Moving Forward
1. mabraham's idea to bombard Camulo T138, capture on T139 makes sense to me.
On attacking with the treb: I haven't checked the treb attack odds, but that would of course be a CRI promotion first. We could go with the 87% odds, but I envision that treb as crucial to our later success and sacrificing a unpromoteable chariot or two might be wiser, especially now that WastinTime got his wish and we won't be destroying the Dun in Bibracte. We'll need that treb not only for bombardment but also maybe to attack with. The treb can bombard at any HP but won't be able to attack again.
Losing a unit here and there is not necessarily bad, especially if those units are cheap and quick-moving chariots.
As mabraham says, capturing Camulo on T139 should not set back Tolosa, if all goes according to the normal odds.
If we do suicide two chariots, then it probably behooves us to replace them, so that our attack on Bibracte and Vienne runs smoothly.
2. Horse City
I would build the maceman as planned. It's needed. Instead of whipping the archer I would do this:
T138
Horse CIty: Build maceman, work deer, horses, Gmine
Orleans: Build pike, work fish, 2cott, sheep, 2Gmines (3 unhappy I think)
Pikeman I (DPF) moves to HC-2E
Bill (Orleans) moves to Horse City
Warrior 9 (Horse City) promotes to CI
What to do on T139 then depends on Brennus chariot. Probably it kills Warrior 9, in which case Pikeman I kills it. If the chariot goes to our deer tile, we'll lose that improvement. So be it. In any case, we then have:
T139
Horse City: 2whip mace
Bill moves back to Orleans (our mace will be born before Brennus chariot can attack HC)
Life goes on...
===
Notes:
1. @mabraham: Sun Tzu Wu's PPP already has a workable plan for the silk workers after building the plantation. He's prioritizing getting the incense connected asap for the +1. Take a looksee...
2. Cancel everything I said about the not-spawnbusted tiles north of Duro--Adam is spawnbusting them, of course. D'oh! That means Strauss is free to do as he pleases after the current mine.
3. I think Adam could very carefully (1 tile per turn) try to move to within two tiles of Isca. For instance, Isca-2NW would be ideal. Hopefully, he can discourage Isca from reinforcements to TOlosa. I wouldn't try to steal a worker if we don't know for sure it's safe.
4. Jacques (scout) can do a huge amount of barb galley spawnbusting on the middle island.
5. Lyons gets Confu on T140 if Emerillon waits at DrunkPigs-1NW and the Confu Miss boards on T139.
===
Learning by Hindsight
===
Keep up the good work, Sun Tzu Wu!!!
Moving Forward
1. mabraham's idea to bombard Camulo T138, capture on T139 makes sense to me.
Spoiler :
Losing a unit here and there is not necessarily bad, especially if those units are cheap and quick-moving chariots.
As mabraham says, capturing Camulo on T139 should not set back Tolosa, if all goes according to the normal odds.
If we do suicide two chariots, then it probably behooves us to replace them, so that our attack on Bibracte and Vienne runs smoothly.
2. Horse City
I would build the maceman as planned. It's needed. Instead of whipping the archer I would do this:
T138
Horse CIty: Build maceman, work deer, horses, Gmine
Orleans: Build pike, work fish, 2cott, sheep, 2Gmines (3 unhappy I think)
Pikeman I (DPF) moves to HC-2E
Bill (Orleans) moves to Horse City
Warrior 9 (Horse City) promotes to CI
What to do on T139 then depends on Brennus chariot. Probably it kills Warrior 9, in which case Pikeman I kills it. If the chariot goes to our deer tile, we'll lose that improvement. So be it. In any case, we then have:
T139
Horse City: 2whip mace
Bill moves back to Orleans (our mace will be born before Brennus chariot can attack HC)
Life goes on...
===
Notes:
1. @mabraham: Sun Tzu Wu's PPP already has a workable plan for the silk workers after building the plantation. He's prioritizing getting the incense connected asap for the +1
. Take a looksee...2. Cancel everything I said about the not-spawnbusted tiles north of Duro--Adam is spawnbusting them, of course. D'oh! That means Strauss is free to do as he pleases after the current mine.
3. I think Adam could very carefully (1 tile per turn) try to move to within two tiles of Isca. For instance, Isca-2NW would be ideal. Hopefully, he can discourage Isca from reinforcements to TOlosa. I wouldn't try to steal a worker if we don't know for sure it's safe.
4. Jacques (scout) can do a huge amount of barb galley spawnbusting on the middle island.
5. Lyons gets Confu on T140 if Emerillon waits at DrunkPigs-1NW and the Confu Miss boards on T139.
===
Learning by Hindsight
Spoiler :
Keep up the good work, Sun Tzu Wu!!!
mabraham
Deity
Happy with LC's suggestions, particularly for the HC zone, and STW original incense plan.
Treb survival odds of 87% was with CR1. If healing means it can't attack Tolosa so that it's at full strength for Bibracte, then that's the price of a shoe-string war. If it takes heavy damage at 87% against Camul, then the maceman at 70% we'd otherwise have used against Camul would probably be dead.
Treb survival odds of 87% was with CR1. If healing means it can't attack Tolosa so that it's at full strength for Bibracte, then that's the price of a shoe-string war. If it takes heavy damage at 87% against Camul, then the maceman at 70% we'd otherwise have used against Camul would probably be dead.
I'm not sure what options we had in Horse city when the chariot tele'd north other than Archer. With only 3 pop, no other better military unit was available.
The archer in Horse City and the 2 pikes coming from either side will checkmate that Brennus chariot. It is unfortunate that it tele'd north but we have to roll with the punches.
Moving the Orleans garrison and sacrificing a warrior to buy a turn for Horse City mace? That would work I suppose. Orleans would have to suffer some major happiness penalties. If the warrior died, then Horse City would have to go without a garrison unit too. I'm happy with 2 pikes and an archer. No one should die and we'll have an extra garrison unit for our fish city or Brennus conquest. Those pikes will hard counter Brennus horse units later, especially if he miraculously gets Horseback Riding if we are forced to ceasefire early because his main army showed up.
**Edit** Brennus should lose horses when we take Tolosa unless he gets more from the south. So pikes not as strong as I thought in the longer term. They might have more potential when we attack Ramesses later.
Adam get within two tiles of Isca? He will get crushed by an axe or combat chariot. I can't see us really using him if he stays a warrior unless he can steal a worker on a jungle tile and we are ready to pray.
I like the idea of the treb trashing Camulo on T139 first if it keeps the rest of our units from dying. I'm not eager to suicide chariots early in the war. We can use them after the treb attack against a weakened archer and axe maybe to allow the Macemen and catapults to head to Tolosa sooner.
Should Paris build a market after the Maceman? Or is the war more important than 18gpt?
It seems our gold is dwindling and 25% more gold from our super capital will be needed to get Education done.
The archer in Horse City and the 2 pikes coming from either side will checkmate that Brennus chariot. It is unfortunate that it tele'd north but we have to roll with the punches.
Moving the Orleans garrison and sacrificing a warrior to buy a turn for Horse City mace? That would work I suppose. Orleans would have to suffer some major happiness penalties. If the warrior died, then Horse City would have to go without a garrison unit too. I'm happy with 2 pikes and an archer. No one should die and we'll have an extra garrison unit for our fish city or Brennus conquest. Those pikes will hard counter Brennus horse units later, especially if he miraculously gets Horseback Riding if we are forced to ceasefire early because his main army showed up.
**Edit** Brennus should lose horses when we take Tolosa unless he gets more from the south. So pikes not as strong as I thought in the longer term. They might have more potential when we attack Ramesses later.
Adam get within two tiles of Isca? He will get crushed by an axe or combat chariot. I can't see us really using him if he stays a warrior unless he can steal a worker on a jungle tile and we are ready to pray.
I like the idea of the treb trashing Camulo on T139 first if it keeps the rest of our units from dying. I'm not eager to suicide chariots early in the war. We can use them after the treb attack against a weakened archer and axe maybe to allow the Macemen and catapults to head to Tolosa sooner.
Should Paris build a market after the Maceman? Or is the war more important than 18gpt?
It seems our gold is dwindling and 25% more gold from our super capital will be needed to get Education done.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,727
I'm not sure about the odds, but I'm suggesting we sacrifice our two unpromotable chariots against the archer and the gallic. Then either Boudica or a CRI mace would have what odds against the axe?
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
I will determine a consensus plan tonight after a few more hours wait for further discussion. It will probably mainly consist of mabraham's plan for capturing Camulodunum t139 and LowtherCastle's plan for dealing with Brennus' vagabond Chariot t138. I also plan to move Adam cautiously east one turn until 2 plots from Isca as suggested by LowtherCastle assuming it gains more support among the Team's members. The same with other plans lacking unanimous support from members voicing their opinions.
Anyone agree that upgrading Adam to Maceman for 185W and sending it near Isca via Forest/Jungle is a good way to pin units down in Isca?
Note that our ideal Research slider is approaching 00% fast. We may want to build a Market in Paris as suggested by Kaitzilla as well as build several Courthouses in distant cities.
Sun Tzu
Anyone agree that upgrading Adam to Maceman for 185W and sending it near Isca via Forest/Jungle is a good way to pin units down in Isca?
Note that our ideal Research slider is approaching 00% fast. We may want to build a Market in Paris as suggested by Kaitzilla as well as build several Courthouses in distant cities.
Sun Tzu
mabraham
Deity
CR1 mace always picks out the axe, so it's only when we do significant damage to both gallic warrior *and* archer* with those two suicide chariots that we can start reaching the situation where the third or fourth chariot gets access to attacking the axeman, so the mace can clean out at very high odds whichever of the gallic warrior or archer remains with decent health (and then sometimes an archer must finish the job). So if the first chariot does no damage, then we are fairly low odds to achieve anything useful (since we still need to lose about 2 more chariots, and kill 3 units with the remaining mace, chariot and archers).
Attached is a test game. In 7 replicates, I bombed with the 5 cats and suicided the two 0XP chariots. Twice I did zero damage (and if this happens, I recommend walking away after the second chariot); of those, once I failed to even take the city. Twice I had one of the initial chariots live. Overall, I took the city 6 times (four times needing an archer to complete the task), lost the mace never, and lost 3-2-2-1-3-2-3 chariots in the process.
So I think there is a lot to be said for waiting a turn for the CR1 treb and then judging whether to throw away a 0XP chariot to ensure low damage on the remaining units.
mabraham
Deity
Cautious Adam is fine.
I'm skeptical... I'm really expecting the loss of Camul and trade routes to hurt Brennus hard, i.e. possibly STRIKE, so new units are really not on the cards. AFAIK the AI defends cities primarily on the basis of their value, rather than the threat to them, so a single mace doesn't present a significant challenge compared to our stack on Tolosa given that the AI surely values Tolosa higher.
A marketplace in Paris costs 120-pre OR hammers, and nets a maximum of 15 gold/turn from 100% gold slider. Building one gives up on espionage for Bibracte entirely (saving some of our gold pile, but perhaps costing time and units bombarding) but nobody seems to like my suggestion of a spy right now in Paris.
I'd definitely finish the mace in Paris now, and I'd probably get out another unit too. Now is the only time we can build units to get to the front in a timely fashion. That could easily be worth the ~30 gold we might lose via a delayed Market. Note that we'll be getting cash piles from looting, so we may not want a fast market, inasmuch as we won't be running 0% for a few turns more than it seems right now.
So yeah, some time during STW set a Market makes sense. Depends on the war news.
I'm skeptical about courthouses. Colony maintenance is negligible right now. Espionage points won't make a difference in time. The 3-4 gold/turn they might get right now for the 120 post-OR hammers isn't going to make a significant difference before we get to Edu (by which time some of them will be paying 5 gold/turn. I would only build them after forges and Confu are in place (unless the city is putting out fewer than 4 hammers/turn!) and I'd still prioritise missionaries, any settlers and the triremes ahead of courthouses. Even Confu buildings seem to me to provide more value (the hammers per turn snowball in a way that the gold and espionage per turn don't really achieve)
mabraham
Deity
We'd definitely want the market in Paris before Edu, though, because the phase where we build universities and Oxford will definitely be at 0% science!
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,727
Another thought to keep in mind for Camulo is that if we lose one or more battles, our cats might have excellent odds to knock those units down to the minimum. That saves our last maces damage and gives us a chance to get a cat or two up to accuracy by Bibracte.
I support an upgraded Adam. He should be able to get a free worker or two and/or kill a couple units. Remember you can move one tile and still upgrade that turn.
