Trystero
Deity
I was talking to neil!!!
The cost does decrease up to a maximum of 50% after 5 turns!! Apologies for confusions.
Perhaps you should use the quote function for replies. I'm old and easily confused.
SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Perhaps you should use the quote function for replies. I'm old and easily confused.
Trystero
Deity
Could we declare war on Ramesses, capture a coastal city, and then extort CoL for peace? Assuming Brennus hasn't wiped him out by then?
I'm still iffy about declaring on Ramesses. We want him alive.
Let's wait until we have 100% to do both maths and calendar whilst researching CoL via our scientists. If we end up trading for CoL, the AI will look at the beakers we have invested.
I'm still for stealing maths. If it saves us 100 commerce, I'm all for it. So really, what we are comparing is saving 100 commerce with a risk of 30ish% of losing 40 hammers. Diplo bonus doesn't count because it decays so fast and it might not even occur.
Let's wait until we have 100% to do both maths and calendar whilst researching CoL via our scientists. If we end up trading for CoL, the AI will look at the beakers we have invested.
I'm still for stealing maths. If it saves us 100 commerce, I'm all for it.
So really, what we are comparing is saving 100 commerce with a risk of 30ish% of losing 40 hammers. Diplo bonus doesn't count because it decays so fast and it might not even occur.Let's see our tech rate at the point of Astro before deciding whether we want a single or double bulb although I already know my vote (unless our tech rate is appalling).
Edit: @Trystero, we want to avoid fully researching CoL for the Astro bulb. I was only pointing to putting beakers into it as a placeholder whilst we wait to steal it since investing beakers into maths wouldn't make the EP cost cheaper.
Edit: @Trystero, we want to avoid fully researching CoL for the Astro bulb. I was only pointing to putting beakers into it as a placeholder whilst we wait to steal it since investing beakers into maths wouldn't make the EP cost cheaper.
Trystero
Deity
Yes, but given the price for peace that neil discovered, I'm assuming he might not be alive for much longer.
The incentive for doing math first would be the extra production from chops. If we don't have any chops planned however I am fine with saving up and researching both.
I'm still for stealing maths. If it saves us 100 commerce, I'm all for it.
Stealing math might delay chops, as I mentioned above. I presume we would want the full 5 turn stationary spy discount (or close to it). I'm not opposed to stealing, but I'd have to look at the save to see how things work out. I'm not even sure where our spies are at the moment.
Yeah, however, looking at the save, I saw very few places that needed chops (if any actually) which is why I'm fine with the delay if it happens.
One of our spies is already in Brennus's city.
Perhaps we may be able to bribe Ramesses to peace? Sometimes I have seen that working..Plus, I don't think we have the time to launch a small invasion at the moment. It'll take far too long for our stack to reach! However, if we let Brennus kill Rams, he will most likely build all the shrines for us.
One of our spies is already in Brennus's city.
Perhaps we may be able to bribe Ramesses to peace? Sometimes I have seen that working..Plus, I don't think we have the time to launch a small invasion at the moment. It'll take far too long for our stack to reach! However, if we let Brennus kill Rams, he will most likely build all the shrines for us.
sounds good to me. Should we reassign any scientists?
And you get the same diplo malus for just getting caught walking thru his territoryI'm still for stealing maths. If it saves us 100 commerce, I'm all for it.
Ram will say "I'd love to, you need to talk to Brennus".Perhaps we may be able to bribe Ramesses to peace? Sometimes I have seen that working..Plus, I don't think we have the time to launch a small invasion at the moment. It'll take far too long for our stack to reach! However, if we let Brennus kill Rams, he will most likely build all the shrines for us.
I agree we would prefer if Ramesses lived, but we might not have a say in this.
Ramesses switched back to Slavery, so he should be whipping Archers like crazy.
I'm not sold at all on stealing Maths. I would like to see some data. Here is an attempt:
Tech stealing from Brennus needs 707 EP's, before any discounts.
We have 139 EP's, and can generate them sustainably at 30%, which is 53 a turn. Obviously we would not be getting research apart from scientists or growing our treasury.
Assuming a 50% discount, for waiting 5 turns, then the cost is reduced to 350 EP's, and we will get that many in 4 turns. The spy would have to wait for 5 turns to get the max discount.
Compare that to 3 turns to manually research it. 2 at 0%, 1 at 100%
Have I got these numbers wrong? Please correct me if I have.
edit: and the spy can fail!
Ramesses switched back to Slavery, so he should be whipping Archers like crazy.
I'm not sold at all on stealing Maths. I would like to see some data. Here is an attempt:
Tech stealing from Brennus needs 707 EP's, before any discounts.
We have 139 EP's, and can generate them sustainably at 30%, which is 53 a turn. Obviously we would not be getting research apart from scientists or growing our treasury.
Assuming a 50% discount, for waiting 5 turns, then the cost is reduced to 350 EP's, and we will get that many in 4 turns. The spy would have to wait for 5 turns to get the max discount.
Compare that to 3 turns to manually research it. 2 at 0%, 1 at 100%
Have I got these numbers wrong? Please correct me if I have.
edit: and the spy can fail!
In a straight 1 to 1 comparison of espionage vs research, it IS cheaper to steal techs. I agree.
BUT, we now have a lot of beaker multipliers, and no EP multipliers.
Have a lok at this comparison of what we get at 100% research or espionage
Also, its also a matter of timing. We need Maths & Calendar asap, so that we open Machinery to a GS bulb (and increase our happy cap by another 2). We can research at 0% while we wait for the GS, then we research Optics again at 100%.......
BUT, we now have a lot of beaker multipliers, and no EP multipliers.
Have a lok at this comparison of what we get at 100% research or espionage
Spoiler :
Also, its also a matter of timing. We need Maths & Calendar asap, so that we open Machinery to a GS bulb (and increase our happy cap by another 2). We can research at 0% while we wait for the GS, then we research Optics again at 100%.......
178 ep's
which added to the existing 139, makes 317. Not enough to steal Maths, even with 50% discount.
The base cost of stealing IW is 585.
The discounts/costs we get are:
+16% for distance
-20% for trade routes
-50% for fortify
-----
+24% for espionage spending (this is dependant on the ratio so will actually decrease once we use the slider by roughly half)
It's seemed to work fine in a test game I ran, but yeah, you are right, I forgot to actually consider the effect of multipliers.
The discounts/costs we get are:
+16% for distance
-20% for trade routes
-50% for fortify
-----
+24% for espionage spending (this is dependant on the ratio so will actually decrease once we use the slider by roughly half)
It's seemed to work fine in a test game I ran, but yeah, you are right, I forgot to actually consider the effect of multipliers.
and that obviously burns our existing EP's as well, which we can use at least twice to steal treasury. 
edit: x-post
edit: x-post
Thats fair enough.
It would be nice to see his research, and we can save all those EP's for when we want to conquer him and not waste time bombarding down defenses. We should proabably move our spies back to make sure they live, and to increase the chances of catching his spies. I would say put 1 in Clams and one in Lyons (Iron/Clams/Sugar).
What does everyone think about renaming Lyons or Orleans? Just so we instantly know which is which in our discussions.
Lyons could simply be called 'Sugar' and Orleans could be renamed 'Humbabas Destiny' or something else equally silly.
Any other suggestions?
It would be nice to see his research, and we can save all those EP's for when we want to conquer him and not waste time bombarding down defenses. We should proabably move our spies back to make sure they live, and to increase the chances of catching his spies. I would say put 1 in Clams and one in Lyons (Iron/Clams/Sugar).
What does everyone think about renaming Lyons or Orleans? Just so we instantly know which is which in our discussions.
Lyons could simply be called 'Sugar' and Orleans could be renamed 'Humbabas Destiny' or something else equally silly.
Any other suggestions?
Sorry, missed this before.
We have to avoid CoL until we have at least 1 bulb into Astro. By that time Ramesses will have either died or managed to defend himself.
Thread spamming again.....
More thoughts:
- Woody 2 Warrior should pillage Cows next turn, then the mine, then the farm..... keep pillaging.
- East Fish to whip forge next turn, then start Maoi statues???
- Whip GP Farm in 2 turns, after growth, try to engineer max hammers (you might need to reassign a mine into scientist for 1 turn), after whip, run 0 scientists.
- settler from Production to do Wheat/Iron. 2 workers cottaging clams to help
- after Iron is roaded in Sugar city, road to the Sugar, then chop it.
More thoughts:
- Woody 2 Warrior should pillage Cows next turn, then the mine, then the farm..... keep pillaging.
- East Fish to whip forge next turn, then start Maoi statues???
- Whip GP Farm in 2 turns, after growth, try to engineer max hammers (you might need to reassign a mine into scientist for 1 turn), after whip, run 0 scientists.
- settler from Production to do Wheat/Iron. 2 workers cottaging clams to help
- after Iron is roaded in Sugar city, road to the Sugar, then chop it.
SteelHorse
Deity
Good work neil
Some interesting turn of events.
Brennus may become a monster making a battle for the continent, bloody and lengthy. Looks like his stack increased quite a bit in a short period of time. At 4 cities, even with whips, looks dubious for Rams. If we could save Rams we should, but i dunno. May need to reconsider Brennus from a long term perspective and look to him for some UN votes.Get him to Friendly for trading. Nothing wrong with this. Make our warring on other continents. This may be the best option given the religious make up of the other continents.
Can always consider talking a Rams city and gift to Brens for diplo. And get the wipeout accomplishment as others have suggested. But need to decide now.
Random Thoughts.
Agree on economics of stealing math is unclear versus self research and that seeing Brennus research is the best use of EP.
Commerce is building a Market, did I miss in the PPP. Is it better to build Parth for fail gold? Or just building gold for now?
Need some harbors build.
We should settle center 2N of steel soon and cottage.
Will Brennus trade math if we get him to Friendly? How much more to get there? Should we give Aes and see if that cheers him up a bit more? Yet another reason to DoW Rams?
Would be nice to get that 50g from Rams. Worth the risk of selling a tech to worst enemy? How quickly does that decay?
Is another option is to skip Math/Cal for now and go directly to Machinery/Optics to get the Caravels sailing? Or does that mess up the bub strategy?
Does Brennus declare at Pleased?
Also noticed that Mass Media is not on tech path to FT1. Maybe a religious victory instead of diplo
In any event, traveling in 24 hours and likely limited to a smartphone access. So good luck.
Some interesting turn of events.
Brennus may become a monster making a battle for the continent, bloody and lengthy. Looks like his stack increased quite a bit in a short period of time. At 4 cities, even with whips, looks dubious for Rams. If we could save Rams we should, but i dunno. May need to reconsider Brennus from a long term perspective and look to him for some UN votes.Get him to Friendly for trading. Nothing wrong with this. Make our warring on other continents. This may be the best option given the religious make up of the other continents.
Can always consider talking a Rams city and gift to Brens for diplo. And get the wipeout accomplishment as others have suggested. But need to decide now.
Random Thoughts.
Agree on economics of stealing math is unclear versus self research and that seeing Brennus research is the best use of EP.
Commerce is building a Market, did I miss in the PPP. Is it better to build Parth for fail gold? Or just building gold for now?
Need some harbors build.
We should settle center 2N of steel soon and cottage.
Will Brennus trade math if we get him to Friendly? How much more to get there? Should we give Aes and see if that cheers him up a bit more? Yet another reason to DoW Rams?
Would be nice to get that 50g from Rams. Worth the risk of selling a tech to worst enemy? How quickly does that decay?
Is another option is to skip Math/Cal for now and go directly to Machinery/Optics to get the Caravels sailing? Or does that mess up the bub strategy?
Does Brennus declare at Pleased?
Also noticed that Mass Media is not on tech path to FT1. Maybe a religious victory instead of diplo
In any event, traveling in 24 hours and likely limited to a smartphone access. So good luck.
Similar threads
