SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts

[SteelHorse]

Just wanted to pop in and say WOW! We are doing amazing!!
May I take the opportunity to point out democracy so that we can build the SoL? Not sure how much it will help though. 4400 beakers and 1500 hammers (actually much less because of Ind, Copper and other buildings). That basically means a free pop in every city. Every city running a Eng spec would mean +2 hammers and 32 (so far) cities means 64 hammers per turn. Not a big benefit really and would take around 90 turns for SoL to pay off purely on the hammer basis assuming a 1:1 ratio of conversion for hammers to beakers. (I haven't taken multipliers into account since they effect everything).

Dem is off the path to FT1. At non GoldAge rates probably about 6 turns. Not sure we can get 6 turns of benefit from SoL. If we can trade for Dem and still get the SoL that would be useful as I suspect we will soon be running artists in our culture cities, scientists in out beaker cities, and merchants in our gold cities.

How do we plan to deal with Emanc unhappiness? Could we perhaps whenever it comes to it, use the Esp slider to revolt AI back to whatever civic we are running? It will have to happen once every 25 turns or so or my solution is we could vassal two AI (killing one off completely) to get a super vassal, get close to the dom limit and then this super vassal will actually be good enough to research techs for us and we won't be relying on a gamble.

We are at 38% Land from Dom now. Two vassals I suspect will put us over the limit. Not sure if one alone would do it. Perhaps we can bribe folks out of Emance. That said, our happy caps are quite high at the moment and once we finish off brens and Rams the number of will decrease.

We should make sure that one city is behind in culture because if we get all 3 cities to legendary by accident purely by their CPT, that would suck A LOT.

I think on the contrary we will be culture bombing to get to 50K.

We currently have 38% of the 64% land required for Dom. Pop is negligible since we WILL get that easily. SB and Saladin are an ideal target because ALL of their cities are coastal or one off coast. If we capture the cities quickly, SB won't have any chance to retaliate. We could kill him off completely, take most of Saladin's cities, kill his stack and vassal him. Gift him all of SB's cities and get him to research for us.

How are vassals treated from a land perspective? I like this idea, but it assumes SB+Sal as a vassal will not put us over. Still have good chunks of land that we will take from Brens and Rams and cultural expand into. maybe another 7-8%?

 

[neilmeister]

Half of a vassals land counts towards the domination limit. There is at least another 10% on our continent.

That is some good analysis of your own SH. Yes, i agree we wont get 3 legendary without bombing.

We dont have to put all our eggs in 1 basket though.

I still kind of like paris & gp farm as the leading candidates. I know paris has an academy, but it also has a lot of ancient culture buildings. Running artists will still produce 3 bpt before its 135% multipliers. It has enough hammers to build more cathedrals and other culture buildings, it has towns in case we need slider at the end.

GP Farm has NE obviously, and will be running artists for culture bombs. It has existing culture buildings and has enough hammers to build the multipliers required. So it seems reasonable to me

Commerce is a pure science play, and once it finishes its levee, it can work towns & scientists exclusively and still have lotsof hammers.

Heliopolis will be a hammer monster, so will thebes. We can start preparing both of these to be culture backups, with expensive wonders and even buddhist & confused cathedrals (we should be building confused & buddhist temples everywhere)

We only have 1 confusd monastery, in West Fish, so it will have to build a few more missionaries

Same goes for christian missionaries

 

[Deckhand]

Has this been discussed on the Maintenance thread?

You are EITHER the United Nations Secretary General OR the Apostolic Palace Resident. Completed! Voted AP Resident (t180)

I assumed this condition applied on the turn of victory. Not that we could achieve it once and be done.

I will download the latest save, read some of the posts, and post a PPP tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Trystero]

Yes - technically that condition can only be met on the turn of victory, but given the current state of the game, there is almost no way that we won't be the AP resident for the rest of the game. I (ab)used my executive powers to take it off our "to do" list.

Glad to have you back DH. It was not clear to me from SteelHorse's response if he wants to play a few more turns. Would that be OK with you? I would like to maximize the number of turns you and he can play since the next player would not be available until mid-December and both of you missed quite a few of the early turnsets.

 

[neilmeister]

Yes, as long as we never research Mass Media and obsolete AP, we will always be resident.

Once we eliminate Brennus there will be no-one else to vote for, and we have about 90% of the votes.

 

[Deckhand]

I agree that Steelhorse should play as long as he wants.
Certainly finish off Egypt. And Celtia too if that's the plan.
It might be best for him to play at least 3 turns to finish the golden age. Then my planning would be based on sustainable yields.

Don't forget the civics switch. Hopefully we are switching to Rep; what else?
We aren't relying on garrisons for much happiness. I assume learned Rep after the GA started.
The Great General sitting in Paris isn't satisfying the people's need to feel safe. Maybe a unit should be moved there sometime.
Are we going to build privateers?

 

[Trystero]

The Great General sitting in Paris isn't satisfying the people's need to feel safe. Maybe a unit should be moved there sometime.

Yeah, that was my fault:

Aw, crud. When I was looking at the save game I accidentally moved the garrison warrior out of Paris (toward Commerce). I've uploaded that save. No harm done, but please remember to move the warrior back next turn. My apologies

 

[Deckhand]

Aw, crud. When I was looking at the save game I accidentally moved the garrison warrior out of Paris (toward Commerce). I've uploaded that save. No harm done, but please remember to move the warrior back next turn. My apologies

OH

Lots of unread posts.


edit CROSSPOST

 

[neilmeister]

AI Behaviour

Of the 4 remaining AI (OK, soon to be 4), only one of them can DoW at Pleased, and that is Qin. He cannot DoW at Friendly.

SB & Saladin
They are currently Pleased (no religion or civic bonuses), SB is almost Friendly. Saladin is only Pleased due to the shared Holy War. He also only requires 10 traded techs to get a permanent +1, and again we must be close to this. They cannot DoW us.

Qin & Hammy
They are currently Friendly, and we need another +1 with both Qin & Hammy to ensure they stay at Friendly when we switch out of Beauro, we are currently getting this +1 with Qin due to Holy War, and we will get it from Hammy from shared war with Brennus. Both Hammy & Qin require 10 techs traded to them for each permanent +1, and we should be getting close to this limit for both of them.

Therefore, as long as we don't trade with their worst enemies or resist requests, none of the remaining AI can DoW us.

So, I suggest we focus the next 30-40 turns on getting as far up the tech tree as possible, dragging the AI along so they can contribute.

Getting a strong vassal and directing their research would be nice, but lets face it, only getting Qin & Hammy would be worthwhile, as SB & Saladin both suck, even if we conquered one and gave all their cites to the other.

The military & diplo cost of doing this would be huge. We would need to research Rifling (something the AI loves researching), build a large army costing us lots in maintenance, and we would diminish our ability to trade techs.

After our cities are safely on the research path, Christo Redentor built, with sushi installed everywhere, tons of specialists and running out of things to build, then we can worry about whipping a military and conquering the only things we really want from the other hemisphere:
- MoM (from SB)
- Shrine (from either Saladin or Hammy or Qin if he builds Taoist shrine)
- enough land to get us near and then over the domination limit

 

[neilmeister]

It might be best for him to play at least 3 turns to finish the golden age. Then my planning would be based on sustainable yields.

Don't forget the civics switch. Hopefully we are switching to Rep; what else?
We aren't relying on garrisons for much happiness. I assume learned Rep after the GA started.
Are we going to build privateers?

We were planning to switch to Rep, Caste & Free Speech in 2 turns. We only learned Consitution a few turns ago.

All Banks must be whipped.

A few privateers would be great, mainly to protect our continent from foreign spies.

 

[Trystero]

Also, Memphis is both the Confused and Christian holy city. If the GP due next turn in a GPro, then we could build the Christian Shrine in Memphis and own all 3 shrines we'd need, as well as making Memphis a nice commerce city once we spread the religions around (we already have 19 confucian cities, but only 5 christian).

 

[neilmeister]

Very long term tentative tech plan - comments & scorn welcome

US: these are techs we will research by ourselves:
- Replacement Parts -> Steam Power -> Assembly Line (for levee's & factories, sooner these are up the better)

- Physics -> Electricity -> Radio (mainly for Christo Redentor, and because the AI won't be going deep on tech tree)

- Industrialism for Marines, Industrial Parks and eventually Tanks

- Refrigeration -> Superconductors -> Genetics Becaue we have all the pre-reqs and Laboratories could help a lot.


AI:
- We need to immediately trade them Paper/Edu/Economics so we can bribe them into Free Market, each one that goes Mercantilism costs us ~30 raw commerce a turn.
- We should also gift SB Chemistry, so Steel becomes available to him.

What is realistic on their research:
- Steel (highly likely)
- Rifling (highly likely, especially if we trade RP away)
- Railroad (quite likely, if we trade Steel (when we get it) & Steam Power around)
- Combustion (reasonable, especially if we can wait for it)
- Flight (possible)
- Artillery (possible)
- Rocketry (possible)

The only remaining required techs after that are:
- Plastics
- Satellites
- Composites
- Advanced Flight
- Stealth
We aren't going to be trading for any of these, barring some miracle.

 

[neilmeister]

Also, Memphis is both the Confused and Christian holy city. If the GP due next turn in a GPro, then we could build the Christian Shrine in Memphis and own all 3 shrines we'd need, as well as making Memphis a nice commerce city once we spread the religions around (we already have 19 confucian cities, but only 5 christian).

For sure, if we get a Prophet, its definitely for the shrine.

We need 1 confused missionary, to spread to GP Farm, has to be built in West Fish

We have 2 Christain mishes heading towards our core cities, and Isca could/should build them almost exclusively once it has finished the bank.

 

[Revent]

Glad to see smart tech choicing here!
I think we should beeline Superconductors. The faster we get there, the faster our research will be boosted. Following that, beeline Assembly line (slip in Radio somewhere here perhaps).
Obviously, this is very rough, but I hope you guys get the idea!

Edit: Looking at the GS tech preferences and it seems we are locked down by fission which is a dead end tech
Fiber Optics and Computers are the only good techs that it will bulb for us, so honestly, we may actually be better off running GM's and raising the slider perhaps?

 

[Revent]

As for vassaling, I do think we could leave that towards the end when we have Christo and a HUGE military lead on the AI. Ie stuff like Tanks versus Rifles
So what we could do is grow like mad via Sushi and then when we get the required tech to do so, whip out an army in two or three turns and take it over and vassal them. (We could probably calculate beforehand the dom limit to be honest). One super AI could then do something for us via their Emp research bonuses (and the bonuses they get for each era). Even if two techs are researched by them, that is two techs we DON'T have to research whilst putting us closer to another VC!

 

[neilmeister]

Glad to see smart tech choicing here!
I think we should beeline Superconductors. The faster we get there, the faster our research will be boosted. Following that, beeline Assembly line (slip in Radio somewhere here perhaps).
Obviously, this is very rough, but I hope you guys get the idea!

Edit: Looking at the GS tech preferences and it seems we are locked down by fission which is a dead end tech
Fiber Optics and Computers are the only good techs that it will bulb for us, so honestly, we may actually be better off running GM's and raising the slider perhaps?

Assembly Line first seems obvious to me, as levee's will double the base hammers in a reasonable number of our cities and factories/coal plants will add +75% to our hammers, making our current +25% bonus a +100% bonus.

Laboratories will be nice, but they will make our two best science cities go from +235% and +135% to +260% and +160% respectively. So its a much smaller relative change than levee/factory/coal plants.

After Assembly Line, the free GS from Physics should still be available, and I would like it very much.

After Physics, we could prioritise Superconductors over Electricity->Radio. Depends really. Though Christo Redentor is very appealing.


At this stage I think most great people will be used for Corps, Golden Ages or Culture bombing. A GS at this stage gets us not much more beakers than 1 turn at 100%.

 

[neilmeister]

As for vassaling, I do think we could leave that towards the end when we have Christo and a HUGE military lead on the AI. Ie stuff like Tanks versus Rifles
So what we could do is grow like mad via Sushi and then when we get the required tech to do so, whip out an army in two or three turns and take it over and vassal them. (We could probably calculate beforehand the dom limit to be honest). One super AI could then do something for us via their Emp research bonuses (and the bonuses they get for each era). Even if two techs are researched by them, that is two techs we DON'T have to research whilst putting us closer to another VC!

Agreed 100%

Vassaling with Tanks sounds smart to me.
All I really want (and expect) from the AI is Steel, Rifling, Railroad and hopefully Combustion.

edit: I just hope they have upgraded all of their spearmen by then

 

[Revent]

Assembly Line first seems obvious to me, as levee's will double the base hammers in a reasonable number of our cities and factories/coal plants will add +75% to our hammers, making our current +25% bonus a +100% bonus.

Laboratories will be nice, but they will make our two best science cities go from +235% and +135% to +260% and +160% respectively. So its a much smaller relative change than levee/factory/coal plants.

After Assembly Line, the free GS from Physics should still be available, and I would like it very much.

After Physics, we could prioritise Superconductors over Electricity->Radio. Depends really. Though Christo Redentor is very appealing.


At this stage I think most great people will be used for Corps, Golden Ages or Culture bombing. A GS at this stage gets us not much more beakers than 1 turn at 100%.

I don't know about Superconductors before Radio. CR will save us quite a few turns or so. But will going SC before getting SR save us more turns overall? I'm for either but I really do not want to lose CR as this will probably be the most crucial late game wonder for us!

 

[neilmeister]

I don't see much chance of us missing out on CR, we have been gifting away techs all over the place and we still have a massive tech lead.

The AI just can't keep up and its only going to get worse for them once we have all of our sushi/representation scientists going.

 

[SteelHorse]

Glad to have you back DH. It was not clear to me from SteelHorse's response if he wants to play a few more turns. Would that be OK with you? I would like to maximize the number of turns you and he can play since the next player would not be available until mid-December and both of you missed quite a few of the early turnsets.

If DH is ready he can take it. Otherwise I can get a couple of turns in either Mon or Tues PM.