ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
How much will Astronomy really help our GLH powered trade routes? Should we rethink beelining Astronomy?
SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Colossus expires with Astronomy. Delaying Astronomy delays the expiration.
Trystero
Deity
It doesn't expire for quite some time if we don't actively pursue Astro
I personally think it is the stronger move because of our horizontal expansion AND because it puts us towards the lib path.
This seems like you are suggesting we should abandon the GLH strategy, where we beeline Astro for overseas trade routes. I'm not crazy about a Colossus-based strategy for two reasons. 1. The increased commerce depends on us working water tiles, and we are not working many water tiles now. (Although cities those one tile islands will obviously have to work many.) 2. It obsoletes earlier in tech tree, and obsoletes with a tech (Astro) that would be highly beneficial.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Well, he didn't say "as soon" in his post... so I think you're editing, rather than quoting 
Yeah, that's what I meant 
Anyway, in a test save, I worldbuildered us Astro and the world map and OB with everyone. Our commerce from TR's increased by 6 per city. Working one water tile with Colossus (self sustaining with 2 food lighthouse) gets us 3 commerce so growing our cities an extra two sizes pretty much gets us the benefit of GLH TR's. The real benefits of GLH however will kick in when our cities are large enough imo.
I am not suggesting we abandon it, I think that since Colossus expires faster, we can get the benefits immediately (commerce straight away rather than waiting until Astro), we also get Caste, Pacifism (crucial for generating GP's for non Phi), found a religion guaranteeing us 3 shrines. I see lots more benefits to it really.
Anyway, in a test save, I worldbuildered us Astro and the world map and OB with everyone. Our commerce from TR's increased by 6 per city. Working one water tile with Colossus (self sustaining with 2 food lighthouse) gets us 3 commerce so growing our cities an extra two sizes pretty much gets us the benefit of GLH TR's. The real benefits of GLH however will kick in when our cities are large enough imo.
I am not suggesting we abandon it, I think that since Colossus expires faster, we can get the benefits immediately (commerce straight away rather than waiting until Astro), we also get Caste, Pacifism (crucial for generating GP's for non Phi), found a religion guaranteeing us 3 shrines. I see lots more benefits to it really.
Trystero
Deity
Our cities cannot share trade routes with the same foreign city. So, only one of our cities can have a trade route with Memphis. The more foreign cities we discover, the more foreign trade routes we can connect with our cities. Thus, the sooner we discover the other AIs, the more profitable our GLH trade routes become.
edit: x-post with Revent. To clarify, I am not arguing against building the Colossus, I am arguing against delaying Astro.
edit2: And Revent is correct in that we need to grow our cities to maximize trade route benefit.
You are right. I rushed the post and neglected to clearly indicate FTFY. And still it was late, crossposted, and unnecesary.Well, he didn't say "as soon" in his post... so I think you're editing, rather than quoting
I think even if we only have the Colossus unobsoleted for 40 turns it's still worth it to build. We'll spend 10 turns in a city building it. And work, with our increasing number of coastal cities, quite a few coastal/sea tiles. I think it's worth it to build the Colossus and beeline Astro.
I'll also take this time to suggest an idea that could be a lot more powerful than even GLH TR's but is kind of crazy
We don't research Astro for as long as possible!
We go down our normal route, use Lib to get Medicine, get to Corps and found Sushi. Spread sushi to ONLY coastal cities and let them grow to max size to like 20 or something. The extra food from sushi should offset any sickness and allow cities to grow to really high sizes. Work all coastal tiles for net gain from Colossus. This will skyrocket our research quite a bit and I believe moreso than GLH. It is going to be VERY micro intensive however but the results of it are fascinating! However, there is a risk that comes with it, which is that we could lose the game but if it works, I have a strong belief that we will fly through research in the late game!
We don't research Astro for as long as possible!
We go down our normal route, use Lib to get Medicine, get to Corps and found Sushi. Spread sushi to ONLY coastal cities and let them grow to max size to like 20 or something. The extra food from sushi should offset any sickness and allow cities to grow to really high sizes. Work all coastal tiles for net gain from Colossus. This will skyrocket our research quite a bit and I believe moreso than GLH. It is going to be VERY micro intensive however but the results of it are fascinating! However, there is a risk that comes with it, which is that we could lose the game
but if it works, I have a strong belief that we will fly through research in the late game!It will really help. I will play some sort of a similar game right now and check for the effects.
I don't think so. But I'll check.
We need Astronomy for Physics, so we need it for Future Tech 1. So not obsoleting TC isn't an option. 
Yes, we should do some mathematical analysis.
I like founding Tao and ensuring first to Liberalism. But I often settle for Nationalism. If we really think we can get Radio or something else, then maybe there isn't a rush to Philosophy. OTOH the "bulb Currency argument" applies to whatever we take with Liberalism: the sooner we get the bonus tech, the longer the bonus tech applies and the sooner we get all techs and the sooner we can trade Philosophy/Education with the AIs.
As stated, lots of Island and Coastal cities empower the Colossus. And it utilizes our Industrious trait.
What about The Parthenon? It would help since we want a lot of GP.
We can get Aesthetics in four turns so I will turn Research back on. [I should have last turn. Or wait for chopped Commerce Library?]
Yes, we should do some mathematical analysis.
I like founding Tao and ensuring first to Liberalism. But I often settle for Nationalism. If we really think we can get Radio or something else, then maybe there isn't a rush to Philosophy. OTOH the "bulb Currency argument" applies to whatever we take with Liberalism: the sooner we get the bonus tech, the longer the bonus tech applies and the sooner we get all techs and the sooner we can trade Philosophy/Education with the AIs.
As stated, lots of Island and Coastal cities empower the Colossus. And it utilizes our Industrious trait.
What about The Parthenon? It would help since we want a lot of GP.
We can get Aesthetics in four turns so I will turn Research back on. [I should have last turn. Or wait for chopped Commerce Library?]
We need Astronomy for Physics, so we need it for Future Tech 1. So not obsoleting TC isn't an option.
Yes, we should do some mathematical analysis.
I like founding Tao and ensuring first to Liberalism. But I often settle for Nationalism. If we really think we can get Radio or something else, then maybe there isn't a rush to Philosophy. OTOH the "bulb Currency argument" applies to whatever we take with Liberalism: the sooner we get the bonus tech, the longer the bonus tech applies and the sooner we get all techs and the sooner we can trade Philosophy/Education with the AIs.
As stated, lots of Island and Coastal cities empower the Colossus. And it utilizes our Industrious trait.
What about The Parthenon? It would help since we want a lot of GP.
We can get Aesthetics in four turns so I will turn Research back on. [I should have last turn. Or wait for chopped Commerce Library?]
Oh of course, once again, silly wording on my part
We can delay it for as long as possible of course. Parthenon would be very helpful, I agree.
Even the GA pollution won't be frowned on since it could be used for a GA or emergency culture bomb end game Mathematical analysis be it! I'll get some number crunching started tonight after dinner
The Colossus will pay off whether or not we beeline Astro. However, I feel that beelining Astro is not the optimal choice. I guess we could do a test save of a game where in one game, we beeline astro and another we don't.
It's not just the extra 6 commerce per city that is what we will get by Astro. We also need to bear in mind that a city that grows an extra two sizes will give us the same commerce as a GLH TR with Colossus. Island cities will be giving us way more commerce than GLH as well. Also, we get the addition of more great people for bulbing (speeding up our game by the x turns saved), we get bur which is +50% commerce for all commerce in the capital, and 50% production bonus which is crucial in pumping out some more wonders than we would normally not be able to. It is ALSO on the path to Lib which is never a bad thing to be honest. We get to found Taoism which ensures three religions on our continent. Imagine a vassals shrine city flipping over at an inconvenient time on the other continent...That would be trouble. Caste also gets us the opportunity to get a GM quickly so we can found Sushi ASAP.
OK, here are some pictures of the places I visited on my trip last night.
These are some screenshots I took on turn 101. They are pretty much OBE by the posted save.
We arent afraid of your Chariots. (Spearmen are another matter).
Attitude
CAUTION, Barbarian approaching
Tech
Paris
Production
Cities by the Bay
Barb City Brennus would be happy to perform the coup-de-gras
HummBaby (go Giants!)
Last Place according to Gibbon
These are some screenshots I took on turn 101. They are pretty much OBE by the posted save.
Spoiler :
We arent afraid of your Chariots. (Spearmen are another matter).
Spoiler :
Attitude
Spoiler :
CAUTION, Barbarian approaching
Spoiler :
Tech
Spoiler :
Paris
Spoiler :
Production
Spoiler :
Cities by the Bay
Spoiler :
Barb City Brennus would be happy to perform the coup-de-gras
Spoiler :
HummBaby (go Giants!)
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Last Place according to Gibbon
Spoiler :
350 BC PPP draft turns 101 - ~108
This isn’t ready to play. We want more than we can build immediately. We need to decide priorities and city builds (and big strategy).
We want Settlers, Wonders, Temples, Monasteries, Libraries, Forges, Chariots, Triremes, Galleys, archers and another spy
--------------------------
General Strategy
Satisfy all game conditions in shortest time.
Build coastal cities, Contact other AIs asap for GLH commerce = Bulb Astronomy (avoid Code of Laws)
alternatively build Colossus, and bulb Philosophy and Printing Press before Astronomy
Get our continent to ourselves later, for now buddy up to Brennus
Radio or Medicine from Liberalism
Culture and Domination victories
Special Conditions status: 1 of 10
------
Turn 101
Goals: stay out of war w Celts, take barbarian city, steal IW, build more cities, explore more
Beg Archery at Pleased; Steal Mono & IW
Tech: Aesthetics at 0% until library built in Commerce, then 100%; then 0% for Literature (until can research at 100%)
Great Person: Next one expected in 25 turns
Diplomacy: Accept Brennus demands; do not accept Ramesses demands
Cancel trades to Brennus when pleased? Wait until we need the health.
Begging: beg for archery when we Brennus is pleased w us
Espionage: all on Brennus, no slider (unless needed for steal); Spy to Tolosa, wait 5 turns, steal Mono. Rinse & repeat for IW [why did neil suggest Camelodunum? Tolosa is closer and cheaper].
City Builds [we want Settlers, Wonders, Temples, Monasteries, Libraries, Forges, and Units oh my]
Paris: Academy, Library, Forge
GPF: Settlers, switch to warrior(s) as needed to grow; Colossus??
Production: chariot to explore N, settler, Galley/Trireme/Colossus/Parthenon (s)
Commerce: Library (chopped), forge (whipped at 2 unhappies)
Clams: chariot (archers if possible)
Barb City: Granary (chop plains hill), library
East Fish: Workboat (chop GH), Granary (whip), then?
Zhou: 2 pop whip warrior, Granary (overflow and chop); library
Zhou has 2 population now, but assuming 3 archers, we need 6 chariots. There are 3 by Barb City (2 need to heal) and 1 in Fish City. Building chariots in Paris and Clams which can go here. I would like to build a chariot in Production since its last chariot went S to capture the Barb City.
One galley is enough for now for ferrying. Should we build a trireme instead?
Also need 2nd spy (tbr) and triremes and settlers and archers
Where to build Temples? Monasteries?
Micro:
assign cottage to Paris so it can work it rather than ocean
Units:
WB6 explore W as far as possible, then explore northern isles, go N, then SE
WB3 Go South young boat: head to SW to explore those islands
Warrior2 (woody) explore South Continent, Rameses land and look for Brennus stack
Chariots: kill barb on island; wounded units heal; gather on island to take Zhou (need 6) explore unexplored part of peninsula and N of Production
Spy: go to Tolosa wait 5 turns and steal IW, steal mono first iff IW not available
Worker1: cottages for Commerce
Worker2: chop workboat, cottage FPs, mine PH, mine grass hill
Worker 3: chop library for Commerce, cottage Paris grass, later roads on gems and pigs
Worker4: camp Production deer, then?
Worker5 (GPF): camp GPF deer, cottage paris
Workers fromTeoi: chop granary, build roads, pasture pigs, mine PH, cottage over farms
Settlers: new cities: at least two on islands, SW of the of the southern jungle sugar, 1W2S of Barb city's pigs (on the plains hill), and on the desert below "1/3 of a road" are both good ideas. [need to establish order] [reassess after more exploring]
Stop Conditions: Brennus DOW on us (this cancels most of the PPP! Trade for archery from Rameses); meet another AI; need a decision or advice
Pause Conditions: something needs to be discussed
Set duration: 10-15 turns, to a good stopping/handoff point;
Questions
See various alternatives above
What did I forget?
Whip? where for what?
Trade for archery from Rameses for Meditation (or is WFYABTA not worth it –thus the begging) do if beg fails?
(forgot to ask before) What to record/snapshot/save each turn (didn’t save game each turn – sh I copy over the autosaves before starting?
This isn’t ready to play. We want more than we can build immediately. We need to decide priorities and city builds (and big strategy).
We want Settlers, Wonders, Temples, Monasteries, Libraries, Forges, Chariots, Triremes, Galleys, archers and another spy
--------------------------
General Strategy
Satisfy all game conditions in shortest time.
Build coastal cities, Contact other AIs asap for GLH commerce = Bulb Astronomy (avoid Code of Laws)
alternatively build Colossus, and bulb Philosophy and Printing Press before Astronomy
Get our continent to ourselves later, for now buddy up to Brennus
Radio or Medicine from Liberalism
Culture and Domination victories
Special Conditions status: 1 of 10
------
Turn 101
Goals: stay out of war w Celts, take barbarian city, steal IW, build more cities, explore more
Beg Archery at Pleased; Steal Mono & IW
Tech: Aesthetics at 0% until library built in Commerce, then 100%; then 0% for Literature (until can research at 100%)
Great Person: Next one expected in 25 turns
Diplomacy: Accept Brennus demands; do not accept Ramesses demands
Cancel trades to Brennus when pleased? Wait until we need the health.
Begging: beg for archery when we Brennus is pleased w us
Espionage: all on Brennus, no slider (unless needed for steal); Spy to Tolosa, wait 5 turns, steal Mono. Rinse & repeat for IW [why did neil suggest Camelodunum? Tolosa is closer and cheaper].
City Builds [we want Settlers, Wonders, Temples, Monasteries, Libraries, Forges, and Units oh my]
Paris: Academy, Library, Forge
GPF: Settlers, switch to warrior(s) as needed to grow; Colossus??
Production: chariot to explore N, settler, Galley/Trireme/Colossus/Parthenon (s)
Commerce: Library (chopped), forge (whipped at 2 unhappies)
Clams: chariot (archers if possible)
Barb City: Granary (chop plains hill), library
East Fish: Workboat (chop GH), Granary (whip), then?
Zhou: 2 pop whip warrior, Granary (overflow and chop); library
Zhou has 2 population now, but assuming 3 archers, we need 6 chariots. There are 3 by Barb City (2 need to heal) and 1 in Fish City. Building chariots in Paris and Clams which can go here. I would like to build a chariot in Production since its last chariot went S to capture the Barb City.
One galley is enough for now for ferrying. Should we build a trireme instead?
Also need 2nd spy (tbr) and triremes and settlers and archers
Where to build Temples? Monasteries?
Micro:
assign cottage to Paris so it can work it rather than ocean
Units:
WB6 explore W as far as possible, then explore northern isles, go N, then SE
WB3 Go South young boat: head to SW to explore those islands
Warrior2 (woody) explore South Continent, Rameses land and look for Brennus stack
Chariots: kill barb on island; wounded units heal; gather on island to take Zhou (need 6) explore unexplored part of peninsula and N of Production
Spy: go to Tolosa wait 5 turns and steal IW, steal mono first iff IW not available
Worker1: cottages for Commerce
Worker2: chop workboat, cottage FPs, mine PH, mine grass hill
Worker 3: chop library for Commerce, cottage Paris grass, later roads on gems and pigs
Worker4: camp Production deer, then?
Worker5 (GPF): camp GPF deer, cottage paris
Workers fromTeoi: chop granary, build roads, pasture pigs, mine PH, cottage over farms
Settlers: new cities: at least two on islands, SW of the of the southern jungle sugar, 1W2S of Barb city's pigs (on the plains hill), and on the desert below "1/3 of a road" are both good ideas. [need to establish order] [reassess after more exploring]
Stop Conditions: Brennus DOW on us (this cancels most of the PPP! Trade for archery from Rameses); meet another AI; need a decision or advice
Pause Conditions: something needs to be discussed
Set duration: 10-15 turns, to a good stopping/handoff point;
Questions
See various alternatives above
What did I forget?
Whip? where for what?
Trade for archery from Rameses for Meditation (or is WFYABTA not worth it –thus the begging) do if beg fails?
(forgot to ask before) What to record/snapshot/save each turn (didn’t save game each turn – sh I copy over the autosaves before starting?
SteelHorse
Deity
Good job DH
A couple of questions.
1. Have we come across a Brennus stack?
2. On stealing Mono, is the cost in EP (84ept at 100%) + the cost 1-2 spies (40
each) less than the 2 turns it would take to self research Mono? If we have nothing better to use accumulated the EP for than steal mono, that is one thing. But if we would have move the slider to 100% EP for 2 turns to get the necessary EP then it does not seem to make economic sense.
3. How does a forge in commerce, a low hammer city where we plan on working cottages and not doing much whipping pay for itself? At least for now when it only nets 1.
4. On Colossus, how many water tiles do we expect to work between now and Astro. I would have thought Astro is a priority for overseas trade routes and Salons. Earlier Salons is a research priority item. Research is the limiting factor for this game.
A couple of questions.
1. Have we come across a Brennus stack?
2. On stealing Mono, is the cost in EP (84ept at 100%) + the cost 1-2 spies (40
each) less than the 2 turns it would take to self research Mono? If we have nothing better to use accumulated the EP for than steal mono, that is one thing. But if we would have move the slider to 100% EP for 2 turns to get the necessary EP then it does not seem to make economic sense.3. How does a forge in commerce, a low hammer city where we plan on working cottages and not doing much whipping pay for itself? At least for now when it only nets 1
.4. On Colossus, how many water tiles do we expect to work between now and Astro. I would have thought Astro is a priority for overseas trade routes and Salons. Earlier Salons is a research priority item. Research is the limiting factor for this game.
Not really.
The axeman, archer stack that was by our borders a while ago was near our borders on turn 96 and moved toward Clams and then moved away. There is an archer near Teoi. City garrisons of a single axeman. That's about it. When Clams was empty I was worried about the axe/archer.
Woody is headed toward Brennus land, he was going to cut across country rather than taking the road, but maybe he should stay on the road for more chance of finding a Celt Stack.
Note, I have updated Posts 994 & 995.
994 are the screen shots I took.
995 is new PPP - No content changes here, just bolded headers and put questions in purple.
994 are the screen shots I took.
995 is new PPP - No content changes here, just bolded headers and put questions in purple.
I agree with most of that, except delaying Astro. I haven't had time to do a proper analysis, too busy working. Sorry. Will have a better chance tomorow evening, but I don't expect us to wait for me. I very much want more cities, I would settle all of the offshore locations that have at least 1 food resource.
Happy to be a passenger regarding the spy, you guys know more about espionage than me.
I cannot accept that delaying Astro is anything but a bad idea, even by 1 turn.
Trade routes are already bringing in as many coins as ALL of the tiles we are working. We have gold, cottages, lots of seafood, so we are working a lot of coins, but trade routed bring in even more.
Trade route income is calculated on Population and DIstance. Astro trade routes will be crazy.
Happy to be a passenger regarding the spy, you guys know more about espionage than me.
I cannot accept that delaying Astro is anything but a bad idea, even by 1 turn.
Trade routes are already bringing in as many coins as ALL of the tiles we are working. We have gold, cottages, lots of seafood, so we are working a lot of coins, but trade routed bring in even more.
Trade route income is calculated on Population and DIstance. Astro trade routes will be crazy.
Brian Shanahan
Permanoob
Great job Benginal!
Agreed.
Yes. Hopefully there is enough jungle that Brennus will research it soon.
I agree with this also. We need Hunting for the deer and Poly for Literature.
I've updated the roster, yet again:
- ChrisShaffer - (t0-31)
- neilmeister - (t32-57)
- Trystero - (t58-72)
- Revent - (t73-81)
- Benginal - (t82-95) - just played
- SteelHorse - skipped
- vra379971 - currently MIA
- Deckhand - UP!
- Brian Shanahan
Deckhand you are up! Brian, I think I remember you saying you couldn't play until the end of the month. If this is the case, Chris will be on deck.
I PMed vra a couple of days ago, but haven't heard anything.
Edit: x-post with Benginal and Neil. Sorry, Ben I didn't mean imply your turnset was over, but this seems like a natural stopping point. Let me know if you do want to continue.
I'm ok for playing. Even an Irishman can't spread a weekend's drinking out a whole month!
As regards the match it was a draw, but we won the fight
