SGOTM 17 - Kakumeika

AlanH

Mac addict, php monkey
Moderator
Hall of Fame Staff
GOTM Staff
Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
29,706
Location
England
Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 17 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the
Maintenance Thread
for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

You can find the Game Details in the first post of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, I shall post them in that thread, and edit that post.

Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

Good luck, have fun ... and never trust a mapmaker :mischief:
 
Welcome back Kaitzilla, WastinTime, Sun Tzu Wu, Walter_Wolf, shulec, and Tachywaxon
And a warm welcome to sossos and TheMeInTeam!

Please read the rules of play. I'd like to return to a more structured planning and discussion if possible this game. This includes reviewing the grand strategy each turn. Please read through the rules even if you think you know them.

If you want to suggest any changes please let me know.

The Rules of Play

1. All standard GOTM rules apply. Mainly, we get 1 shot, no replays, period!
2. No viewing other team threads, period!
3. Have FUN, compete fairly, argue your points until your fingers bleed, or you convince a majority that your plan is superior!

The following rules have been stolen from Murky Waters and editted, all credit given to Erkon.

The following rules apply to all players in the Kakumeika SGOTM 17 team.

Ensure that you have read and understood the rules provided by the administrators (C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread)* and follow any ongoing discussion at the SGOTM 17 Maintenance Thread

The next player shall post a ”got it” within 24 hours of the upload of the previous game. Else the next available player has the right to post the ”got it”. These rules replaces guideline 6 and 7 in the C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread. To ensure a smooth handover, please post the ”got it” within 24 hours.

After posting the "got it" please put up a roughdraft of a the Grand Strategy and a Goal Oriented Pre-Play-Plan (PPP) within 24 hours of the "got it". If you can't for whatever reason put up a roughdraft of your PPP within 24 hours of the got it please request to postpone or pass your turn to the next player.

To facilitate the group consensus style of play we had in the last game and to make it easier for active player and the team to be involved I suggest a 3 part planning process for turns starting with the grand strategy.

The grand strategy is the strategy that we currently are pursuing to win the game. It was suggested that we keep the grand strategy on the first page. I'm happy to reserve a space and do that, however I think it is should also be copied and posted again before each turn set by the active player so that it is fresh in that player's mind and we don't miss some opportunity to change the plan for the better.

So I suggest the active player copy, review, and suggest changes to the grand strategy before they plan the goals and details of their turn set. The grand strategy would include the victory condition (conquest for this game) and the stages or phases of the game we need to achieve that victory condition.

For example the Ducks grand strategy in the sgotm15 game was something like (*just for example purposes--not sure this is exactly right*)
-Goal Fastest Conquest
-expand and set up bulb of mathematics and chop out key city improvements
-build the Oracle and get Code of Laws
-settle and grow 6-8 cities
-generate enough great scientists to bulb to astronomy
-switch to war effort and kill everything including the wizard

An individual turn set would probably only happen in one of the phases that I laid out in the example above, but it is important for us to review the grand strategy before we make the specific plans for our turn sets.

Our grand strategy will obviously develop as we learn more about the game through exploration, testing and discussion and could completely change depending on how things develop.

Once the grand strategy is reviewed by the active player and the current turn is put into that context, the active player can develop a more specific plan for their turn set but still goal orientated rather than planned out with micro.

The player can post a goal oriented Pre-Play-Plan (PPP)
The goal oriented PPP would include:
research (& research trades)
city builds (not tile use)
worker goals (not turn by turn movements)
diplo actions (including resource trades, war declarations, begs, etc)
civic changes planned
espionage
general war plans if applicable, i.e. take this city first or form stack here
stopping points
contingency plans

The purpose of posting a goal oriented PPP first is to save the active player some work. The other players would be asked to suggest changes to the goal oriented PPP before the micro details (turn by turn city builds, tile use, worker movements, whips, chops, war movements) are planned out.

Once the specific goals are agreed upon, then the active player can develop a micro plan which includes the micro details the team thinks this is necessary. (Or the active player can request help with an aspect of the micro from someone else on the team)

Once the micro PPP is produced (same as the goal oriented PPP just with micro details), another round of feedback can start if necessary.

Of course in the course of working out the specific goals, or the micro new opportunities might arise, so it might not be a linear process.

After the goal oriented PPP is posted give the team at least 24 hours to respond. Do you best to respond quickly to any feedback by editting your PPP or by posting why you disagree. We hope to keep this response time to maximum of 48 hours, however if there is still a lot of disargeement after 48 hours, I'll extend this discussion period.

After the 24 hours (minimum) discussion time, post a detailed PPP with all necessary micro and allow another 24 hours for players to comment. If possible after that post a time 12-24 hours in advance of when you intend to play to allow others to either follow by online chat or just to be online for posts.

We are also encouraging players to chat online if possible during their turnsets so an availiable team member can be consulted for significant unexpected events or just to be included for exciting developments as you play. This may not be possible for everyone and we will exchange contact info for those interested by pm.

We also encourage you to stop playing a turnset and upload if something unexpected and/or unplanned for happens.

No-one is forced to play a turn set. You don’t need to announce the reason for skipping a turn set. Any players can swap turn sets if they announce the swap in time. I request you to make it clear when you intend to skip a turn. Please post as quick as possible to reduce unnecessary confusion and delays.

Please use smilies and emotes in your posts as much as possible. Jokes, humor, sarcasm and offensive language can and will be misinterpreted. Remember that written text is a poor method to convey feelings. Several of us are not native to the English language. The differences in culture is also a source for misunderstanding. If you get upset by a post, please wait a few hours before you respond.

We hope we can come to a consensus on most issues, but if we can not it should be decided by the active player after the team has debated the issue. If you run into a situation where you need advice, please upload the save and let the rest of us take a look. Or post a quick request for advice. It’s better to delay the game a day than build the Globe Theatre in the wrong city. Don't be afraid to admit a mistake or off-plan move as well. We all will make some especially with difficulty of tracking so many details.

Don’t promote units until they are close to action (unless the promotion increases movement). If you are unsure of suitable promotions, don’t hesitate to bring that up for discussion.

Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke). Don’t play when you are too tired. Or when you have your kids/wife screaming at you.

Try to keep track of the diplomatic events each turn, and visit each city regularly. It’s mandatory to check cities that grow or have a border expansion. Remember that the number of happy people will change due to changes in war weariness (WW), gained/lost resources etc. Keep track of specialists. We don’t want to pollute the great person pool. Please respect the micro management plans.

Please contact AlanH if your game crashes, even if you can repeat all your moves.

If you PM the team, please ensure every one receives a copy.

Remember that a lot of players read what we post. Don't be rude or disrespectful to any player not on our team.

Try to run a test game or two before we start. Your experience may either confirm or contradict some one else's, and is therefore valuable.

The goals for Kakumeika are
1) to get the GOLD!
2) learn something through exhaustive debate about the grand strategy, the goals for each turn set, the inner-workings of the code, and best micro plans.
3) have fun ('cause learning is fun )

Ensure that your autosave config is set to save every turn. Don't forget to enable all HOF settings in case you lost them during a dual-install or whatever reason. And set the first-turn-setting to first turn = 0. This will reduce future confusion.

When you state the turn/year research is completed (or any other event), please use the turn you get the report. ****This is a change from the last game**** So if the research for polytheism shows it will be completed at the end of T12 then when T13 starts we get the report of our completion of polytheism. Please report that polytheism finished on T13. Or if we build an axeman and it will finish at the end of T25, report that it finished on T26 (the first turn that we can actually move the axeman).

When we have uploaded the final save, and this has been reported by the active player, you are free to read other team threads. When their game is over, you are free to post in their threads as well.
 
reserved for game summary

1. Sun Tzu Wu
2. mabraham
3. Walter_Wolf
4. bcool
5. Tachywaxon
6. sossos
7. Kaitzilla
8. WastinTime
 
I think we have to address the ongoing debate about how we want to play this game, given the discussion started last sgotm about the resource trades.

I think we have as a team been about getting the best outcome by all legal means. We dive into the code to find details about AI behavior, we maximized OF hammers, we tech trade, we steal workers and make ceasefires and steal more, we maximize failure gold on wonders, etc.

Personally, I think we should continue playing this way. So if it makes sense to make multiple resource trades with a single AI by giving them the gold to make it happen and then canceling that gold per turn trade so be it.

No game is perfect. We must play with the limitations of the game. We are going to exploit every weakness in the enemy we can (the enemy being the AI). This seems the fairest way to set up the competition to me.

We of course are also going to play by the posted rules of the sgotm competition and abide by the decisions of the game administrators.

Hopefully, the others involved in the competition will respect that any team is welcome to play how they want within the official rules. I have no interest in telling other teams how to play the game, and I hope you don't either.
 
I am against using the subsidy exploit.









Start image for quick reference:
sgtom17startpic_zpsd275b720.png
 
Welcome back bcool, Kaitzilla, shulec, Tachywaxon, Walter_Wolf and WastinTime!
Welcome sossos and TheMeInTeam to Team 革命家!

The starting save is available on Feb 22nd. Until then, I'd suggest that we create test game starts using all the information that has been provided about them. We need several basic maps with different geographical separations between us and the AIs:

1) Shore separation requires Galleys
2) Ocean separation requires Galleons
3a) Mountain range separation requires Paratroopers
3b) Arctic Ice flows separation requires Paratroopers

Mountains and Impassable Ice are effectively the same in that only units that can capture cities that can pass through them is Paratroopers.

Are there any other significant means of geographic separation?

We need to consider combinations of these separations, including the unlikely possibility of no separations at all:

X. No separation from any AIs
a. Some AIs separated by Shore
b. Some AIs separated by Shore, others separated by Ocean
c. Some AIs separated by Shore, others by Ocean, still others by Impassable
d. Some AIs separated by Ocean
e. Some AIs separated by Ocean, others by Impassable
f. Some AIs separated by Impassable

All six of the above assume land access to Some AIs. We get another six possibilities by assuming no land access to any AIs.

Thirteen possible combinations of geographic separation is far too many. We need to reduce this to a hand full. We can ignore Shore since the early technology Sailing provides access rather early via Galleys.

We can have two basic starts. Isolated with option "e" (All AIs beyond Ocean and Impassable) and non-isolated with option "e" (Some AIs beyond Ocean and Impassable). The Impassable terrain can be removed whenever we learn no AI is beyond it.

EDIT: From the Pre-Game discussion thread: Start is Standard size with about 1600 plots (total including water plots), later verified to be exactly 52 x 32. The start must also have Mediation, Polytheism and Monotheism technologies set as not known to the Player and all AIs, so the corresponding religions are founded as though the game were an Ancient Era start rather than Classical as it really is.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Personally, I think we should continue playing this way. So if it makes sense to make multiple resource trades with a single AI by giving them the gold to make it happen and then canceling that gold per turn trade so be it.

+1. I vote we use it, and any other legal means, to win. I consider ignoring valid options comparable to deliberately choosing bad micro plans over good ones.

Are there any other significant means of geographic separation?

Lakes that do not allow seafaring units to be constructed, but that have opponents on the other side. Basically another situation like peaks unless they let forts bridge to it.
 
bcool said:
Personally, I think we should continue playing this way. So if it makes sense to make multiple resource trades with a single AI by giving them the gold to make it happen and then canceling that gold per turn trade so be it.

+1. I vote we use it, and any other legal means, to win. I consider ignoring valid options comparable to deliberately choosing bad micro plans over good ones.

I am also in favor of doing everything legally permitted by SGOTM rules to win the game as early as possible.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke).

We shall don't trust TMIT then.
pixel_troll_face_by_kfalicov-d55cwfq.png


EDIT: Fail of me. He doesn't play...

==============================================================
==============================================================

I think we should move the scout on that forest GH south and the archer 1NW.
Maybe something 2NW may justify the settlement on the banana.

We should test, but chopping first seems strong.
 
Map Type guessing using as reference:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/reference/map_scripts_guide.php

The following map types are 52 x 32 at Standard size:

Fantasy Realm
Inland Sea
Lakes
Mirror
Oasis

I may have easily missed and I'm fairly sure the reference I picked doesn't cover all BtS 3.19 map types. Please add to the list.

So far Fantasy Realm has my vote. It has some very strange settings that may make a map makers job easier to create a strange map.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
If it's fantasy realm, the setting must be logical and not irrational. I've seen irrational in WOTM48 and what we see is a lot of tundra/desert corns and silver plots on grasslands. In summary, badlands.
 
Early findings:

  • The map is definitely not Fantasy Realm. Even with balance resources, it would still look whackadoo!
  • Settlers and workers cost the same as ancient starts.
  • There are no buildings automatically built when a city is founded. (Probably explains the why the settler cost is the same.)
  • Horses and copper are revealed, but not iron.
  • The AI start with 4 Archers, 2 scouts, 2 workers and one settler.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0053_zps6e8eaef0.jpg


Here is a test game that allows for hidden resources in fogged tiles. It can be easily be transformed into a usable test game. I used a rainforest map because I saw all the bananas.
 

Attachments

Whatever the map type, we should maybe expect heavy modification by the map maker.

Right now, I'm thinking the map may be based on Lakes. Thanks Tachywaxon and shulec for your input on the map type. Any lake that is 10 plots or larger should be automatically transformed into a Sea which explains how our start has seafood in it.

Also, remember that wrap is flat and options are:

Culture flip after conquest
No Vassals
No Tribal Villages
No Events

In the CFC download area, there should be a spreadsheet for all BtS map types providing x and y lengths for each mapsize from Duel through Huge. I can't seem to find it, even with google. Can someone please post that link?

shulec, thanks for quickly generating a test game.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
It occurs to me that two Bananas and a Crab is a very strange starting location, since Bananas are usually in tropical areas and Crab is usually near either polar region.

Not sure whether we should ignore these details as map maker artifacts or are these clues to the base map type?

Any ideas about a map type that matches our start?

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Checking in

Welcome to the new members. Be prepared for a loong thread :D.

Where is mabraham btw? still skiing?
 
Given the AI starts with 2 workers and working stealing might be seriously pondered in this non-teching game, the questions are:

  • Are those 4 archers under UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE. I assume yes.
  • We shall look the leader for bragging function as soon we meet it given copper/horses are revealed.
 
Given the AI starts with 2 workers and working stealing might be seriously pondered in this non-teching game, the questions are:

  • Are those 4 archers under UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE. I assume yes.
  • We shall look the leader for bragging function as soon we meet it given copper/horses are revealed.

I think it is possible that this will be a non-teching game, but not likely. I assume there will be an ocean and/or land barrier that will require teching to Astronomy, if not further to paratroopers as STW suggested.
 
Hmm true. I tend to forgot swede sometimes try to be evil. Sometimes.
The most common we'll see is a continent-like map layout and we do not tech till Astro, we bulb through Astro. Reminder, we do not have Meditation.
 
+1. I vote we use it, and any other legal means, to win. I consider ignoring valid options comparable to deliberately choosing bad micro plans over good ones.

+1. Instead of just exploiting the AI 100 different ways, lets use all 101 available to us.
 
Back
Top Bottom