SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Rate of EP [Per turn]
t0-5: 0 EP on us
t6-8: 2 EP on us
t9-t16: 1 EP on us
t17-t28: 2 EP on us
t29-t31: 3 EP on us
t32-present: EP on us is the same as the EP on him resulting in a consistent lead of EP by 53 points.
a
The longer we delay this, the less likely we are to be able to steal IW from Brennus as he will be overtaking us in EP soon enough. Also, Rams has no EP on us right now.
His EP increasing:
After founding Buddhism, he puts his EP slider up meaning he's automatically generating more EP than us. Secondly, to note is that EP is rounded down on the slider, so if commerce is generating him 1.2 EP, he will be getting a total of 5 EP per turn. This will still be 5 EP per turn if his commerce to EP is 1.9 for example. The sudden jump in increasing rate is probably due to this. As he starts getting more commerce, more of it gets converted to EP. So I'm sure a link can be found in between the dates he founds his second city and his EP will probably slightly increase somewhere around then, cottages starting to mature will also lead to a slow increase, etc..
t0-5: 0 EP on us
t6-8: 2 EP on us
t9-t16: 1 EP on us
t17-t28: 2 EP on us
t29-t31: 3 EP on us
t32-present: EP on us is the same as the EP on him resulting in a consistent lead of EP by 53 points.
a
The longer we delay this, the less likely we are to be able to steal IW from Brennus as he will be overtaking us in EP soon enough. Also, Rams has no EP on us right now.
His EP increasing:
After founding Buddhism, he puts his EP slider up meaning he's automatically generating more EP than us. Secondly, to note is that EP is rounded down on the slider, so if commerce is generating him 1.2 EP, he will be getting a total of 5 EP per turn. This will still be 5 EP per turn if his commerce to EP is 1.9 for example. The sudden jump in increasing rate is probably due to this. As he starts getting more commerce, more of it gets converted to EP. So I'm sure a link can be found in between the dates he founds his second city and his EP will probably slightly increase somewhere around then, cottages starting to mature will also lead to a slow increase, etc..
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Does this imply he met Ramesses on turn 9?
If so, how many units did the AI start with?
If so, how many units did the AI start with?
That is a possibility. However, he must have met someone on t0 because he has been generating EP off the bat in 4000 BC.
If it was not Ramesses, it must have been someone else leading us to the possibility of kcd putting his scout on another continent but that itself would make little sense unless he's done the same with Ramesses. But we cannot tell until we are able to see his demographics.
If it was not Ramesses, it must have been someone else leading us to the possibility of kcd putting his scout on another continent but that itself would make little sense unless he's done the same with Ramesses. But we cannot tell until we are able to see his demographics.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
How do you know he has been generating EP since turn 0?
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
WorldBuilder files can be edited to introduce AI to AI (or AI to player) without any need to move units around, prior to game start.
PR could also have focused on expansion, every city generates 2cpt.
They have submitted another save, and their score & power jump sharply.
A little sloppy testing:
- the difference in the EP points at the beginning is purely down to us not settling on t0.
- if we concentrate EP on an AI, they will match it.
- if you then take EP off an AI, they still put it on you at the same rate as before (they don't decrease it)
- if when you first meet an AI, and they are already putting EP on someone else, if you don't put any EP on them, they will not put any on us.
I suggest we keep our EP's on Brennus.
They have submitted another save, and their score & power jump sharply.
A little sloppy testing:
- the difference in the EP points at the beginning is purely down to us not settling on t0.
- if we concentrate EP on an AI, they will match it.
- if you then take EP off an AI, they still put it on you at the same rate as before (they don't decrease it)
- if when you first meet an AI, and they are already putting EP on someone else, if you don't put any EP on them, they will not put any on us.
I suggest we keep our EP's on Brennus.
Oh that's right. They're beating us in culture despite being a few turns behind us! Clearly we have room to improve! Let's pick it up guys! 
EP on Brennus is completely logical and the best way forward. We have no idea where Ramesses even is! What do you guys think of using EP to steal some techs to avoid the WFYABTA limit early on before we kill them? Like we could steal polytheism for example, a cheap tech that isn't worth wasting beakers researching but you need it for Lit for example.
Edit: I would hazard a guess that PR stole IW! It increases the power rating, and doesn't require wasting hammers this early on, on stuff like moai which was my initial thought or even building a bunch of chariots. But a short turnset implies a short goal which is v. important. This could be stealing IW, or even capturing a barb city.
EP on Brennus is completely logical and the best way forward. We have no idea where Ramesses even is! What do you guys think of using EP to steal some techs to avoid the WFYABTA limit early on before we kill them? Like we could steal polytheism for example, a cheap tech that isn't worth wasting beakers researching but you need it for Lit for example.
Edit: I would hazard a guess that PR stole IW! It increases the power rating, and doesn't require wasting hammers this early on, on stuff like moai which was my initial thought or even building a bunch of chariots. But a short turnset implies a short goal which is v. important. This could be stealing IW, or even capturing a barb city.
Happy to steal techs if we can, but I doubt it will happen.
We will have to use all our EP's and who knows how many turns of 100% EP slider to get IW.
After that happens we can assess the next potential use of EP's.
Our short term tech goals would have us going for Great Lib asap, which will require Poly in the very near future.
Here are the required techs for those goals, I propose getting Alpha after Lit. Hopefully one of the AI researches it for us by then.
Goals
Great Lib - requires Poly, Aesthetics & Literature.
Astro bulb (with GS from GLib) - requires Maths, Calendar, IW, Compass, Machinery, Optics
We will have to use all our EP's and who knows how many turns of 100% EP slider to get IW.
After that happens we can assess the next potential use of EP's.
Our short term tech goals would have us going for Great Lib asap, which will require Poly in the very near future.
Here are the required techs for those goals, I propose getting Alpha after Lit. Hopefully one of the AI researches it for us by then.
Goals
Great Lib - requires Poly, Aesthetics & Literature.
Astro bulb (with GS from GLib) - requires Maths, Calendar, IW, Compass, Machinery, Optics
With the number of EP's we have, no turns will be required to adjust the EP slider provided the spy is fortified for five turns. So for the sake of convenience, we can send two or three spies over to Brennus since one or two can fail but three is very unlikely. If the second survives, we steal another tech from him
We can go Writing->Alpha->(Steal IW and hopefully Poly)->Aesthetics->Lit
But I do also like your idea a bit better. We can skip Alpha for a while since we don't have the advantage of tech brokering with lots of AI. But that will delay us building Spies and stealing IW.
Are you sure about this? I thought it was the ratio that determined the cost.
There is a base cost, x for stealing techs. Then there is a multiplier which I believe depends on how much EP the AI spends on you. If you go on the EP screen, it will show you the cost in brackets. In this instance, right now, it'll cost us 113% so 13% extra AFTER we take into account all the discounts and stuff.
Next,we look at the distance cost (we can assume that to be +30% in a worst case), the connected to trade route discount of -20% followed by fortifying the spy for five turns which is -50%.
People honestly under estimate the power of espionage
I think a hybrid science and espionage economy would be really powerful on the highest levels To give you an example regarding the above:
Spoiler :
Try Fn+ F12 (or if that doesn't work, try using an on screen keyboard if you can have that up whilst playing Civ somehow)
Is that the test save you are looking at or the actual game? If it is the test, I can upload an unpaused test for you
The ratio makes a big difference.
Here are 2 screenshots, the only difference is that I infiltrated the city with a Great Spy. The base tech stealing cost drops to about 35% of what it was, from 177 to 64.
edit
I agree that espionage is much unloved in Civ4, and not usually exploited fully. Kakumeikas use of it has been masterful in the last 2 sg's
I was just making the point that we will surely need to use slider on Brennus to steal anything
Here are 2 screenshots, the only difference is that I infiltrated the city with a Great Spy. The base tech stealing cost drops to about 35% of what it was, from 177 to 64.
Spoiler :
edit
I agree that espionage is much unloved in Civ4, and not usually exploited fully. Kakumeikas use of it has been masterful in the last 2 sg's
I was just making the point that we will surely need to use slider on Brennus to steal anything
The ratio makes a big difference.
Here are 2 screenshots, the only difference is that I infiltrated the city with a Great Spy. The base tech stealing cost drops to about 40% of what it was, from 177 to 74.
Spoiler :
The ratio doesn't seem to have an effect now that you mention it
You infiltrated one AI but the cost drops for all of them
Clearly the percentage cost is dependant on the total EP a team has rather than the EP on one person. I've just tested this myself. Put a spy in an AI city on another continent that hasn't been met, check the cost. Next turn, infiltrate near AI's city and the cost will drop for all AIs.Anyway, the cost is irrelevant (almost) in this game because it only costs us like 13% extra anyway. after we take a probable 50% discount.
